The Rachel Maddow Show 5/18/24 | ð Œðð œð ±ð ² Breaking News May 18, 2024
Summary
TLDRIn a pivotal moment of the criminal trial against former President Donald Trump, his longtime lawyer and 'fixer,' Michael Cohen, testified that Trump personally approved and directed hush money payments to Stormy Daniels during the 2016 campaign. Cohen's testimony aimed to show Trump's direct involvement in a scheme to suppress negative information and benefit his campaign. The prosecution's case relies on establishing Trump's intent and knowledge, while the defense may argue Cohen and others acted without Trump's consent. The trial's outcome could hinge on the jury's perception of the evidence and Trump's involvement.
Takeaways
- ð Michael Cohen recalls being in London for his daughter's 21st birthday and anniversary on October 7th, 2016, the day the Access Hollywood tape was released.
- ð Cohen received a call from Hope Hicks, the communication director for the Trump campaign, informing him about the tape, and also an email from Steve Bannon regarding its potential release.
- ð The email exchange between Cohen, Bannon, and others was about crafting a response to the impending story about Trump's alleged infidelities and the cover-up, showing Cohen as an integral part of the campaign's strategy.
- ð¥ Hope Hicks forwarded an email from David Farenthold of The Washington Post to Cohen, seeking comment on the tape leak, indicating a coordinated effort to manage the narrative.
- ð€ Cohen testified that Trump wanted to spin the Access Hollywood tape as 'locker room talk,' a phrase he claimed Melania Trump suggested, to minimize its impact on the campaign.
- ð¬ Cohen's testimony highlights the active role he played in the Trump campaign's response to allegations and scandals, contradicting any notion of him being a 'rogue employee'.
- ðž Cohen also discussed the hush money payment to Stormy Daniels, stating that Trump personally approved and directed it to protect his campaign, not his family.
- ð£ïž Trump's defense may face challenges countering Cohen's detailed account of events, given his history as Trump's 'fixer' and the evidence presented in court.
- ð The trial's impact on public opinion is yet to be fully understood, but it has not significantly changed views of the candidates thus far according to some polling data.
- ð Outside the court, Trump's trial has become a spectacle with Republican politicians showing support, possibly seeking favor for future political ambitions.
Q & A
What significant event occurred on October 7th, 2016, as mentioned in the trial?
-The release of the Access Hollywood tape, which featured then-presidential candidate Donald Trump making inappropriate comments, occurred on October 7th, 2016.
Who were Hope Hicks and Steve Bannon at the time of the Access Hollywood tape release?
-Hope Hicks was the Communications Director for the Trump campaign, and Steve Bannon was the Campaign Manager for the Trump campaign.
What role did Michael Cohen play in relation to the Access Hollywood tape?
-Michael Cohen received a phone call from Hope Hicks about the tape and was also involved in discussions regarding the strategy to deal with the tape's impact on the campaign.
What was the strategy decided upon to handle the Access Hollywood tape situation?
-The strategy was to spin the tape as 'locker room talk,' a phrase that was suggested by Melania Trump, according to Michael Cohen's testimony.
Who was David Farenthold and what was his involvement in the trial?
-David Farenthold was a reporter from The Washington Post who sent an urgent query to Hope Hicks regarding the Access Hollywood tape leak.
What was the purpose of the email exchange between Hope Hicks and Michael Cohen?
-The email exchange was regarding the potential release of the Access Hollywood tape and how to respond to media inquiries about it.
What does the testimony of Michael Cohen suggest about his role in the Trump campaign?
-Michael Cohen's testimony suggests that he was not a rogue employee but was closely involved with the Trump campaign, participating in key decisions and strategies, including those related to the Access Hollywood tape.
What was the significance of the testimony about Melania Trump's response to the Access Hollywood tape?
-The testimony indicates that Melania Trump was portrayed as a team player in the cover-up, which could undermine any defense strategy that relies on her being unaware or uninvolved in the campaign's response to the tape.
What was the context of the recording made by Michael Cohen involving Donald Trump?
-The recording was made during a conversation about how to structure the payment to reimburse American Media for the money they had advanced to Karen McDougall, to ensure that the story about her alleged affair with Trump would not be published.
What was the prosecution's strategy in having Michael Cohen as a witness?
-The prosecution's strategy was to use Michael Cohen as a key witness to provide a detailed account of the alleged criminal activities, including the payment to Stormy Daniels and the handling of the Access Hollywood tape, situating Trump at the center of these activities.
What is the potential impact of the tapes and testimonies on the jury's perception of Donald Trump?
-The tapes and testimonies could potentially influence the jury's perception of Donald Trump by presenting him as being directly involved in the alleged criminal activities and cover-ups, which could be crucial in establishing intent and consciousness of guilt.
Outlines
ð Trump's Response to the Access Hollywood Tape
In this paragraph, Michael Cohen, former personal lawyer to Donald Trump, recounts his recollection of the events surrounding the release of the Access Hollywood tape in October 2016. Cohen was in London for his daughter's birthday and his anniversary when he received a call from Hope Hicks, then the communication director for the Trump campaign, informing him of the tape's release. He also received an email from Steve Bannon, the campaign manager at the time, discussing the tape. The email exchange involved discussing a strategy to manage the fallout from the tape, with Hicks forwarding an urgent email from the Washington Post seeking comment on the tape. Cohen mentions a phone call with Trump, where the strategy to label the tape's content as 'locker room talk' was decided upon, a phrase allegedly suggested by Melania Trump. This paragraph highlights the coordinated response within the Trump campaign to mitigate the impact of the tape on the election.
ð€ Michael Cohen's Role in Trump's Legal Strategy
This paragraph delves into Michael Cohen's involvement in formulating and executing legal strategies for Donald Trump, particularly in response to allegations of infidelity. It discusses Cohen's role in crafting public statements and managing media narratives, as evidenced by email exchanges with Hope Hicks. The paragraph also touches on the public's perception of Cohen and the reality of his deep integration into Trump's team, contradicting any notion of him being a 'rogue employee'. It highlights the proactive measures taken by the Trump campaign, with Cohen at the helm, to counter allegations and control the narrative, especially in relation to women's allegations against Trump.
