Trump on trial: New York vs. Donald Trump Day 17 Highlights

MSNBC
14 May 202458:24

Summary

TLDRThe transcript discusses the testimony of Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former attorney, in a courtroom setting. Cohen is portrayed as a key witness who has admitted to past lies and wrongdoings but has also implicated Trump in illegal activities. The defense, led by attorney Todd Blanch, attempts to discredit Cohen's testimony by highlighting his history of deception and suggesting personal vendettas against Trump. The conversation also touches on the presence of high-ranking Republican politicians at the trial, insinuating their support for Trump despite the allegations. The summary reflects on the tension in the courtroom, the strategic cross-examination, and the broader implications of the trial on Trump's political allies.

Takeaways

  • 📚 Michael Cohen's demeanor on the witness stand was a surprise to many, as he maintained his composure even when challenged during cross-examination.
  • đŸ‘„ The defense's strategy seemed to focus on painting Michael Cohen as a disgruntled and unreliable narrator, potentially affecting the jury's perception of his credibility.
  • đŸ€” The jury was presented with evidence of Cohen's post-prison activities, including his podcast and merchandise criticizing Trump, which the defense used to question his motives.
  • 📉 The defense attempted to highlight inconsistencies in Cohen's testimony and his behavior both before and after his association with Trump.
  • 🎭 There was a noted attempt by the defense to humanize Cohen, showing his regret and the personal toll his actions and involvement with Trump have had on his life.
  • 📋 The prosecution's case relied heavily on documents and corroborating evidence, with Cohen being the culmination of their witnesses.
  • 🕰 The defense did not present any witnesses, making Cohen's cross-examination the central focus of their case.
  • đŸ€ High-profile Republican figures, including potential vice presidential candidates, were present in the courtroom, signaling a show of political support for Trump.
  • ⚖ The judge's instructions to the jury will be critical, as the defense aimed to create 'presidential level reasonable doubt' around Cohen's testimony.
  • 📈 The presence of Trump's allies at the trial may be an attempt to counter-program the narrative and sway public opinion, rather than having a direct impact on the legal proceedings.
  • 🚹 There were concerns raised about the legality and ethics of Trump's associates making public statements that he himself is gagged from making due to the gag order in place.

Q & A

  • What was the general perception of Michael Cohen's demeanor during his cross-examination?

    -Michael Cohen's demeanor during cross-examination was seen as contained and composed, which was surprising to many given his previously known combative nature.

  • How did the defense attorney, Todd Blanch, attempt to undermine Michael Cohen's credibility?

    -Todd Blanch attempted to undermine Cohen's credibility by suggesting that Cohen was obsessed with Donald Trump, had lied in the past, and was now seeking revenge by testifying against Trump.

  • What was the significance of Michael Cohen's pauses during his testimony?

    -Michael Cohen's pauses during his testimony were interpreted by some as a sign of careful consideration of the questions asked, and an indication that he was thoughtfully constructing his responses.

  • What was the reaction to the merchandise that Michael Cohen was selling related to Donald Trump?

    -The merchandise, which included items like a 'jail Trump' t-shirt, was used by the defense to argue that Cohen was monetizing his association with Trump and his testimony, potentially biasing his account.

  • Why did some of the defense's questioning strategies seem to be confusing or ineffective?

    -The defense's questioning was aimed at creating confusion and misdirection due to the lack of strong factual evidence to counter Cohen's testimony. This approach was intended to introduce reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors.

  • What was the role of Michael Cohen as described in the context of Donald Trump's alleged criminal activities?

    -Michael Cohen was described as a key witness and a co-conspirator in the alleged criminal activities, having been closely involved with Trump's business dealings and aware of the inner workings that the prosecution is trying to expose.

  • How did the presence of Republican politicians at the trial affect the proceedings?

    -The presence of Republican politicians at the trial was seen as a show of partisanship and loyalty to Trump. It also served as a potential audition for those seeking Trump's endorsement or a position in his administration.

  • What was the reaction to the claim that Michael Cohen had an 'unhealthy obsession' with Donald Trump?

    -The claim was met with skepticism, as it was argued that even if Cohen admired Trump, it did not necessarily discredit his testimony about Trump's actions.

  • Why was there concern about the defense's line of questioning regarding Michael Cohen's actions post-prison?

    -There was concern that highlighting Cohen's actions post-prison, such as his media appearances and merchandise sales, could potentially sway the jury against him, even though these actions were not directly related to the case at hand.

  • What was the general sentiment regarding the defense's strategy in cross-examining Michael Cohen?

    -The general sentiment was that the defense's strategy was scattershot and lacked a clear theme, which could be detrimental to their case. The aim seemed to be casting doubt on Cohen's character rather than directly challenging the evidence against Trump.

  • How did the prosecution lay out their case with Michael Cohen as a witness?

    -The prosecution presented a well-prepared case, providing corroborating evidence, documents, and multiple witness testimonies to support Cohen's claims. They aimed to show a clear progression from Cohen's loyalty to Trump to his decision to tell the truth.

