Ryuichi Sakamoto and Carsten Nicolai (Alva Noto): Two musical innovators

please no it's fine like that

be my guest

when I Tolliver when I service good

afternoon and welcome

Susanoo Plessy today we have very

special guests to natural-born music

innovators mr. Richie Sakamoto mr.

Casten Nikolai let's welcome him as you

know actually Carsten is playing this

afternoon at half past eight right

and together they playing on Sunday at

theater Greg at 10 p.m. right correct

ok so I'm sure that you also know that

they've been working together as a duet

since 2002

well dear that Breann was released so

they already have a really good

discography that that changed in a lot

of minds that changed a lot of things

about the relationship from let's say

acoustic music with electronics let's

put it this way first of all I'd like to

ask them about all the motivations of

the first time you met and you were

together how does it where does it come

from that collaboration we met very

first time in Tokyo when he had a show

and so actually Yoji kara introduced us

so I went to see

he's the show in Tokyo and that was a

very first time I heard his music I

really immediately I feel lovely em but

he was doing and I well I'm probably

understood how he became an artist like

this I thought I thought he was he was

doing more like a techno you know the

throughout the 90s then from the German

techno movement he kind of created his

own style which was which reminded me a

little bit like the early German

experimental music like a Stockhausen

etc which I I was very familiar with so

I was so surprised

wow the new kind of generation came out

and somehow they had a very strong

connection with someone like us mm but

actually that's how we met so how that

how did it felt when really taken to you

like let's do something together

yeah it was I mean basically it was this

evening when Ryoji introduced us and and

ridge is a very open-minded and very

curious person and one of the next thing

what was happening was actually not a

was not a collaboration or something or

not the idea of a collaboration it was

that Richie asked me to do remix and in

this time you've been working on an

unbound Brazilian

different different some ezard's

something completely what you would not

connect to me at all and I said yeah

yeah I can do a remix and then I set my

remix what Ritchie laughed and the

Brazilian hated came out great and and

then Ritchie was so kind to I think you

gave me a little hard drive with one

hour of material just said do whatever

you want to do just like raw stuff and

you could use it for a lot of material

piano material just a note this was the

strange thing it was maybe 98%

electronics aha and 2% pianos

okay and so it really changed at the end

and that exactly this 2%

I took he was not interested in my

electronics that's his part okay now

maybe maybe it's just you know then

maybe sorry enough maybe it's like when

you listen like for an hour or two music

you're kind of familiar and then

something comes what is suddenly

completely different then it grabs your

attention I think this was more than

points and therefore like okay

it was very food short piano phrase and

then I created something from that and

sent Ritchie and then I think the answer

was another recording of piano then I

did the same yeah and another sub kind

of ping-pong yeah and that that style

became our tradition yeah or other the

other albums right so that this was

basic and then the material was sitting

almost in a year I was too shy to ask

can we release it but you did it final

and then it took me one a half years to

do

oh gee if if there is it would be a

possibility to release that material

luckily you agreed yeah and then Breanna

came out for your first album together

came out and then I think this at this

time I was still very frequency and

layering and not touching your piano

it's very yeah actually that's my next

question there's a big shift from

Rihanna to incense incense that Briana

is it sounds mostly as a juxtaposition

of material like your material your

material together let's see how they

work but in in in Sun here there is a

more interaction like you are processing

the piano etc so I understand that is

like getting deeper in the collaboration

between both of you

the probably the first the first time

for the real world he was too shy and

properly too respectful to touch the

material of my piano pieces so he he

wouldn't process any of my piano pieces

so he just added his own that quickness

so one plus one yes oh well different

layers of textures and happiness between

broom and incense we toured yes

sometimes so we got we got you know we

came more through some we communicated a

lot so Chinese is gone okay whatever

so yeah but it's not only China's is

some kind of respect

yeah I think it's a respect between

artists is super important I think it's

and I'm quite happy that maybe the first

album was such hire as you call it or

respectful but but this item learned me

something very important because it's a

common ground of both the electronics

and the piano they share something even

if they are not processed and there's a

communication it's a communication

happening and I think this was something

what I myself didn't expect it to be

happening but it was very happy that

something was creating it and of course

second album was much more processed

edited and I was much more working

actually with the piano sounds it's an

electronics a little after that your

collaboration went a big step further

at least from my point of view when you

collaborated with a huge assemble with