ð€ The Political Theater of Trump's Criminal Trial
In this paragraph, the focus shifts to the political implications of Trump's criminal trial. It discusses the presence of Republican politicians, including senators and attorneys general, who are publicly supporting Trump during his trial. The narrative suggests that this support is part of a broader political strategy, with these politicians angling for positions in a potential second Trump administration. The paragraph also contrasts Trump's claims that the trial is preventing him from campaigning with the reality that he is not actively campaigning on his non-trial days. It critiques the behavior of these politicians as 'craven' and 'embarrassing', highlighting the spectacle of the trial and its impact on the Republican party's image.
ð The Contrasting Campaigns of Trump and Biden
This paragraph contrasts the political strategies of Donald Trump and Joe Biden during the presidential campaign. It points out that while Trump is making his criminal trial a central part of his campaign narrative, Biden is focusing on promoting his administration's accomplishments and how they benefit the public. The paragraph also notes that Biden is actively campaigning in swing states, unlike Trump who is often at his club in Florida or at home. The discussion suggests that the two candidates are operating on 'wildly different planets', reflecting the stark contrast in their approaches to the election.
ð¥ Michael Cohen's Testimony on Trump's Alleged Misdeeds
In this paragraph, the discussion centers on Michael Cohen's testimony regarding his interactions with Donald Trump, particularly concerning Stormy Daniels. Cohen details a 2011 conversation with Trump about Daniels, an adult film star, and the efforts to suppress a story about their alleged encounter. The paragraph also touches on Cohen's role in managing negative information about Trump and the implications of these actions for the prosecution's case. It highlights the evidence presented in court, including a recording of Cohen and Trump discussing payments, which could be crucial in establishing Trump's involvement in the alleged criminal activity.
ðŒ Trump's Involvement in Hush Money Payments
The paragraph focuses on the details of the hush money payments allegedly orchestrated by Donald Trump, with Michael Cohen's testimony providing a timeline and context for these transactions. It discusses the payments to Stormy Daniels and the involvement of American Media, Inc. (AMI), which advanced money to Karen McDougal. The paragraph reveals a recording where Trump and Cohen discuss making payments in cash to avoid a paper trail, underscoring Trump's alleged desire to keep the transactions secret. This evidence is crucial for the prosecution's case, as it implicates Trump directly in the scheme to suppress negative information during his presidential campaign.
ð³ïž The Legal and Political Implications of Trump's Actions
This paragraph explores the legal and political ramifications of the actions described in the trial. It discusses the potential strategies of Trump's defense, including the possibility of pleading guilty to a lesser offense to avoid more severe charges. The paragraph also considers the impact of the trial on public perception and the political calculations of those involved. It highlights the complexity of the case and the challenges faced by the prosecution in proving intent and establishing a clear narrative of guilt.
Mindmap
Keywords
ð¡Donald Trump
ð¡Michael Cohen
ð¡Hush Money
ð¡Stormy Daniels
ð¡Karen McDougall
ð¡David Pecker
ð¡Falsification of Business Records
ð¡Prosecution
ð¡Cross-Examination
ð¡Campaign Finance
ð¡Testimony
Highlights
Michael Cohen testified that Donald Trump personally approved and directed the hush money payment to Stormy Daniels to protect his presidential campaign.
Cohen recalled being in London for his daughter's 21st birthday and anniversary when the Access Hollywood tape was released.
Hope Hicks, the communication director for the Trump campaign, informed Cohen about the release of the Access Hollywood tape.
Steve Bannon, the campaign manager at the time, also sent an email to Cohen regarding the potential release of the tape.
David Farenthold from the Washington Post sent an urgent query to Hope Hicks for comment on the tape leak, which Hicks forwarded to the campaign team.
Cohen stated that Trump wanted to spin the Access Hollywood tape as 'locker room talk', a phrase he claimed Melania Trump used.
An email exchange between Hope Hicks and Michael Cohen showed Hicks trying out different types of denials for a story about alleged infidelities.
Cohen was a key part of the team's response to allegations from women and was consulted at the highest levels for the response strategy.
Melania Trump's role and her contribution to the defense strategy were highlighted, showing her as a team player in the cover-up.
The prosecution presented a case that Michael Cohen was not a rogue employee but an integral part of Trump's team, especially in matters of alleged infidelity.
Cohen's testimony and the evidence introduced show that he was part of a coordinated effort to respond to the Access Hollywood tape and other allegations.
The trial revealed that Trump's defense might rely on the narrative that the hush money was paid to protect Melania, not to influence the campaign.
Cohen's account of his involvement in the scheme to suppress negative information about Trump provides a detailed timeline and corroborating evidence.
The prosecution's case is building a picture of Trump as the central figure in a coordinated effort to violate campaign finance laws.
A recording of Cohen and Trump discussing the reimbursement of American Media for the payment to Karen McDougall was played during the trial.
Trump's desire to make the payment in cash suggests an intent to keep the transaction untraceable and hidden.
Cohen's testimony implicates Trump as having knowledge and involvement in the alleged falsification of business records.