Outlines

00:00

đŸ‘„ Michael Cohen's Performance on the Stand

The first paragraph discusses Michael Cohen's testimony, highlighting his unexpected composure during cross-examination. Cohen, despite being known for his combative nature, remained contained and held up under pressure. The discussion also touches on Cohen's transformation from a loyal advisor to Donald Trump to a broken man mourning his mistakes, and his decision to cooperate with prosecutors, which included a family intervention. The speakers also analyze the strategic pauses Cohen took while answering questions and the potential impact on the jury.

05:01

🧐 Defense's Strategy and Cohen's Characterization

The second paragraph delves into the defense's approach, which aimed to paint Cohen as unreliable and self-serving. It outlines the various tactics used by the defense to question Cohen's credibility, including attempts to portray him as a liar, a grifter, and a spurned lover. The speakers also discuss the prosecution's effective pre-emptive strikes against these defense strategies by contextualizing Cohen's actions and character. Additionally, there's an analysis of the lack of a robust defense case and speculation about the possible outcomes of the trial.

10:03

🎭 Theatrics of the Courtroom and Trump's Demeanor

The third paragraph focuses on the theatrics involved in the trial, including the performance of the defense lawyer, Todd Blanch, and the reactions of Donald Trump within the courtroom. It discusses Trump's apparent disinterest, signaled by his frequent eye-closing, which is interpreted as a form of defiance. The speakers also consider the impact of this behavior on the jury and the potential long-term ramifications for Trump's legal team and his relationship with his lawyers.

15:05

📚 Direct Examination and Humanizing Michael Cohen

The fourth paragraph highlights the direct examination phase where Michael Cohen's human side was on display. It talks about Cohen's admission of guilt and the personal sacrifices he made, including the impact on his family. The speakers discuss the emotional aspects of Cohen's testimony and how it might resonate with the jury, emphasizing the contrast between his past and present actions and the potential influence on their perception of his credibility.

20:05

đŸ€” Assessing Cohen's Credibility and the Political Spectacle

The fifth paragraph explores the public's perception of Michael Cohen's credibility and the political showmanship surrounding the trial. It discusses the presence of Republican politicians and the media's role in amplifying the trial's narrative. The speakers also touch upon the potential implications of the trial for Trump's political future and the strategies used by Trump's supporters to deflect criticism and rally his base.

25:06

👕 Cohen's Merchandising and the Defense's Cross-Examination

The sixth paragraph details the defense's cross-examination strategy, focusing on Michael Cohen's merchandising efforts, particularly his 'Jail Trump' t-shirts. It discusses the optics of Cohen profiting off the trial and the potential damage to his credibility. The speakers also consider the effectiveness of the defense's attempts to paint Cohen as a vengeful liar and the challenges the prosecution faces in countering these narratives.

30:08

đŸ•”ïžâ€â™‚ïž Legal Analysis of Cohen's Testimony and the Defense's Tactics

The seventh paragraph provides a legal analysis of the significance of Michael Cohen's testimony and the defense's tactics. It discusses the potential impact of Cohen's past lies and his current media activities on his credibility as a witness. The speakers also evaluate the defense's attempts to create reasonable doubt and the prosecution's responsibility to address these doubts in their summation.

35:10

đŸ€ The Show of Republican Support and the Trial's Political Implications

The eighth paragraph examines the show of support from top Republican politicians during the trial and the political implications of their presence. It discusses the transformation of the GOP's stance on Trump and the potential risks for those seeking to align themselves with him. The speakers also reflect on the past reactions of Republicans to Trump's controversial actions and the contrast with their current support.

40:13

📈 The Evolution of Republican Reactions and the Trial's Significance

The ninth paragraph explores the evolution of Republican reactions to Trump's actions, as evidenced by their presence at the trial. It discusses the significance of the trial in the broader context of Trump's influence on the Republican party and the potential long-term effects on the party's image and values. The speakers also consider the implications of the trial for Trump's potential re-election campaign and the loyalty it demands from his supporters.

45:14

📊 The Shift in GOP Response and the Trial's Legacy

The tenth paragraph concludes with a reflection on the shift in the GOP's response to Trump's actions and the legacy of the trial. It discusses the changing attitudes within the Republican party and the potential for the trial to mark a new low in the party's history. The speakers also consider the personal and political risks for those involved in the trial and the potential for self-reflection among Trump's supporters.

50:16

đŸ›ïž The Trial as a Test of Republican Loyalty

The eleventh paragraph focuses on the trial as a test of loyalty for Republicans, particularly those seeking political advancement through alignment with Trump. It discusses the presence of Trump's potential vice presidential candidates at the trial and the implications of their support. The speakers also explore the potential consequences for those who have broken with Trump, as illustrated by the fates of figures like Mike Pence and Michael Cohen.

55:16

📉 The Decline in Republican Standards and the Pursuit of Power

The twelfth and final paragraph discusses the decline in Republican standards and the pursuit of power amidst the trial. It reflects on the past criticisms of Trump by prominent Republicans and contrasts these with the current support from party figures. The speakers also consider the implications of the trial for the Republican party's future and the potential for a re-evaluation of its values and priorities.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Cross-examination

Cross-examination is a legal procedure where the attorney for the party opposite to the one that has called a witness questions the witness. In the video, it is a pivotal part of the trial where Michael Cohen's testimony is challenged by the defense attorney, Todd Blanch, to cast doubt on his credibility. It is a key strategy used by the defense to create 'reasonable doubt' in the minds of the jury.