UTP that was really a big shift as I

told you because you were both dealing

with a very delicate and intimate sound

while working together alone and

suddenly you work with this lot of

musicians how did you especially you

know maybe you didn't have so much

experience with working with in symbols

how did you face it it was it was

actually you know we we were offered by

the sample whatever okay also at around

the same time we got an offer from the

city yeah and basically it turned out

this two guys appeared one wonderful

ensemble Madonna the other one was from

the city of Mannheim Wow yeah and

they wanted to celebrate their 400 any

400 or any rosary of the founding of the

city

and they wanted to celebrate it and that

a commission to a new piece but they've

been very shy and very I mean ensemble

metallus it's not a huge Orchestra but

it's 12 people are approximately but so

they said yeah please think about this

offer let's do something together and

then we came to Frankfurt quite often

and checked everything and started

recording plenty of material little

instruments

well the ensemble model is a very

skillful fascinating and experienced

ensemble for doing not only contemporary

music but in something very far from

where the Frank Izapa etc so what we

wanted to do with them was not just

writing score and give it to them and

let them play it's not like that

so we started with just talking with him

giving them some things like a think

about atmosphere and playful play with

it or something like that so many we

spent many hours many days like that

very abstract way of make making

searching something you know I mean

luckily Ricci was there because I was

absolutely not capable so talking to

them because they found out very quickly

that I have no idea about notation well

you took different languages that yeah

so we did we when I said okay can

you play this frequency or can you try

to make the frequency more stable they

looked at me because I I was missing

basically the language yeah yeah so we

had to learn the light and the Ritchie

came and so he was a translator Ritchie

can play some air yeah the guy means an

e play and I was sitting there to

explain it but I want to have some

unusual noisy sounds and then they

looked at me what much came but Ritchie

came and maybe a 4h e came and then then

a lot of things being created and very

beautiful pieces appeared mmm I mean

inspiration for please

and then Ritchie I mentioned the word

abstraction which in a way I think that

your your work together as a duet

especially has been like a long way to

abstraction into abstraction in the

sense that your first records are more

like sounds more like impressionist

music but glass your life one it's

really abstract it's like really you

know almost sound out how that was it's

something that you were like progressing

and deciding okay we should go this

direction and it's just something that

came spontaneously we like the result of

glass so much but it just came out very

spontaneously we got another offer from

the Glass House yeah which was the

architecture by Reba Johnson sitting in

Connecticut

it's a fascinating landscape so we as we

were asked to perform inside the Glass

House which is very small like two of us

with 35 people then that's just for very

intimate very tiny so we just got some

historians and the computers there's no

Nora house or no directions no concept

at all just influenced by the

architecture and the the nature

everything came out naturally

spontaneously right like a specific work

yeah we never talked about any musical

content

the only thing what we agreed to was to

use architecture as an instrument to

make the glass or to involve some

crystal balls like what has a glass

sound already but I own that no

communication no rehearsal a technical

rehearsal and then we just left it to

the moment and just played and it was

kind of magical which actually was would

you like your first work together that

has a very clear input of inspiration

which is the house itself because the

other records are whatever but this one

is mostly focused on the influence of

this space and the way you fill it isn't

it or you're related to this space and

he was very first time we improvised

together really without any follow

between the between ourselves with

something with other people yeah

because when we were during before

before glass we only played there's some

drugs from the albums on stage and this

is no drugs or no preparation at all

just except the instruments so this is

the first time we did improvised and we

felt very good condom we thought we

broke some wall because before glass we

felt we had a son some-some wall in

front of us you know the tradition

became kind of rigid so we wanted to do

something new but we didn't know what

what it was then

glass game yeah how we are about what

what I was thinking about what what rich

is saying I like it's I mean

mechanically it's far more easy to

improvise with the piano maybe than with

electronics that it's the sum of

processes how do you face up

improvisation when working with

electronics actually it's quite easy I

think because technology in the moment

is quiet I mean there's plenty of

instruments but as well I'm I'm a big

fan of digital you know sorry to say

that in the hype but so I always laughed

interfaces model interface so for me

like iPad applications or creating my

own little interface was always there

and during the process of our tour

actually I developed with

if Nebo my my collaborator in the studio

we developed a few real-time processing

software what allowed us to react super