Transcripts
welcome back to our Prime Time recap of
the criminal trial of former president
Donald Trump prosecutor I would like to
direct your attention now to October 7th
2016 do you remember where you were that
day Michael Cohen yes question where
were you answer I was in London question
how do you remember that you were in
London answer well I went to London for
my daughter's 21st birthday as well as
for my anniversary and while you were in
London did you become aware of the
release of what's known as the access
Hollywood tape answer yes
and how did you become aware of that
tape coming out or that it had come out
answer I received a phone call who did
you receive a phone call from answer
from Hope Hicks who was hope Hicks at
the time hope Hicks was communication
director for the Trump campaign do you
also recall receiving at around that
time an email from Steve Bannon about
the potential release of the Access
Hollywood tape answer yes and who was
Steve Bannon at the time campaign
manager for the Trump campaign question
do you recognize this email answer I do
it's an email between me and Steve
Bannon as well as hope pix Jason Miller
kellyanne Conway David bossy does it
relate to the release of the Access
Hollywood tape it does and can you tell
the jury what you understand this bottom
email to be answer yes this is an email
from David farenthold of the Washington
Post and it's to Hope Hicks with the
subject matter of urgent Washington Post
query question and just in general what
is he communicating to Hope Hicks and
what is he asking her for answer he's
asking her for comment in regard to the
the leak of the tape from Access
Hollywood question and is there a
transcript of the Access Hollywood tape
attached to the email from David fenold
to hopix answer there is question and
does hopix then forward that email to
some other folks answer she does what
does hopix say in that email that she
forwards on to those folks involved in
the campaign answer need to hear the
tape to be sure Then followed by deny
deny
deny question and is that does does that
get forwarded now as we scroll down does
that get forwarded by Mr Bannon onto you
answer yes ma'am question and while you
were in London did you have several
calls with hope hick about this matter
the exess Hollywood tape answer I did at
one point did Mr Trump join a call with
yourself and hope pick answer yes on
that day on October 8th Answer yes
question and did you also have another
separate call with Mr Trump on October
8th 2016 answer yes question do you have
a separate memory of where you were and
what you were doing when you had these
phone calls with him answer yes what
were you doing answer I was in my I was
with my family and friends in London
question were you having dinner answer I
was did you step out to take these calls
I did and what if any discussion do you
remember with Mr Trump about the tape
and the strategy for dealing with it
answer he wanted me to reach out to all
of my contacts with the media we needed
to put a spin on this and the spin that
he wanted to put on
it was that this is Locker room talk
something that Melania had
recommended or at least he told me that
that's what Melania had thought it was
and use that in order to get control
over the story and to minimize its
impact on him and the campaign question
and what if anything did you do at that
point to try to assist the campaign with
that effort answer I reached out to
members of the
media he told her that uh excuse me he
told Mr Cohen that the locker room talk
defense which became the defense that
spin about what the Access Hollywood
tape was all about Michael Cohen says
that Trump told him it was his wife's
idea that it was Melania Trump's phrase
locker room
talk the other thing that's important
about this exchange besides that bizarre
assertion is that it shows that Michael
Cohen was not a rogue employee he was
not a solo operator especially on issues
like as Nicole points out that things
that related to alleged infidelity
Michael Cohen was on the team he was
part of if not leading the whole team
response that was also made clear in
this exhibit this printed exhibit that
was filed for the first time in court
today this is right before the election
the election was November 8th this was
November 4th and this email exchange
between hope Hicks and Michael Cohen
shows Hicks trying out different types
of denials that she wants to issue
potentially to the Wall Street Journal
about the story they're about to run
about these alleged infidelities and the
cover up of them she's running these
proposed denials by Michael Cohen Cohen
responds with his own he says quote
instead say this these accusations are
completely untrue and just the latest
despicable attempt by the liberal media
and the Clinton machine to blah blah
blah blah blah blah
blah prosecutors throughout this trial
have not just allowed they have
basically invited testimony from earlier
Witness including from hopix um in
invited these witnesses to disparage or
say how much they didn't like or didn't
respect Michael
Cohen but then today they showed the
receipts of him not operating alone of
him being totally part of Team Trump
responding to allegations about Trump
being consulted at the highest levels
about what the response should be
specifically he was a key part of the
whole team's response when it came to
allegations from women
how does that part of his testimony
today and this evidence introduced today
uh help the prosecution I'm endlessly
intrigued by the Sinister role hopix
played behind the scenes because other
than Bill bar there's no one whose
reputation has been more successfully
laundered sort of before during after
the Trump years than than hopix hopix
gets a transcript of Access Hollywood
she's in the room where Trump is saying
is that Trump he's talking about himself
in the third person I understand and her
she sends the TR of course we're going
to deny deny deny the first thing she
writes when Wall Street Journal calls
with McDougall is deny deny deny and if
you read her draft responses they are
more bombastic more partisan and more
nasty than anything Cohen edits her down
I mean h hopix is sort of the the
surprise and it shouldn't be a surprise
but a really sharp elbowed sort of paid
liar for Donald Trump and Coen is a
moderating force on the public
statements of The Campaign which is
stunning the melan thing I had heard at
the time and Milani actually goes out
and does an interview where she says
that and I think she says it in an
interview I can't remember if it's in
his hostage statement that night
remember he puts out a hostage I can't I
can't remember if he uses it but she
does an interview they somehow I I don't
know how but they get her to do an
interview and she uses that line in an
interview that she does I think it's
maybe after the debate so it's maybe
four days after the tape is dropped but
that is their their line and I mean
tragically because the other stories
stay silent
you know in their minds they think it
does work Lawrence so you know the
Melania question uh is is kind of
important on on this point uh because
Melania will through the questioning of
the defense that they will try to use
her as a reason Donald Trump wanted
these things to not come out uh but what
you're seeing there is Melania Trump in
this in this testimony is going to be
uncontested let's remember Donald Trump
is not going to take the witness stand
and say Melania didn't say that Milani
is not going to take the witness stand
and say she didn't say that so it will
be uncontested in the record and this is
Melania Trump after seeing what Donald
how Donald Trump brags about his
favorite method of sexual assault this
is worse than what you're learning about
Stormy Daniels this is worse than what
