"TIME OUT!" Alan Dershowitz And Mustafa Barghouti Debate Aaron Bushnell and Israel-Hamas

well pressure is again intensifying on

Israel after US vice president kamla

Harris called for a ceasefire in Gaza

and rebuked the humanitarian catastrophe

there opinions on the war are sharply

divided in America Israel's most

important Ally a fact lay bare by the

death of us Amon Aaron bushnel last week

the 25-year-old set himself a light

outside the Israeli Embassy in

Washington DC shouting free Palestine

and declaring he would no longer be

complicit in genocide well presidential

candidate Dr Cornell West stood up

controversy by posting the following to

X let us ever forget the extraordinary

courage and commitment of brother Aaron

Bushnell who died for truth and Justice

I pray for his precious loved ones let

us rededicate ourselves to genuine

solidarity with Palestinians undergoing

genocidal attacks in real time well many

Jewish commentators said Dr West

comments encourage political violence by

those oppos to Israel's existence but

joining me now to discuss his

controversial post is the independent

president candidate Professor Cornell

West Cornell great to see you thank you

very much for coming back on uncensored

um always a blessing to being

conversation with you my brother and the

feeling is is very mutual let me just

just ask you many people were pretty

surprised by the tone of your uh of your

Tweet not least the fact that you would

categorize what Aaron bushnel did as

extraordinary courage and commitment uh

many people think it was the act of

somebody quite possibly

very seriously mentally ill taking his

life in dramatic circumstances and that

that was not necessarily consistent with

being courageous or

committed well one is that U you think

of ko the younger when he killed himself

as the Roman Empire began to emerge and

the Roman Republic was collapsing and

Ko's killing of himself has become one

of the grand examples of moral courage

and a willingness to Bear witness as to

something that he deeply opposed now I

think it's very interesting that so many

of the people who were critical of me

talking about the courage of my dear

brother Aaron that they don't understand

the depths and scope of the suffering

right now in Gaza and too many of them

actually are even indifferent to the

genocide they're indifferent to the

ethnic cleansing they're indifferent to

the apar like conditions and so I can

understand them saying well I am

promoting violence by acknowledging the

tremendous courage in to engage in a

moral witness in which you kill yourself

as a way of calling attention not to

yourself but to suffering of precious

Palestinians in Gaza that's what Aaron

was doing in the same way Kato was doing

the same thing when they saw Julius

Caesar moving into the highest position

and it was clear that the Republic was

coming to a close and the empire was

being established and there's a whole

host of examples of people who bear

Witness by killing themselves let me ask

you this suicide no that's not the point

it's the cause that they are bearing

witness to and that's where my

difference with so many of my deeply

conservative and and moderate Jewish

brothers and sisters comes in if they're

indifferent to the suffering in Gaza

then it's going to be difficult for me

even have a conversation because for me

it's a state of emergency for me we need

a sense of urgency this these massacres

are taking place before our very eyes we

ought to be on fire we ought to be

deeply concerned let me ask you this

would you have said the same thing if

this Airman had killed himself in this

manner outside the Palestinian Embassy

in Washington DC if there is one

whatever the the uh central location is

for Palestinians in Washington the day

after October the 7th and reversed it

and said I'm doing this in response to

the horror committed by Hamas on Jewish

people in Israel would you have felt the

same way about what

happened oh absolutely murder is murder

though brother that when you kill

innocent people when you kill civilians

those are crimes against humanity now I

have a larger indictment of Israeli apar

I have a larger indictment of the

Israeli occupation of Palestinians but

anytime any organized group kills

innocent people especially innocent

children I will be in opposition that's

true for US troops that's true for

British troops that's true for the IDF

that's true for Iranian troops that's

true for Chinese troops that's true for

Indian troops any

organized Army that kills innocent

people especially children

for me is murder I'm morally consistent

in that regard and that therefore if

somebody kills themselves in order to

call attention to the suffering of

precious innocent people especially

precious innocent children I am going to

acknowledge that courage and say it's

wrong it's wrong it's wrong and I don't

mind being morally consistent and

therefore having people thoroughly

misunderstand me because I do not look

at the world through a narrow set of

ideological lens I try to stay in