💡Michael Cohen

Michael Cohen is a former attorney for Donald Trump who became a key witness in a criminal case against Trump. In the video, he is portrayed as having a 'broken life' due to his involvement in the case and is described as having made 'terrible mistakes'. His demeanor, testimony, and transformation from Trump's loyalist to a witness against him form the crux of the discussion.

💡Donald Trump

Donald Trump, the 45th President of the United States, is the central figure in the trial discussed in the video. He is depicted as having a contentious relationship with Cohen, who accuses Trump of directing illegal activities. The defense attempts to discredit Cohen's testimony to protect Trump, emphasizing the high stakes of the case for the former president.

💡Reasonable Doubt

Reasonable doubt is a legal standard that requires a jury to acquit a defendant unless they are firmly convinced of the defendant's guilt. The defense's strategy, as discussed in the video, is to exploit any inconsistencies or questionable behavior in Cohen's past to create this doubt. It is a fundamental concept in criminal trials and is heavily relied upon by the defense in this case.

💡Testimony

Testimony refers to the formalé™ˆèż° (statement) of a witness under oath during a trial. Michael Cohen's testimony is a focal point in the video, as it includes damaging claims against Trump. The defense's cross-examination aims to challenge the accuracy and truthfulness of his statements, which are critical to the prosecution's case.

💡Star Witness

A star witness is a key figure in a trial whose testimony is expected to significantly influence the outcome. Michael Cohen is referred to as the star witness for the prosecution due to his insider knowledge and alleged involvement in the events under investigation. The video discusses how the defense attempts to diminish the impact of Cohen's star witness status through cross-examination.

💡Gag Order

A gag order is a legal restraint on the public communication of information about legal proceedings, often issued to protect the integrity of a trial. The video mentions that Trump is under a gag order, which restricts his public comments about the case. However, it is suggested that Trump may be indirectly influencing public opinion through others who are not under the same restrictions.

💡Credibility

Credibility refers to the believability or trustworthiness of a person or information. In the context of the video, the defense's cross-examination aims to undermine Cohen's credibility by highlighting his past lies and suggesting his current motivations for testifying could be biased. The jury's perception of Cohen's credibility is crucial to the outcome of the trial.

💡Hush Money Payments

Hush money payments are sums of money given to someone to prevent them from revealing potentially damaging information. Cohen alleges in his testimony, as discussed in the video, that Trump directed hush money payments, which is a significant element of the criminal case against Trump. The defense questions the credibility of these allegations.

💡Character Assassination

Character assassination is the act of damaging a person's reputation through false or misleading information. The video discusses how the defense attempts to portray Cohen negatively, suggesting he was 'media hungry' and had a vendetta against Trump, which could be a form of character assassination aimed at discrediting his testimony.

💡Republican Party

The Republican Party is one of the two major political parties in the United States, with the video highlighting its connection to Trump. The presence of high-ranking Republicans at the trial is noted, suggesting a show of political support for Trump. The video also contrasts the current support from the party with previous statements made by Republicans criticizing Trump's actions.

Highlights

Michael Cohen's demeanor held up under cross-examination, surprising many who expected him to be combative.

Cohen was described as a 'broken man' mourning his own mistakes during his time on the witness stand.

The defense's questioning attempted to paint Cohen as an unreliable narrator, a grifter, and someone acting out of self-interest and revenge.

Cohen's pauses while answering questions were interpreted by some as signs of careful consideration rather than deception.

The prosecution had previously addressed and contextualized many of the character attacks on Cohen, diminishing their impact.

The defense's strategy appeared to be more about sowing doubt rather than presenting a strong alternative case.

Cohen's testimony included a family intervention to distance himself from Donald Trump and his criminal activities.

The defense's line of questioning was described as erratic, with some parts being difficult to follow.

Cohen'sć”źć–ç‹±äž­ç‰čæœ—æ™źćœąè±Ąçš„ć•†ć“èą«äœœäžșèŻæźæäș€ç»™é™ȘćźĄć›ąïŒŒćŻèƒœćœ±ć“ä»–çš„ćŻäżĄćșŠă€‚

Todd Blanch, Trump's defense lawyer, began his cross-examination aggressively, setting a confrontational tone.

The defense questioned Cohen's motives, suggesting he had an unhealthy obsession with Trump and was now seeking revenge.

Cohen admitted to monetizing his relationship with Trump through his podcast and merchandise, which the defense used to question his credibility.

High-profile Republicans, including potential vice presidential candidates, were present in the courtroom, a display of loyalty to Trump.

The presence of these politicians may have been an audition for Trump's favor and a chance to show their support publicly.

Cohen's testimony and the Republicans' presence in court highlight the extreme partisanship surrounding the trial.

The defense's approach to the cross-examination suggests a strategy of confusion and misdirection due to a lack of strong factual arguments.

Cohen's behavior during the cross-examination, including his reluctance and body language, may have impacted jurors' perception of his credibility.