you're learning about Susan McDougall
and this portrays Melania as a team
player in the coverup let's get our guy
through it which means
why would you ever worry about Melania
when the stormy Daniel story comes along
yeah which matters right if the defense
is going to count on putting in a mind
of a single juror a counternarrative
that makes this whole hush money and and
and falsification of business records
scheme something that is innocent
because it wasn't Criminal is just
designed to protect Melania just
designed to protect the family rather
than to influence the campaign I mean if
that's what they're going to try to do
it seems very hard to do that now given
the testimony about Mrs Trump's own
contributions to this defense and to
what he what Trump explained about how
he didn't care about whether she knew so
just a second on here's how a defense
would do that they'd put Melania they
put the wife on the witness stand she'd
be in tears saying this crushed me this
was devastating when I learned this
Stormy Daniels news it was the most
horrible day of my life that's the way a
defense would actually get that into a
case like this or she'd be there she'd
be sitting behind him every day of the
trial showing her support even if she
doesn't take the stand but her absence
screams volumes of a lack of a belief in
Donald Trump our Prime Time recap of the
only criminal trial in history of an
American president uh continues right
after the break we got much more to come
stay with
us welcome back to our MSNBC Prime Time
recap of the criminal trial of former
president Donald Trump I'm here with my
colleagues Ari melber and Katie Fang and
Chris Hayes from MSNBC along with
Suzanne Craig from The New York Times
good to have you all here uh today the
prosecution called its 20th and likely
its Final witness Trump's longtime
lawyer and quote unquote fixer Michael
Cohen Michael Cohen today told the jury
that Trump personally approved and
directed The Hush money payment to an
adult fil film actress and director in
2016 including the false pretense of
structuring the payment as if it was um
a set of legal fees when it wasn't Cohen
testified today that Trump did this
explicitly to protect his presidential
campaign from the damage her story would
cause that it was not paid to protect
his family or his wife from any
embarrassment this Blockbuster testimony
defined the official court action inside
the court the direct examination of
Cohen will continue tomorrow the
cross-examination will then begin
thereafter and we expect lots of
fireworks at that point point but today
outside the court Trump made his own bid
for attention with the help from some of
his friends do we call them friends
possible running mates political allies
I don't know as he always does on his
way into court this morning the former
president himself stopped in front of
cameras to spend a few minutes
denouncing the trial uh but if you look
over his right shoulder there are those
familiar faces yes they are in front of
Donald Trump's adult son Eric he's the
blonde one he's standing in the back
there uh there are two Republican United
States senators J D Vance of Ohio and
Tommy tupperville of Alabama those two
senators came along with a republican
congresswoman from Staten Island and two
Republican State Attorneys General one
from Alabama one from I think
Iowa um to to keep Donald Trump
company this is becoming kind of a thing
in Republican politics to make a
pilgrimage to Trump's trial last week it
was Republican senator Rick Scott he's
up for reelection this year in Trump's
adopted hom State of Florida NBC News
has confirmed that former Republican
presidential candidate Vic ramaswami
will join Trump in court
tomorrow okay and the Craven desperate
politics of all this is embarrassing to
everybody who's watching it I mean many
of these folks are obviously hoping for
gigs and what they hope will be a second
Trump Administration JD Vance in
particular is desperate to be considered
for Trump's vice president but when
Senator Vance and Senator tupperville
left the courtroom today after a couple
of hours and headed for the cameras
themselves they made sure to tell
everybody that they were only there to
support their dear dear friend in
need I'm here for the simple reason to
show support for a friend luckily the
president's supporters should know that
he's actually in great spirits despite
the circumstances of this I'm here today
to represent and to pay my respects to
what president Trump is going
through it's a tough time for him that
courtroom is depressing this is New York
City icon of our country and we got a
courtroom that's the most depressing
thing I've ever been in mental anguish
is trying to be pushed on the Republican
candidate for the president of United
States this year that's all this is
Republican candidate for president of
United States is going through mental
anguish in a courtroom that's very
depressing very
depressing there is a little known
Constitutional Amendment which requires
a playful mobile to be put above
criminal defendants in courtrooms that
are particularly depressing it's like a
subset of the
ath at one point Senator Vance voiced
his concern that Donald Trump was being
made to feel quote
lonely because he isn't seeing crowds of
supporters every day outside the
courthouse that's because they're not
there but uh the Senators and the rest
of the gagle of Republican officials who
were at the courthouse today they all
echoed one of Trump's most common
complaints about his trial which is that
it's keeping him off the campaign
Trail he should be out on the campaign
Trail uh but of course he's here with
this trial our president Trump is tied
up in court when he should be out on the
campaign Trail this is simply an effort
to keep Donald Trump in New York city so
he can't go out and speak to the people
of this country about why he should be
re elected this President I should be
out campaigning now instead of sitting
in a very cold Courthouse all day long
it's not that cold um Donald Trump
should be out campaigning he should be
out barnstorming the swing States that's
what of course he would be doing if he
were not trapped at this trial that's
the line right here's the problem it is
true that Trump is required to be in
court when it is in session he is after
all a criminal defendant but that's only
maximum 4 days a week sometimes it's
only three days a week and on those
other days when Court isn't in session
the former president is mostly not
campaigning most of his non-trial days
he's been hanging out at his Club in
Florida or staying home in New York or
New Jersey as his his right but it
remains this strange and easily
disprovable thing that Trump and his
allies and quote friends are constantly
saying that he would be out campaigning
if he weren't in court that is easily
disproven by the observable fact that
when he is not in court he is mostly not
doing
that to be fair he did have one big
rally this weekend in New Jersey that is
a state that has not voted for a
republican for president since 1988 but
hey Hope Springs Eternal it does have
the advantage of being a quick quick hop
skip and a jump from from Trump's New
York apartment so maybe that was the
reason he did it but meanwhile President
Biden is running what you might call
counterprogramming president Biden is
actually doing what Trump says he wants
to be doing he is hitting the swing
States repeatedly Wisconsin Pennsylvania
North Carolina Joe Biden even hit
Trump's backyard in Florida last month
and while Trump has made his trial the
centerpiece of his campaign now to the
point where Republicans have to come and
sit in court with him in order to show
their support President Biden basically
never mentions the trial he barely even
mentions who his opponent in the