fast

but-but-but what universe what you

normally do when you're in studio and I

have plenty of time that we created some

software but being able to do this on

the spot and so I do technology in this

in this terms was very helpful and and I

think there's as I mean I can maybe

speak both of us there's more option as

you might want to have right sometimes

it's better to have less to limit

yourself the set of kind of

possibilities yeah I mean you don't need

that much I think yeah you can get lost

among all to make it easier yeah yeah

easy to get lost one of the things that

you both share my point of view it's the

trying to amplify your your field of

work like mixing with other languages

you've done you've worked with Christian

finesse with Taylor debris with with the

crystal village you've worked with a

poet youth work with a guitar player so

it's it's it's it's a kind of makes

sense the word you doing together

because you any one of you from its own

side I've been like trying to found up a

wide wider field of work by mixing with

other languages isn't it

I don't know you can tell me if I'm

completely fraud I would like to answer

this in a different way as an electronic

musician you like to be in control

because one of the most important thing

for you is the sound and the most

control of the sound you actually have

not on stage and not in the

collaboration you have actually within a

studio in a post yes

let's say post master regular posts

production process and you can retouch

everything can be refine things so this

is I think this is our real focus to

collaborate as is a great openness and

they're great I mean it's almost like

that you have to convince yourself that

things can but I was like I don't know

how you feel but but I was very very

always very difficult about what comes

out of this so because a lot of things I

was not happy about some details maybe

or so because I would simply was used

about control and in this one of the

biggest thing you have to give up is

control when you start collaborating I

don't mean you have to forget that

you're in control of whatever

well good sight good thing about what

we've been doing since glass is that

because before as I mentioned you know

we played the tracks from the album

mostly so the we created some music in

the studio in a very good environment

then we replayed what we did in the

studio on stage so the acoustics sound

environment is not always as good as we

have in the studio or for a life

situation but now what we are doing is

since glasses we are not representing or

replaying what we we did in the studio

you know I will we are creating

something new on stage that very time on

stage with the audience that's the big

difference for me it's it's breathing so

representing or replaying and creating

this is totally different to different

things to me so I I feel alive okay so

you both are taking risks yeah with with

this work together that's it we having

fun and it's difficult technically some

point of it if I think it's for us it's

a great freedom and I think that was

specifically after Richie being so sick

and recovered luckily and I think we

didn't feel like we want to reap have to

return to the point where we've been

before we wanted to open in a different

way of chapter and not just risking

things and if it works out it works out

and people we are not afraid about fail

failing right I mean this is maybe the

biggest this is the biggest pressure on

you that you have the feeling to fail

right or that you have to yeah maybe the

certain kind of freedom but we developed

change of subject visuals are also a

great part of your life concerts I

understand that maybe it's something

that you brought in because of your

previous work with an interactive image

how do you do I think about visuals the

influent the communication between sound

and image in terms of aesthetics like

how can you reflect with abstract images

the texture of a piano or the your sine

waves you know this laser sound I have

to say maybe I mean I always used

visuals for my solo shows and of course

we developed visuals for our

collaboration but maybe after so many

years working with this kind of visuals

I feel sometimes they can be just too

destructive into than one-dimensional

because even if they're abstract

they're still giving you some kind of

image and I think most one of the most

beautiful things of music is that it

delivers image without showing image

right so this is the tricky part on

working with visuals but for the show we

are we are presenting right now we've

become less interactive and we see it

more as let's say it's a frame around us

what gives us some kind of convenience

like a context a kind of context rather

than the image is important so kind of

steps back

you get you know they the visual

synthesis triggered by the sound on your

map for a long time yeah so everybody

knows that everybody uses that and maybe

people dislike like this simulacra

synesthesia right yes I prefer like a

more subtle subtle changes so slower

much slower movements or maybe stillness

is good yeah he's right sometimes no

images it's the best imaginative thing

music music without images would be more

imaginable probably sometimes if music

is good so it's it's kind of difficult

you become too easy to use the

technology to combine sound and visual

Richie was talking about our music

without images now I would like to talk

about images with music because of your

work on soundtracks if the guys can

switch on the video please thanks

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the devil videos is cloud gracias