Transcripts

00:00

we are joined Now by Rachel matto and

00:02

Lawrence O'Donnell who was also at the

00:04

courthouse

00:05

today yeah and look the simple uh

00:09

scorecard reporting is uh not a single

00:12

point relevant point was scored against

00:15

Michael Con on cross-examination to

00:17

everyone's surprise the demeanor held up

00:20

because that was the suspense of last

00:21

night the suspense was wow that's the

00:24

most remarkable version of Michael con

00:26

we've ever seen you those of us who

00:28

watched him in the courtroom yesterday

00:30

but can he do it on Cross when he's

00:32

challenged he's such a defensive guy

00:34

he's such a combative guy in every other

00:37

environment but he was contained as most

00:41

people are uh by the pressures in the

00:43

confines of the courtroom especially the

00:46

witness stand you know you got to

00:47

remember that when lives end up in a

00:51

criminal courtroom and you are the key

00:55

witness for a criminal prosecution yours

00:58

is a broken life because you are here as

01:02

uh the eyewitness to your friend's

01:05

murder and you are part of a tragedy

01:08

yourself and so Michael Cohen's life was

01:11

broken by all of this and what you saw

01:14

on the witness stand was this broken man

01:17

and I love some of the what we saw from

01:20

the courtroom art there's so the the the

01:23

capturing of Michael Cohen's mournful

01:26

face which is what this was this was

01:28

someone mourning for his own mistakes

01:30

mourning for his own uh terrible

01:34

mistakes that he's made in his life and

01:35

then describing eventually what was a

01:37

family intervention to get him to turn

01:41

away from from what was literally his

01:44

life of crime with Donald Trump and save

01:48

what could be left of his life by the

01:50

simple course of telling the truth to

01:52

prosecutors doing time in prison it

01:54

turns out is going to be a consequence

01:56

of this and you know and Chris one thing

01:58

I'd say about Michael Cohen's pauses on

02:00

answering questions is I took every one

02:02

of those to actually be a smart moment

02:04

and that just might be you know the jury

02:06

won't be thinking the way I am about it

02:08

but having seen a lot of witnesses

02:10

especially lawyer Witnesses what he's

02:13

doing is he's listening to every word

02:15

you just said and

02:16

deciding how to answer it whether he

02:19

should answer it whether he should ask

02:21

for clarification and it never felt to

02:23

me like there was something weird about

02:25

the pause but it could to a jury who who

02:28

doesn't know that that's is what I see

02:30

going through his mind yeah and there

02:31

was a little bit of this there's a

02:33

little bit of this thing happened having

02:34

been through depositions you know that

02:36

there's a little bit of this a question

02:38

is asked and you sort of quibble the

02:40

characterization so you brush it back a

02:42

little bit so then blanch comes back so

02:45

were was he at one point there was a big

02:47

standoff other we said was that a lie he

02:49

says well it wasn't truthful yes but was

02:51

it a lie well if you want to call it lie

02:53

he's like I'm not asking if you want me

02:54

to call it a lie I'm ask you call it a

02:56

lie there's a few of those standoffs um

02:58

but again yes I think that was

03:00

intentional on con's part right because

03:03

he is a lawyer he is being careful and

03:05

he does understand the weight and I

03:06

think that last point you know the

03:08

weight of all this sure which I again

03:11

when we were talking yesterday and

03:12

everyone was talking like is this going

03:14

to last it was very clear today that

03:15

kind of spectral presence that he had

03:17

this sort of gaunt broken guy who's you

03:19

know that that remained uh throughout ra

03:22

Rachel obviously uh you were following

03:25

wrapped closely today I'm sure uh what

03:29

was your big take

03:31

my big takeaway was is this all there is

03:35

um from the defense yeah I mean I think

03:39

that you know the defense is under no

03:40

obligation to put any Witnesses forward

03:42

at all um Lawrence has been very um

03:45

articulate and persuasive and saying

03:47

that there's 0% chance that they will

03:49

put the defendant that they will put

03:51

their own client Donald Trump on on the

03:53

stand at in his own defense but we don't

03:56

know if they'll put anybody and so if

03:59

they don't

04:00

um this is their defense the

04:02

cross-examination of Michael Cohen is

04:04

the defense's case and to get what what

04:08

blanch was able to get out of him today

04:11

there was nothing which either makes me

04:13

feel like they must be incredibly

04:15

confident in their ability to try to get

04:17

a mistrial ruling here or something

04:20

surprising is going to happen on

04:22

Thursday or they just didn't bring it

04:24

because there really was nothing

04:26

especially when you consider that the

04:28

when the prosecution laid out their case

04:30

at the outset they basically said this

04:32

is a documents case we are going to put

04:34

Michael Cohen on the stand he's a very

04:36

controversial guy and for good reason

04:37

and you're going to hear about why but

04:40

everything that we are going to need to

04:41

prove to you in order for you to come

04:43

back with a guilty verdict will be

04:45

bolstered by corroborating evidence by

04:47

multiple Witnesses and by documents and

04:49

thus far they spent the last couple of

04:50

weeks doing that giving all the

04:52

documents authenticating all the

04:53

documents giving all the cooperating

04:54

witness testimony they get to their

04:56