election is he talks up his administ 's
accomplishments he talks up how his
accomplishments will help the people of
whatever swing state he's
in like much of the Biden presidency it
feels like an act of radical normaly in
the face of what's going on on the other
side of American politics and now the
other side of the presidential
contest whatever else can be said about
this presidential election the two
candidates are running wildly different
campaigns and especially on a day like
this it feels like they are running
frankly on wildly different planets just
let let's bring in our colleague Jen
saki she's the host of inside with Jen
saki here on MSNBC she's the veteran of
many campaigns she's former White House
Press Secretary for President Biden Jen
thank you so much for being with us
tonight I wanted to make sure we were
able to talk to you um let let me ask
you there I feel like there's this there
was this pre-trial sort of
punditocracy common wisdom that Trump
was going to not only sell a lot of
merch with his mug shot on the merch
this was going to be a political Bonanza
for him I feel like to the extent that
we can see anything in the polling it's
showing that the trial isn't changing
things much one way or the other in
terms of views of either of the two
candidates how are the politics of this
trial being made
manifest well we don't know yet I will
say one additional detail you didn't
mention but is my favorite from last
Wednesday is that Trump spent time
dining with people who gave spent about
$10,000 on nfts and they got to get a
piece of his suit and a piece of his tie
that's how he spent the day campaigning
so there you go I think on the polling
of it it hasn't impacted people yet we
know from polling we've seen that if he
is convicted that the polling has showed
that it could impact people and how they
view him we will see but if you look at
the contrast here Rachel I mean Joe
Biden is out there I think one of the
best things he's done recently is that
event in Wisconsin where he ba basically
went to a state and went to a place
foxcon where Trump made a promise about
jobs that he couldn't deliver on didn't
deliver on that had a little Edge to it
you need a little Edge to break through
these days so that was a good thing uh
but there's got to be more of that too
in order for Biden to continue to kind
of make progress in this campaign the
most and you touch on this and went over
it and this is the thing that stuck out
to me so much about today is this sort
of sesow but it's not a sideshow of
these Senators it's so strange seeing JD
Vance and Tommy tuberville in New York
it was like a we's Waldo moment like
there they are oh there they are in back
of him at this press conference but it
tells you so much because as you said
not only did they stand there they went
out afterwards and then they put out
things in social media because they're
looking for approval from Trump and that
adds to what we've seen over the last
couple of weeks which is one people who
want to be the vice presidential running
mate or in the cabinet uh saying
confirming they don't think Trump lost
the election in 2020 two we've started
to see a number number of people
recently in the last couple of weeks on
a number of shows suggest expect the
outcome of the election in 2024 that's
replaying the game again and this is the
third piece I mean we're going to see a
tomorrow how crazy will that be I don't
know yet we will see but that is a piece
of this that tells you so much about his
own political power even if we're not
clear about where the polls between the
two candidates are going to be at the
end of this trial yet and can I just I
mean if you like imagineer a world in
which Republican politics is not
rotating around the axis
of Donald Trump what are the politics
what's the political impact of these
sitting senators and very ambitious
Republican politicians making sure that
they are seen inside of what they are
decrying as a very depressing New York
City courtroom I mean they're putting
themselves in state criminal court as a
way of trying to get themselves before
the American people so that this is
where we imagine them I mean this is
just it's it it may be one thing to try
to get Trump's favor but this exists in
its own right in terms of how they are
displaying themselves what they how how
they want us to think of their mil in
politics um and how they want us to
think of them when it comes to criminal
defendants in the criminal process well
they think it's a winner for them
politically to some degree to hug and to
align themselves with Trump and perhaps
in their states it is uh you know JD
Vance he's not up for re-election this
year Tommy tuberville he does a lot of
crazy things but he's he's Alabama Trump
is quite popular there right so for them
it might be a win among their
constituents but it also tells you that
that they don't think that standing by
and attending the criminal trial of a
former president who by the way is there
because of his role in paying hush money
to a former adult film star that that's
not going to hurt them politically that
it won't result in a primary race per
their assessment that it only helps them
among the base and that tells you so
much about kind of where the Republican
party and the base of the Republican
party is the other thing and you've
talked about this a lot as well over the
course of time on your show is it it
also tells you that these people are
saying I know that you had enablers in
2020 I'm raising my hand I'm happy to be
there and enable you in 2024 should you
want to question the outcome of the
election whatever the outcome you know
if you lose the election that's what
they're that's the message they're
sending by being there and by answering
questions as many have over the past
couple of weeks suggesting they won't
necessarily commit to respecting the
outcome of the election that's right
they're saying put me in coach when it
comes time to try to subvert American
democracy potentially do something that
is criminal in order to hold on to power
against American against the
Constitution against Democratic
principles I want you to call on me and
I'm willing to stand with you in the
criminal Docket in order to do it I'll
serve yeah it's the it's the law it's
the Law and Order party obviously um J
saki thank you so much for joining us my
friend much appreciated um as I
mentioned at the top joining us now
Suzanne Craig from The New York Times
and Ari melbour our esteemed legal
correspondent here Suzanne you were
there at the courthouse today I know
you've been there every day um Michael
Cohen to me following the reporting
today looking at the transcript once it
came out I feel like he really is
functioning as a summation witness it's
not just about Michael Cohen's own role
in the plot it feels like he's telling
us everything that happened he's giving
us the whole story does it feel that way
in court it it it did he interesting
that he's he's coming at the end and I
saw it a little bit differently because
I felt while he did that they also kept
him very much I think three parts they
kept him very much to the evidence he
was a cooperating witness for a lot of
testimony that has come so what he said
today some of it was familiar I think
that's a good thing because his
credibility is going to be questioned on
Cross he also spoke to the documents you
know we heard that not only did Donald
Trump instruct the payment to Stormy
Daniels get made but then they went in
and they talked about it in the office
so he had some additional um testimony
along those lines because the documents
and he's going to speak to some of them
I think again tomorrow but they don't
get you too intent but I really do feel
that they wanted Michael to come in and