contact with the humanity of all

innocent people and all children no

matter what color Palestinian Israeli

Ethiopian Guatemalan I fundamentally

believe that a Palestinian baby has the

same value as an Israeli baby the

problem is you and I know that if

Palestinians were doing this to

Israelis

Biden Harris blinkin all of these folks

who are enabling this genocide enabling

these crimes against humanity they would

have a very different view because

they're not morally consistent they

don't believe that a Palestinian life

has the same value as an Israeli I

certainly do but I certainly think I

certainly do but I also believe that the

the purest definition of genocide is

hamas's view of uh Jewish people in

Israel they want to get rid of all of

them they've made it very clear publicly

since October the 7th that they want to

commit that kind of atrocity again and

again and again and just get rid of all

jewi people in Israel that actually is

the purest definition of genocide isn't

it well genocide has to do with intent

as well as execution would you accept

the

Hamas when Hamas was founded in

1988 as a response to vious Israeli

occupation they were wrong they were

calling for the forms of violent

resistance that too often did include

killing innocent folk because of course

innocent Palestinians had been killed

for 75 years by the IDF and others they

did change their Charter there's been

struggles within the Hamas itself and

the Palestinian people themselves

are how would you put it the Palestinian

people themselves are resisting with

tremendous dignity and Hamas has emerged

as a major institutional vehicle and

that institutional vehicles for me does

involve crimes against humanity when

they kill innocent Folk they've em let's

be clear let's be clear they've emerged

as a terrorist terrorist organization

committing acts of mass terrorism I mean

that's what they are know Hamas is a

counterterrorist group responding to the

terrorism of the IDF and responding to

the terrorism of the Israeli State a

counterterrorist group can inv can can

can commit war crimes brother but they

they didn't initiate it at all if

they're founded in

1988 and the terrorism began in 1948

with the state of Israel that's 40 whole

years let's keep in mind I think it's a

stretch to

call undermine the PLO undermine secular

nationalism promote fundamentalist Islam

as a way of dividing Palestinians that's

why Nathan yahu allowed for Gaza allowed

for Hamas to gain to gain access to the

money from Qatar and others keep the

Palestinians divided and therefore not

having to move to deal with the West

there are look there are many things

that we would find agreement on about

the way Palestinians have been treated

for a very long time it has been a

completely unacceptable occupation

should

not but hang on hang on let me I know

let me finish but the idea that you

categorize Hamas after October 7th as

counter terrorists is ridiculous they

are terrorists and they should be called

what they are anyway let me ask you do

do you think the IDF is terrorist when

they kill innocent Palestinians do you

believe I it depends yes or no my

brother yes or no well okay I I would

ask you this if you yes or no yes or no

hang on you're uncensored you're

uncensored my brother and I've been

asked this question before I have

actually tweeted in 2014 I tweeted that

what Israel was doing then was bordering

on terrorism I'm not afraid of using

that analogy bordering on terrorism the

children are being killed right yes of

course they were children killed on

October the 7th I have serious

misgivings about what's happening

currently in Gaza like most people but

what I would say to you if you were the

head of the Israeli government on

October the 7th out of Interest what

would your response have been to that

horrendous terror attack well I I'll

tell you the answer to that question but

I don't know why you just can't say the

IDF is terrorist killers and innocent

people bordering on it it's wrong no

what why you're uncensored you're a free

man tell the truth from your soul tell

let me tell you what I would what I

would do if I was in Israel I would any

occupation I would end The Siege I would

saying I'm committed to Palestinian

dignity I'm committed to Palestinian

equality and we Palestinians and

Israelis we Jews and and and and and

Palestinians we're going to learn how to

live together in the context of equality

and dignity we're going to have Jewish

safety we're going to have Jewish

security that's the very end and aim of

Israel we never see an annihilation of

Jews we'll never see another Massacre or

holy caust of Jews but we'll never see

an ation and and Massacre and and and

and and and and and vicious attacks on

Palestinians either that's what I would

do not just head of Israel that's what

I'll do in the White House brother

that's what I'll do in the white house

and I'll explain to American people why

it is that Biden and Harris and others

continue to enable this genocide and

then when they finally say ceasefire

they act like they ought we ought to