culminating witness Michael Cohen and he

04:59

performs

05:00

perfectly as a witness for them he

05:02

doesn't lose his cool as you guys were

05:04

saying he answers all the right

05:05

questions he doesn't seem to you know go

05:08

into weird soliloquies or sidebars that

05:10

might be picked apart on

05:12

cross-examination they hand them over to

05:14

the defense today after lunch I have to

05:17

tell you I was on tentor hooks I thought

05:18

this was it this is how we're going to

05:19

see they're going to keep Donald Trump

05:21

out of prison and it was just nothing so

05:24

maybe Thursday's going to be something

05:27

um but otherwise it looks like they're

05:29

just not Moun a defense at all I I was

05:31

um I I was struck by the same thing not

05:34

only that's you know where's the beef

05:38

but also the sort of spaghetti against

05:39

the wall nature of of the line of

05:41

questioning from from from the defense

05:43

Rachel just they they try to paint Cohen

05:46

as a bunch of different things an

05:49

unreliable narrator or a grifter or you

05:51

know someone who was in it for himself

05:53

selfish or a spurned lover sped lover

05:56

someone who was obsessed with Donald

05:57

Trump and then when he was cast aside

05:59

for you know not getting a position in

06:01

the White House not getting R pri's job

06:02

he was you know intent on destroying

06:04

Donald Trump um did you find any of

06:07

those characterizations particularly

06:09

effective I might have found any one of

06:13

them effective had the prosecution not

06:16

laid all of them out in advance to tell

06:19

us put them all in context and tell us

06:20

all what they mean I mean I didn't know

06:23

that Michael Cohen had called the

06:26

defense lawyer Todd blanch a crying

06:29

little

06:30

some swear word like the very first

06:31

thing that he led with I didn't know

06:33

that he had like complained about

06:34

Trump's defense lers in a Tik Tok video

06:36

or something like that that was new okay

06:38

is that going to change my view about

06:40

what Michael Goen brings to this case no

06:42

but the the prosecution did a good job

06:44

at eliciting from all of the other

06:46

Witnesses oh yeah I couldn't stand

06:48

Michael Cohen oh yeah Michael Cohen

06:50

called himself a lawyer Michael Cohen oh

06:52

a fixer he only fixes things that he

06:54

broke we got all of this stuff all of

06:56

the ad hominum anything you could want

06:58

about Michael we've already had and then

07:01

they put it all in context here's what

07:03

he was when he served Donald Trump here

07:05

is when he stopped serving Donald Trump

07:07

here is what he has done since here are

07:09

the sins he has committed in the way he

07:11

has atoned it's all been out there in

07:13

advance so for Todd blanch to be up

07:14

there is Donald Trump's defense lawyer

07:16

saying oh but Michael Cohen didn't you

07:19

lie to Congress the jury must be sitting

07:21

there thinking yeah we heard the

07:22

explanation for that already we know

07:23

what that is why are you bringing it up

07:25

again the the thing that struck me today

07:28

on that on that point on the cross is

07:30

again I do think I mean there are

07:33

plausible stories to tell here like for

07:36

instance right when they're spending a

07:37

lot of time on his podcast and the fact

07:39

that you sell there's a a moment with

07:41

all the different merchandise you sell

07:43

on your website or your Associated

07:45

websites to show Donald Trump in prison

07:46

and send him to the big house not the

07:48

White House and is that about President

07:49

Trump and yes it is okay there there's a

07:52

story that tells that this guy is so out

07:53

for Revenge he's going to say whatever

07:55

it takes to put him behind bars which is

07:56

what's being implied but that point part

08:00

at least was legible to me there were

08:02

large parts of the Cross today that I

08:04

could not follow and I I think I'm

08:07

pretty good good following stuff

08:09

generally I followed most of I followed

08:11

the direct there were and part of this

08:13

I'll just say is like a small color

08:15

thing and this is something we can talk

08:17

about with our legal Experts of Le you

08:19

want our weigh in in the direct all of

08:22

the evidence is being put up for all of

08:24

us to see which is extremely helpful

08:26

because you see the documents here's the

08:28

past up for your man was during the

08:32

cross when they would present a document

08:35

to Michael Cohen to refresh his memory

08:37

it was not admitted into evidence

08:39

broadly which meant he's looking at a

08:41

screen you don't see what the document

08:43

is again this is intentional and it

08:45

means that it's really hard to follow

08:48

the whole thing there were long lines of

08:50

questioning where I was like I'm just

08:53

lost here what are you talking I was

08:55

like what are we doing with the phones

08:56

why are we on the phone still I don't

08:58

get the phones thing and it got a little

09:00

worse because Michael Cohen's looking at

09:01

a document that none of us can see and

09:03

he's saying you are misre representing

09:06

what's on this document okay so it's not

09:08

working on any level but hey welcome to

09:12

the representation of a guilty client uh

09:14

this is what it looks like when a

09:16

criminal defense lawyer has a client who

09:18

did exactly what stormmy Daniels says he

09:21

did this is what it looks like when

09:23

you're representing a client who did

09:25

indeed uh conspire to create false

09:28

business records

09:30

they don't have if they had something

09:31

better you would have heard it in the

09:33