really I just didn't come in and back up
a lot of what's been heard I found that
the testimony today was incredibly quick
there were so many yes no questions fast
yes ma'am no ma'am they weren't creat a
narrative like they did with David
pecker at the beginning David pecker was
an incredible tour guide through all of
it Michael Cohen it was very fast and
sometimes we were having even trouble
keeping track of the dates it was yes no
yes no if we got to a meeting boy did we
want to know something more about that
meeting there was no can you elaborate
on that they wanted I just don't I think
they know what's coming on cross and
they don't want him to say anything
outside of kind of the four quar oh
they're limiting what he says so that he
can't be turned I really felt that they
were he he became more comfortable too
once he got up on this down but he was
very nervous um at first um so they I
felt they kept them moving I actually
thought they wanted to finish today it
was going that quickly obviously we're
going to head in tomorrow with more
direct but then the cross is going to
open but I just don't think they wanted
to open the door for anything because
they know the storm that's coming AR
right in terms of looking ahead to that
cross I was in interested in your uh
special coverage today uh you had a
guest on who was very uh bullish on the
defense um and said that you know
Michael Cohen's going to get destroyed
on cross-examination he also repeatedly
called you Arie including at the end
saying in a very performative way AA La
Vista Ary and I was like is he actually
trying to start a fight with Ari right
here is this going to be a fist to cuffs
moment on MSNBC so Ary um it was a weird
thing um looking ahead toward that
cross-examination do you feel like
Michael Cohen has um has glass jaw here
that he has shown himself to be
vulnerable in a way that is inviting um
a real beating from the from the defense
not glass but maybe recently smelt clay
okay he he has some holes and I think
they will get to that and the lawyer you
mentioned defended Donald Trump at the
second impeachment which if you're
picking is the worst one so that's where
he's coming from although I was happy to
get his views because it's interesting
but that's the perspective I think the
issue for for Michael Cohen on Cross
will be overall credibility because they
will get into the criminal record and
the story did change and then raising
doubt that he might have gone Rogue the
he went rogue story is far-fetched but
they don't need to prove it they just
need to raise the doubt that it could be
true I did think to to Echo what we were
just discussing there have been days
where defendant Trump looked unseemly um
certainly did not look relatable looked
untrustworthy I thought today Michael
Cohen and the way they did this
testimony this is the day that Donald
Trump looked
most like a criminal I thought it was a
very bad day for him because his own
lawyer who famously went to prison very
clearly provided the timeline of a
proactive plan to allegedly commit a
crime that sounded familiar because that
firm was also stiffed by years stiff two
years prior by Donald Trump we get the
recording that was played for the jury
because Michael Cohen has to cover up
for Donald Trump's stiffing Ami on the
payment for Karen dle and so he's making
the recording to a sure Ami eventually
will pay you I mean all of these things
are a cascading series of screwing
people um for lack of a better term in
terms of their bills why are they giving
us that as a pattern because it speaks
to the Ebenezer Scrooge energy of Donald
Trump but why is that bad why is that
bad for the defense why is that good for
the prose it's good for the prosecution
because it feeds into the concept of the
evidence which says that Donald Trump is
a penny pinching miserly person who will
always count his pennies and Chris's
Point earlier about the fact that you
cannot present a
$420,000 approved invoice for essential
Consultants LLC Allah you know Michael
Cohen when all he did was front $130,000
but what you just did right now in this
you could just get up do closings at
this point Rachel you proved how
effective Michael Cohen is think about
this Donald Trump always said famously
where's my Roy con there's a reason why
he wanted Roy con Roy was indicted four
times Roy also in U represented John
Gotti if if Michael Cohen was so bad at
his job Trump wouldn't have ever kept
him around right and because of the
effectiveness of him dealing with the
cheapness of Donald Trump Donald Trump
kept Michael Cohen and that's the reason
why you NE Donald Trump never wanted a
good attorney he wanted a flaw attorney
he saw that in Michael Cohen he tested
Michael Cohen with that bill from
Michael Cohen's original Law Firm and
when he stiffed Michael Cohen's original
Law Firm and Cohen jumped at the
opportunity Donald Trump said here's my
new to put it in a sentence they're
saying Donald Trump wouldn't pay
$400,000 unless he authorized it yeah
right because the defense is going to be
Cohen and weiselberg went rogue and he
didn't this is this is a big this penny
pinching thing is going to come up was
he or not because the defenses I think
their main thing is going to be those
two went rogue yeah and he was just he
didn't see it much more to come in our
coverage of the Trump criminal trial
today in New York including what
happened when Michael Cohen asked Donald
Trump directly about what happened with
Stormy Daniels uh the answer Cohen says
he got which the defense is not going to
like and is not going to want to explain
uh and more when we come back stay with
us welcome back to our Prime Time recap
of the criminal trial of former
president Donald Trump prosecutor I will
take you back for a minute now to 2011
when you Mr Cohen first learned about
Stormy Daniels account of her encounter
with Mr Trump had you learned at that
time in 2011 about what Ms Daniels did
for a living Michael Cohen I did
prosecutor what did you hear at that
time in 2011 about what she did for work
Cohen that she was an adult film star
prosecutor and this came up again I
think you mentioned because it was an
article on theed dirty.com at the time
Cohen correct question and you worked
with Keith Davidson to get that article
taken down answer yes ma'am question in
2011 when you were engaged in doing that
in getting the article taken down did
you have a conversation with Mr Trump
about Stormy Daniels answer yes question
can you tell us in general the gist of
that conversation answer after I
received the information from Dylan
Howard I immediately went to Mr Trump's
office knocked on the door and said boss
I got to speak to you and I told him
about the conversation the sum and
substance of the conversation that I
just had with Dylan Howard and I asked
him meaning I asked Trump if he knew who
she was he told me that he did and I
stated about the story that existed on
the dirty.com that they'd had a
relationship that occurred during a golf
outing going back to like 2006 and I
told him that one of the things that you
know we need to do is we need to
obviously take care of it question did
Mr Trump also tell you anything about
having met her at the gulf tournament
back in 2006 answer yes question what
did he tell you answer he told me that
he was playing golf with Big Ben
rothberger the football player and they
had met Stormy Daniels and others there
but she liked Mr Trump that women prefer
Trump even over someone like Big
Ben question and did you ask him at that
time in 2011 whether he had had a sexual
encounter with Stormy Daniels answer I
did question did he answer you directly
answer no ma'am question did he mention
anything about what she looked like
answer he said she was a beautiful woman
quick break for a
shower and we're back this adds to the