yeah we play live remix oh yeah okay so

we're doing a spoiler okay so the

revenant alejandro scenario to film was

your first collaboration together on a

samsung i think it was your first motion

picture soundtrack carsten you have been

doing something so for many many years

how does it came from was a inheritors

idea to ask you both to work together

basically Ritchie Cold War because maybe

you explained it

yeah I got a call from his office but

after I had cancer I wasn't fully

recovered yet

but I I got a phone call from his office

and he he said come to LA tomorrow but I

said I said answer let me think

but no no no no you should come very

mixed conway for invitation and so

anyway i started working on this so i

was i was working on almost like a 4-5

months then i knew i wouldn't have

enough time to finish so i could not

because you know we are close and he's

very capable not only done but from the

beginning of this project

the narrative had a temporary music for

editing and probably 40% of the temple

music is our music already so in the

beginning I was mimicking constant

constant sound by myself so luckily he

had a time a month and came to LA rescue

have you ever thought about doing a

soundtrack for a motion picture before

which he called you actually in like

small-scale yes because I I did some

small short films for myself for my work

and we collaborated on that too and but

I never thought about that kind of scale

or but I I loved in re to the movies and

I really love to last movie hit it

before that department because the

incorporation of the drummer into the

soundtrack and in the movie I thought

like wow brilliant finally somebody who

understands music in a different way as

just adding it on top and and yeah I

mean was unexpected but I was kind of

thinking about soundtrack but not in

such way because if you mean did you

change your approach to the relationship

with images as far as you've been

working a lot with images but with

abstract images and then you have to go

into a classical narrative structure I

think the first thing where you have to

understand is that you not a composer

already in this mom

you kind of serve or you kind of servant

to the director into the image and you

have a lot of influence but still it's

not about your ego in such a moment it's

really that something about what you can

make better or when you work together

and and in this case you what is really

great

specifically with in re to because you

get a lot of feedback sometimes

difficult feedback but it's it's great

that something can be created that maybe

isn't not just that some composer gets

some music and puts on top so there's a

lot of this kind of feedback system

happening here and this was with

specific if you know Rio Grande it very

difficult because he's such a pain in

the ass on details and I have to say

what's really yeah unbelievable and yeah

yes from the very beginning you know the

project you know II too insisted you

have not not the convention of your

musical of course but you know he kept

saying the layers of the sounds layers

of sounds so I thought it was easy you

know just I used rather than writing

dramatic melody no it's not easy for me

but you know just putting layers of

sounds will be easy but then difficulty

came after that okay I need the layers

of sounds but still you should go with

the drama to narrate

or invest emphasize yeah some emotions

but emphasize the emotions with layers

of sounds wouldn't be so easy so it was

a very big challenge for me it's a new

way of making how it came when you're

working in such a movie as the Reverend

where it's mostly a movie about nature

about this history that happens in the

wild in the woods where nature is an

influence on the whole story and then

you have this idea okay we're going to

add some very synthetic digital sounds

here how didn't are we to think about

that first time it's hard to describe

but I I think I understood what he

wanted like a for instance there's a big

waterfall seeing and I from the

beginning he put his very synthetic

music oh god that's it it totally worked

out so so good so sometimes we well of

course I love sounds of the nature you

know I need to listen to the sounds of

nature time by time but it's not only

it's only only for soothing or anything

but the to get to know the complexity of

the sounds of nature that's what I want

to hear so like let's say only was

listening to the only raindrops but is

super super complex and that complexity

is somehow close to what he's been doing

what he wants to do so it's not it's not

the background music or soothing

soothing relaxation music for for nature

you see you normally see the dentist

clinic director that's exactly what he

wanted to express it's not only the just

drawing the beauty of nature or anything

like the more like I don't know so and

you from your side

Richie called you can you help me with

this soundtrack and oh yeah it happens

all in the woods and you have to add

your sound to that yeah and at say in

the beginning I thought it's a western

movie

how does it work that electronic music

and like but in the end after while

working on it you lost this image of

that is the western movie because

basically this is a movie about some men

struggling right I mean

nature of course and electronic music

and nature is very cool very close to

each other I mean like there's this one

fantastic book about birds from cage or

whatever so electronic music and nature

is actually kind of almost same I would

say as I mean not same but it's very

close to each other much closer as maybe

a classical music okay we have no time

left unfortunately so let's really

cliche question are you gonna work

together again on soundtracks and what

are your most immediate and next plans

as together I mean the most immediate is

that we playing on well yeah I know that

you're playing on Sunday at 10:00 p.m. I

insist at the Teatro Gregg you how you

all have to go there we play on on

Wednesday in London again but you are

you thinking about working together

again on a soundtrack for example I mean

this this depends not on us or nature

but I think if the right offer comes

yeah because you know the grass house

was so inspiring for us and we get the

very good result out of the

improvisation so we were saying at that

time you know why don't we do the glass

series of a performance there are many

glass architecture in the world a very

inspiring architecture in Germany maybe

here in Japan so we go there and do the

performance so we'll get the series of a

glass then you've got some another idea

after that but I've forgotten

water water water series well I I have

my own garden garden see