first 10 minutes they don't have

09:35

anything better you're not going to hear

09:36

anything better and the game is and it's

09:39

a legitimate legal game is is they're

09:42

going to try to create not just

09:44

Reasonable Doubt but presidential level

09:47

reasonable doubt they're going to want

09:49

you to bring a higher level of

09:51

Reasonable Doubt here because this man

09:54

was President so you can't possibly

09:56

convict him on the word of that man

09:58

right

10:00

it was um the analysis of some of our

10:03

legal experts and friends that stormmy

10:06

Daniels performed better on Cross so are

10:10

they not strong at Cross is that I mean

10:13

do we have a pattern here yet well I

10:15

think it's a combination of of sort of

10:17

undirect for stormmy Daniels I think you

10:21

you have to remember it's a high-profile

10:22

matter um for both the prosecutor it's

10:25

not every day that you have this searing

10:28

spotlight for Stormy Daniels it's not

10:31

every day that not only are you

10:32

testifying under Earth in a criminal

10:34

case but a searing Spotlight so you can

10:36

understand why direct which should be

10:37

sort of the easiest can be Rocky for the

10:40

witness and the prosecutor i' I've not

10:43

been in with this amount of scrutiny but

10:45

I can tell you you I I used to say a

10:48

high-profile case brings out every flaw

10:51

you have and if you have a lot like me

10:53

that's a lot to bring out and you know

10:55

and for a witness just think about you

10:57

know Stormy Daniels um who might have

10:59

you know may not be proud of everything

11:01

in her life and certainly for Michael

11:03

Cohen who has to admit a lot it's that's

11:06

it's difficult so there's a reason

11:08

direct can sometimes be stilted but I

11:11

think Stormy Daniels on Cross um was I

11:15

mean just I'm sure Susan necklace isn't

11:17

going to like hearing this but I think

11:19

Susan necklace humanized her and allowed

11:22

her to speak and to and she was more

11:24

comfortable and I think that happens

11:26

when you have another day to sort of

11:28

relax um I think that um Michael Cohen

11:32

having heard him live on you know I

11:35

thought he was sort of remarkably good I

11:37

also think people should I think stop

11:39

saying oh he's a different person um

11:42

Lawrence odonnell made this point when

11:45

you're in court under oath you are a

11:47

different person it is a different

11:49

circumstance you act differently I've

11:51

had I've been a witness sometimes you

11:53

you take that oath so seriously it is a

11:56

you are careful you you know people have

11:58

different

12:00

parts of themselves it's like getting

12:01

pulled over for secondary screening when

12:03

when your whole whole group is yes ma'am

12:05

yes sir no sir no I didn't um I will say

12:08

also that you know Todd blanch it's an

12:11

interesting choice to have him do this

12:14

um just because it's your first time

12:16

doesn't mean you'll be bad at it but you

12:18

know he is not an experienced defense

12:20

lawyer he's an experienced prosecutor so

12:23

it's a very different art form I think

12:26

so far with the witness she's got so

12:28

much baggage and there as you've just

12:30

heard there's so many ways to attack him

12:33

um you're not hearing what you usually

12:35

get from a defense lawyer which is clear

12:39

telegraphed themes to a jury um and so I

12:43

was frankly shocked that he started the

12:46

way he did it was I totally agree

12:49

Christie Beyond thin skinned um rude um

12:53

it was clearly going to get an objection

12:55

I am not surprised that you you do not

12:57

want to have your first line of of

13:00

argument sustained by the judge jurors

13:03

tend to like judges and sort of follow

13:06

their lead so that was just not great

13:08

and there's so many better ways to deal

13:10

with it I also feel like just because a

13:12

lot of the stuff deals with a special

13:14

counsil office and I know personally

13:17

there were things that I thought were

13:19

misleading and I don't mean that the

13:22

defense shouldn't have been asking it

13:24

but I was like oh like come on they

13:27

tried to say didn't Donal Trump sort of

13:30

and you during the Russian investigation

13:32

you were told not to speak to Donald

13:33

Trump as if like somehow you've been

13:35

shunned and that Donald Trump couldn't

13:38

possibly have told you through

13:40

indirectly what to say when you

13:42

testified in front of Congress that is

13:45

not how it works in these kind of cases

13:47

everyone is lawyered up the fact that

13:49

you're told that means you're inside the

13:51

tent not outside the tent and the

13:54

suggestion that this means that Donald

13:56

Trump had no way of communicating to him

13:59

we saw the tweeting at him the day

14:01

before and after yes and you don't think

14:03

lawyers talk and again I'm not saying

14:05

that they're saying a lie but I mean

14:06

they can communicate to what they think

14:08

is a truthful story um as to what should

14:12

be said and so I I just thought there

14:14

was some fast and loose with the facts

14:18

well and that's a fact problem I mean

14:20

there seems to be I just want to be

14:21

really blunt about what's happening

14:22

right now there is clearly a performance

14:25

issue that judge Maran has noted with

14:27

objections that have been sustain

14:29

it's been described by reporters in the

14:31

room on the times live blog as as

14:33

erratic line of questioning um I mean if

14:36

he bombs at the performance level what

14:39

where does that leave you with Trump

14:41

historically usually usually get the

14:44

boot as the lawyer I mean many