Litany of testimony at the trial thus
far that
supports at least circumstantially the
contention that stormmy Daniels was not
lying that a sexual interaction did
happen between her and Donald Trump why
do we have so much testimony to that end
in this trial and what does it do if
anything for the prosecution's case
Chris well I think first of all the
Michael con that little detail about
bger really leap off the page when I
read it today because that part of
stormmy Daniel's testimony was so
memorable that he introduces you know
her to rossberger and then then she has
to like sort of push him out of her room
the next night we also know that then
Rossburg settled a civil claim for
sexual assault with a woman who says
that he sexually assaulted her which he
denies at that same golf tournament in a
different year so like there's that part
of it which is that it was the same golf
tournament it was the same golf
same golf tournament different year so
uh the same place so that that lights up
I think the memory of the jurors in
terms of corroborating like everyone's
going to remember if Ben rothberger is
around and Trump's going to talk about
it and stormy Daniel's going to talk
about it the other thing is just that
the
again the underlying facts here being
corroborated do seem really important in
terms of the motive for covering it up I
do think you would be more concerned
about a true allegation than a false one
probably
and particularly true allegation that
there might be other people around who
could have cooperated like if you're
poing around at a at a golf tournament
so it seems to me that that establishes
that Katie so we always look for pattern
and practice when we talk about some
legal Concepts and the common
denominator that we're hearing always is
Dina Dorman allegedly had a story about
Donald Trump fing a love child that's a
sex act right Karen McDougall had a a
yearslong affair with Donald Trump
allegedly that's a sex act stormmy
Daniels had a one night stand with
Donald Trump allegedly that's a sex act
it's all the common denominator of
something that Donald Trump
theoretically according to him just
being Locker talk locker room talk you
wouldn't be ashamed about that right you
just say hey it's a whole bunch of
people doing locker room talk it just
completely feeds into the idea that he
was doing all of this hush money
payments for Dino all the way to stormmy
to make sure that once he made it into
the White House according to him what
did he say right it doesn't make a
difference if it made to the White House
it doesn't make a difference which is
why he booted Michael Cohen when he made
it to the White House he didn't need
Michael Cohen anymore because he made it
across the finish line which is just
completely supports the Trump campaign
being the beneficiary not the personal
part although can I just note something
because it stuck out to me today when I
was following it which is that it's also
the case that way before he's even
running for office in 2011 when the
article ends up on the dirty.com
actually named dirty.com
he's like we got to take get it taken
down like there's a certain level of
reputational protection that's the back
now they're not M for it I think that to
me is what so stands out about the
enti course my point being Celebrity
Apprentice you could want to suppress
that stuff for non-campaign reasons and
clearly did in 2011 to me what's so
distinguishing about the scheme as given
by the prosecutors is the timing and the
amount of money at stake and I would put
it a little even more simply he's on
trial for lying right that's what fraud
is business fraud is lying and then in
service of what a campaign crime and so
we talk about low information voters
sometime there's that term people who
aren't following the news every night
like we are and many people in America
viewers are um jurors are supposed to be
low information citizens if they're
super high information they are probably
not on we covered the questioning of
them and so the other thing that's
happening here is very simple most of
these jurors have not followed all of
this really closely maybe they know
Michael Cohen name they probably don't
know Karen mcdougall's name or David
Pecker's name or many other things that
we've all been following and so for lowi
information jurors if you can show this
is Trump's chosen environment and these
are the stream of lies and some of the
lies were not crimes that's okay you
know they're going to get instructions
on that uh that's this has got to be
fair to the defendant and some of the
alleged lies are alleged crimes because
you can't just go around and take 130k
and call it 420 and and lie to the
government and cheat you're not allowed
to do that Suzanne as you are watching
this day after day and putting yourself
in the mind I think it's a very good
point AR about how you're not only
picking people who necessarily aren't
the highest information people but then
the jurors are instructed do not watch
any news about this do not watch the
MSNBC recap of this do not pay attention
to any discussion about this only focus
on what is being given to you as
evidence in this courtroom seeing it
laid out in the courtroom is it cogent
it is oh no it's a it's a powerful story
and I I actually still come back to
David pecker and just what a great tour
guide he was at the beginning because he
was able to lay it out from beginning to
end and he spoke to Trump so he was
talking to Trump he sort of Michael Coen
was sort of the goete and I think he
effectively set him up at the beginning
and then we get to the end now and we've
got Michael Cohen and I keep thinking
when when you were talking about the jur
one thing we haven't talked about is the
tape that came in where you've got
Donald Trump talking about the payment
and he's like pay it in cash and Michael
Cohen's like no no no and the reason
that he was like no no no he explained
it today because he wanted to have a
record so that it could look like a
legitimate business transaction if they
he thought it would look too dodgy if it
was a suitcase right and then yeah and
then he explains well I was taping it
because he he he according to him he
wasn't taping it because he didn't trust
all the participants which maybe he
shouldn't have he was taping it so he
could tell David pecker that was going
to deliver on this that Trump intended
to pay him he keeps telling me he's
going to pay you I can prove it I'll
secretly tape him saying it but it's
just a good reminder that not everything
today was sort of it's Michael Cohen
narrating a lot of things including
tapes with Donald Trump yeah we're going
to try to turn around that tape for you
if just a moment we've got much more of
our special prime time that was me
talking to the control room breaking the
wall here just for a second hey you guys
can we get that tape yeah more roer C
comes up in just a moment now we come to
the the telephone records another woman
whose story threatened to tank the Trump
campaign we've still got lots more ahead
from Michael C's testimony today stay
with us welcome back to our recap of the
criminal trial of former president
Donald Trump one of the things that
happened today in Michael Cohen's
testimony is that he described the
circumstances under which he made a
recording of himself speaking to his
boss speaking to Donald Trump it was a
recording of an in-person meeting he
walked into Trump's office with the
Voice Notes app on his phone recording
while he either held his phone or had it
in his pocket or near his pocket the
reason he said he made the recording is
because David pecker from American Media
expected to be paid back
$150,000 that American Media had
Advanced to a woman named Karen
McDougall who had claimed that she had