give them a moral Prize or something

after 30,000 precious people have

already been killed yeah listen there's

a lot that you say that I agree with

just to be clear okay no no I I hear you

I hear you okay I just want to read you

what Ben Shapiro said about your Tweet

though about Aaron Bushnell he said our

political environment is facilitating

dangerous Insanity it is easy enough for

people like Cornell West to celebrate

the pseudo heroism of disturbed people

lighting themselves on fire but both the

mentally Disturbed in our society pay

the price for such celebration I mean he

has a point doesn't he you wouldn't want

other people to go and set fire to

themselves

and kill themselves like he did would

you brother I have deep libertarian

sensibilities I believe that people make

choice and they have to take

responsibilities they make decisions

they have to deal with the consequences

I do not promote people killing

themselves not at all but people do a

number of different things I would want

to ask brother Shapiro he's talking

about there's heroes in the Israeli

Defense Forces many of whom are killing

innocent children do do I think that's

sick yes that is morally bankrupt it is

spiritually empty it is ethically

vacuous I come right back at Shapiro

Your Heroes happen to be engaging in

Terrorist activity against Palestinians

and he and you're gonna say Aaron's not

a hero Aaron is a particular person who

exercised a certain kind of witness and

ended up taking the form of killing

himself in order not to bring attention

to himself but to try to give some of

urgency for a genocide do you do you

believe that's what brother super want

to focus on do you believe wants hide

his indifference to the suffering of

Palestinians in the form of attacking

let me ask you how cowardly can you get

my brother do you believe that Aaron

bushnel is a

martyr well martyr and witness really

have the same uh root as you know in the

Greek uh and Martyr means someone who

pays an ultimate cost tied to a higher

cause I believe trying to bring

attention to genocide and bring genocide

to a close is a higher cause and I

believe that his actions was trying to

bring attention to that higher cause so

yes he is a martyr absolutely Dr West uh

always good to talk to you on uncensor

thank blessing stay strong my brother

would you be out to debate all this is

legal scholar and author of war against

the Jews Professor Alan dwizz and the

leader of the Palestinian national

initiative Mustafa barouti well welcome

to both of you um Alan dotz your

response there to Dr West in particular

categorization of Aaron bushnel as a

Marty for setting himself on fire and

and taking his own life in protest what

he said was the genocide of Palestinians

in

Gaza if anybody is going to be a mod

they should take their lives and protest

of hamama using precious children as

human shields uh using a child as a

human shield putting a child a hospital

a school a mosque over Hamas Fighters

and tunnels and other uh weapons that

are used to kill precious Jewish

children is the major reason why so many

civilians particularly so many children

and women have been killed by the way

there is a lower ratio of civilians to

combatants that have been killed in Gaza

than in any Modern Warfare according to

even the Hamas statistics and if you

compare them to the number of people

combatants who have been killed the

ratio is approximately one and a half to

one which is three or four to one the

problem with the problem with that

analogy is that when you actually get

into the statistics and let's accept

this is the Palestinian health authority

it's Hamas run uh but this the numbers

have not been challenged uh as being you

know wildly inaccurate by any other body

but more I'm accepting them for the

moment yeah so more more children have

been killed as a percentage of Civilian

deaths than any other type of conflict

of this nature in Modern Times And the

reason for that is that Gaza Gaza has

two million people of which a million

just over half are under 18 so it's

become de facto a Slaughter of children

that's the problem

well REM remember that Gaza that Hamas

counts anybody under 19 as a child Hamas

recruits children between the ages of 13

and 19 to be terrorists so buy you can't

you can't buy a beer Alan you can't buy

a beer in many American states if you're

under 21 so the definition of what is a

child I

mean but a 19-year-old is not a child a

19-year-old with a gun pointed at an

Israeli who was shot is not a child a

woman who was throwing a bomb at

Israelis is not a child remember too

that my dear friend Cornell also said

that the terrorism by Israel started in

1948 in 1948 Israel was prepared to

accept the two-state solution in a tiny

little State and they were attacked by

all the Arab armies and they fought in

self-defense but Cornell West revealed

his bias against Israel by suggesting

that Israel's terrorism began when it

fought for its own independence and

essentially he's calling for the end of

Israel if he's saying that its