14:46

lawers but Trump doesn't I mean Trump

14:49

didn't care about you know where you

14:50

went to law school he wants you to look

14:52

the it just feels like this may be a

14:54

moment that's why he lost the he lost

14:56

the decision the linaa or he lost civil

14:59

fraud trial yet Al Hab performed just in

15:02

his eyes how a lawyer should perform on

15:04

his and who was there sitting in the

15:06

second row today Alina Haba not there

15:09

arguing in his defense but sitting there

15:11

as a witness and a supporter I felt like

15:13

there was some channeling of Donald

15:14

Trump at the beginning because one of

15:15

the first things we get out is he's a

15:18

he's a liar and a f and a folder or you

15:21

know a

15:24

flipper flippers yeah liar but that was

15:27

one of the first things that came out

15:29

was that he's a leaker to the media um

15:31

and these are all things that Donald

15:33

Trump is very focused on and these are

15:34

not things that Trump is I guess my

15:36

point is we what are you handing me you

15:37

read it what do you got what do you got

15:41

so this is happening right now we should

15:44

keep an eye on what's happening right

15:45

now I am not a lawyer and I wasn't in

15:47

the room but I am a student of Donald

15:49

Trump and when someone is viewed to have

15:51

bombed in some way at a performance

15:53

level he doesn't care if you're the

15:54

smartest lawyer who's ever breathed in

15:56

air and so I think this may be a tenuous

15:58

day I'm going to peek over a conserv

16:00

media to see what they say two two

16:01

things number one it's too late to get

16:03

rid of his lawyers the person that is do

16:04

the cross examination is the one that is

16:07

doing the cross examination at this

16:08

point the second part is being inside of

16:10

that Courthouse here today usually I've

16:12

been outside here getting the notes from

16:13

our team and Sue and Andrew were like

16:16

you've got to go bear witness to this

16:18

and I'm glad that I did because the eyes

16:21

we come back to the eyes being shut for

16:24

2 minutes at a time he'd have his eyes

16:26

shut this morning and then he'd open

16:27

them quickly mention something to his

16:29

attorney but then go back to his eyes

16:30

shut and you know I don't know whether

16:32

he's sleeping or not but what was taking

16:34

me aback was that it was Defiance of the

16:37

process right he can't there's a gag

16:39

order placed on him he can't go and

16:41

stand up and speak out in his own

16:43

defense in that courtroom unless he

16:44

takes the stand himself for him keeping

16:47

his eyes shut almost in a way of like

16:48

disregarding it I don't care what about

16:51

these proceedings with the jury right

16:52

there was his act of defiance it really

16:55

does feel that way we were talking about

16:56

this in lunch and I've come down on

16:58

having seen him do every day there's no

16:59

other it's not like it's just one day

17:01

this happened it is every day for 80 to

17:04

90% of the Court proceedings he has his

17:07

eyes closed he occasionally will KN off

17:10

but that's not what's going on he has

17:11

his his eyes closed and I think it is an

17:13

act of Def % of he's sending a message

17:16

and the jury's picking up on something

17:17

there but that's he doesn't care it's so

17:20

interesting um and what's happening

17:21

right now is something we'll keep an eye

17:23

on um I want to ask you about the the

17:25

final sort of chunk of the narrative

17:28

under IR that that was this morning I

17:31

mean some old characters Jeff sessions I

17:33

mean I I had a million new questions

17:36

about what when sessions recuses himself

17:39

from all we went back and looked at it I

17:41

covered it as and believed it to be

17:43

sessions recusing himself from the

17:45

Russia question if you go back and watch

17:46

the video he says he's I'm recusing

17:48

myself from all campaign related things

17:50

is there a I mean what Cohen testifies

17:51

to today again under oath is that

17:53

sessions was going to take care of

17:54

pecker that is not Russia related that

17:57

is the cover up right and he says that

17:59

Donald Trump specifically told him that

18:01

sessions would have his back it's

18:03

incredible it was a direct line

18:05

essentially Donald Trump saying we're

18:06

going to get into the White House don't

18:08

worry about any of this the justice

18:09

department is going to be on our side

18:11

you're taken care of here and if if I

18:14

may when we're talking about the closing

18:16

there of the direct it Michael Cohen to

18:19

Andrew's point about the human side of

18:21

this right all of us have different

18:23

personalities at 8: a.m. may be

18:24

different than 8:00 p.m. Saturday Von

18:26

may be different than Monday Von okay

18:29

tell us more Tik Tok Tik Tok Tik Tok

18:32

bone may be different than going to the

18:34

Opera Von okay and with Michael Cohen I

18:36

think that that's the reality he was

18:37

talking about being on Tik Tok but then

18:39

what you saw in there was somebody that

18:42

felt like to me he pled guilty to those

18:44

federal charges just yesterday and was

18:46

being sentenced when he was explaining

18:48

looking eye to eye with those jurors of

18:51

what he pleaded guilty to in being in

18:54

prison for more than a year you were

18:56

hearing a man who was leaving his wife

18:58

and his child behind that was the human

19:01

that in that moment and I believe a real

19:04

human that came out and that is what the

19:06

jury the line that he delivered there

19:08

quote I regret doing things for him that

19:10

I should not have lying bulling people

19:13