had a long affair with Donald Trump Ami
as part of its alleged scheme with
Donald Trump to suppress negative
information about him in order to
benefit his campaign had paid McDougall
ostensibly to do some work for their
magazine Empire but really so that they
would own the life rights to that story
about Donald Trump and make sure that
that story never saw the light of day
now at some point after Ami had Advanced
that money Cohen and Trump according to
Trump decided excuse me according to
Cohen decided that they would purchase
those rights from Ami they would
effectively reimburse Ami for having
made that outlay of cash but in so doing
they would buy those life rights thems
and for a while they talked about
including in that purchase price the
treasure chest of information that
American Media had accumulated over time
about the life and loves of Donald Trump
a locked drawer reportedly full of
information about Trump they thought for
their 150 Grand they could get the Karen
McDougall rights they could get all the
Trump stuff they were worried to get
that information because Cohen testified
today that David pecker the head of this
magazine Empire they believed was going
to get a different job at time
Incorporated he was going to leave that
would mean David pecker their friend and
protector the member of this conspiracy
with them was going to leave behind at
Ami all of that information about Trump
in that locked door wouldn't that in
that locked drawer wouldn't that be
terrible somebody else might get it
wouldn't it be better if we owned that
ourselves so here's Michael Cohen and
Donald Trump in a recording that Cohen
made without Trump knowing in a meeting
in Trump's
office I've spoken to Allan weiselberg
about how to set the whole thing up U
with so what are we
funding yes um and it's all the stuff
all the stuff because you know you never
know where that company you never know
where he's going to be correct so I'm
I'm all over that and I spoke to Allan
about it when it comes time for the
financing which will be L what financing
we'll have to pay you so no no no no no
no I got no no no
check no no no no no not cash check why
I check let's bring into the
conversation our colleague Lisa Rubin
who is at the courthouse today uh also
Katherine Christian former assistant
District Attorney At The Manhattan DA's
office thank you Miss Christian for
being with us um Lisa let me let me ask
you first of all if I characterize the
context of that recording correctly yeah
um and when they say pecker might get
hit by a truck what they mean is pecker
might no longer be the custodian of what
we believe is negative information about
Trump so we should own that ourselves
correct okay why does or is it is it
clear to you why it matters that Trump
is suggesting making this payment in
cash um even though Cohen um argues
against that well for starters Trump
doesn't want a record of it the exact
same reason reason that Cohen is saying
let's cut a check because I want to
protect Trump with a record is the very
same reason that Donald Trump is begging
him to use cash because he wants no one
to know about it at all but I think the
larger import of the tape is not about
the cash or check it's about situating
Donald Trump at the center of this
scheme and showing that not only did he
join the conspiracy but that he was
involved in each and every plan to
execute on that conspiracy by repaying
for Karen mcdougall's settlement on one
hand and then later on paying stormmy
Daniels himself when you talk about
paying for something in a way that is
untraceable or communicating about
something in a way that is untraceable
is that to a jury or you know to to a
court of law is that potentially
evidence of knowledge or criminality I
think it is I mean but again let's
remember that here what the actual crime
that's being alleged here is
falsification of business records and so
this tape doesn't necessarily move the
needle about the falsification and
Donald Trump's own knowledge and
involvement in that on the other hand it
shows his motive to be involved in that
cover up because he was directly
involved in the crime itself right okay
so it's not that this so This goes to a
larger point that we've been talking
about tonight all of us which is that
there is no viable if the prosecution is
doing his job there is no viable
counternarrative that uh Michael Cohen
was acting alone that Trump had no idea
any of this was happening rather the
prosecution is presenting a picture of
Michael Cohen's actions as situated in
and and connected to and integral with
Trump's own actions right Katherine yeah
and the and it also goes to intent and
the judge is going to instruct the jury
that the definition of intent it was the
defendant's conscious objective to cause
a result so motive intent consciousness
of guilt what gets me about this
relationship it wasn't an attorney
client relationship it was a master
servant no offense to Mr Cohen so of
course these weren't legal expenses
because this was not really an attorney
I mean that the prosecution will
probably not argue that but this really
was not an attorney client relationship
I don't know again we keep coming back
to this idea that you don't you know the
the burden of proof correctly
constitutionally is is on the
prosecution I just feel like and again
maybe I'm thinking of this in a way that
it's not the median juror because I'm
exposed in a different way to it but I
do need something to hang on to that's
an alternate story for all this stuff I
mean you could raise doubts about it but
I mean like in order to empathize with
the defense in order to think that this
it wasn't exactly what it looks like I
guess I just sort of feel like okay
let's say you g you gave me some theory
that con went rogue this was cooked up
by wisel Bri and con like maybe that
seems plausible and they wanted to do it
for the boss but then like I need
something about why Trump writes in the
chest right like I need I can give it to
you okay but it's not very strong go
ahead if you admit the
misdemeanor yeah business fraud it's on
paper CFO you lied but you say when
Cohen did all this and and the defendant
sitting in the white house he then felt
like paying him back so it's partly the
Rogue but it's all after the fact if you
move the decision which is still bad
later after the fact you might and tell
us what you think help raise doubt
against whether it was contemporaneously
Consciousness intent at the time before
election day which means again I'm not
here doing free legal services they
already have their plan which means you
admit the misdemeanor which is a common
defense tactic when you have a bad case
then you postdate the other action and
that allows for the fact that it could
be true that you reimbursed him and will
Donald Trump allow his defense attorneys
to say your honor we want you to
instruct the jury on the Lesser included
offense of falsifying business records
in the second grade don't you think that
would be in new yorkt he allow his
lawyers to essentially plead guilty to
the misdem well not plead guilty you're
adting basically and then he would be
again assuming the jury says you know
what we don't think it's you know the
higher we don't we don't know where the
intent to conceal and another crime is
but he did intent to defraud and then
there's 34 misdemeanor convictions as
opposed to fell but don't you think if
you have a defendant who's not consumed
by ego that's a better instru I would
give my client the client say who right
if this had been me I would have pled
guilty day one and it would all be over
by now yeah all right our recap of the
action today in the Trump criminal trial
continues to be clear I didn't do it
we'll be right back stay with us
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