in order to AFF effectuate the goal it

19:15

sounded like a regretful man somebody

19:17

who at least that moment in time was

19:19

that human all the other Michaels could

19:22

very well be true but in that moment

19:24

that is who the jury HT well and that's

19:25

the Michael that was a piece of

19:29

the crime I mean that's the Michael that

19:31

the jury's going to have to believe on

19:33

those questions I agree and I I think

19:35

also it's wrong for people to be

19:37

thinking to confusing is he believable

19:41

about things he experienced and um

19:44

conversations he's had meetings he's had

19:47

um why things were happening and um

19:50

comparing that to is he credible about

19:53

his own internal motivations now about

19:57

and about sort of being with himself

20:00

about um can he fully admit I did

20:03

something wrong in every situation those

20:05

are very different things um and you

20:08

don't have to believe that he is like

20:10

completely internalized like who he is

20:12

now and that he is like he knows he

20:15

should feel sorry whether he really

20:17

really feels sorry or he knows that's

20:19

where he needs to be is a really

20:21

different attribute about a person um

20:25

and it's funny because this is where

20:27

having dealt with cooperator and I think

20:29

defense lawers deal with this all the

20:30

time when you have witnesses and at that

20:33

point it's their clients and those are

20:35

just very different things and I think

20:36

people sort of confus the two this is

20:39

just like in terms of his own emotions

20:41

about how he feels now and whether he's

20:44

regretful or not is just not the issue

20:47

right it whether he's a fully reformed

20:49

man is is is interesting and it'll be on

20:51

the minds I'm sure of the jurors they'll

20:53

wonder that but in terms of being a

20:54

credible witness to the criminal scheme

20:56

that he and and Alan weiselberg put down

20:58

on paper and walked into Trump's office

21:00

that's a different question that going

21:01

have to answer I want to ask you the

21:04

line to get into the courtroom today

21:05

started forming last night people camped

21:08

out with sleeping bags and pillows one

21:11

woman told the New York Times she had

21:12

paid

21:13

$750 for someone to hold a space in line

21:17

for her another man reportedly sold his

21:19

spot in line for

21:21

$2,000 but as much as seats inside the

21:23

courtroom today were the hottest ticket

21:25

in town the real circus today was

21:27

outside the courtroom room where first

21:29

Republican Speaker of the House Mike

21:31

Johnson and then a gaggle of Trump's

21:33

vice presidential hopefuls all held

21:35

press conferences defending Trump

21:37

attacking the trial and

21:39

counterprogramming what was going on

21:40

inside that courtroom joining us now is

21:43

Michelle Goldberg opinion colist at the

21:45

New York Times and Andrew rice

21:46

contributing editor at New York Magazine

21:48

um Michelle and Andrew thank you for

21:50

joining us as we dissect exactly what

21:52

happened I just wonder Michelle if you

21:53

have thoughts on what the group text was

21:54

like as they all coordinated their

21:56

outfits that Doug ber and they must have

22:00

been disappointed that Trump I think had

22:01

a yellow

22:02

tie they got the wrong message I mean

22:05

the thing that I I was actually glad

22:07

that they were all in the in the

22:09

courtroom today I mean I wonder if at

22:11

any point they had a flicker of

22:12

recognition that this was a trial this

22:15

was a day in the trial that was all

22:17

about what excessive loyalty to Donald

22:19

Trump gets you I mean I just felt like

22:22

they were you know kind of looking at

22:23

the ghost a sense of yeah I mean I don't

22:26

know if if maybe some of them are

22:27

capable of it but I just just wonder if

22:29

it ever you know that there was a point

22:31

at the very end of his testimony when

22:34

Michael Cohen talked about his regrets

22:36

and how he had you know his loyal out of

22:39

loyalty to Donald Trump he had betrayed

22:41

his own moral compass and at Great cost

22:44

to himself and his family and I wonder

22:47

if there was even like a flicker in Mike

22:49

Johnson's in Mike Johnson's mind about

22:52

kind of what he was doing at that very

22:54

moment I I don't know I don't know if

22:56

anybody knows the answer to that

22:57

including Mike johnon um Andrew I was

23:00

struck by the fact I mean I thought to

23:01

Michelle's point it was very appropo

23:03

that these individuals showed up today

23:05

because in Trump's mind the only the

23:07

thing this is all politics right this is

23:09

auditioning this is a vep Stakes

23:11

audition this is about how he can milk

23:12

this for campaign contributions this is

23:14

about what it does to his standing as

23:15

the Republican front runner um and in

23:17

your piece for New York Magazine you

23:18

write before coming into court TR in the

23:21

morning this was yesterday Trump had

23:23

waved the time story accompanying this

23:25

poll that shows him up ahead in front of

23:27

reporters in the hallway saying

23:29

it shows us leading Everywhere by a lot

23:31

let the star witness testify Trump

23:33

seemed to be saying he was winning where

23:35

it mattered do you think today did

23:36

anything to disabuse him of the idea

23:37

that he's winning uh I I doubt it I mean

23:41

you know that the I think that the

23:43

interesting thing that's going on in the

23:44

courtroom is you see these people as you

23:47

say kind of coming into to almost sort

23:49

of pay homage to uh to Trump sitting

23:53

quietly um and and listening to this

23:55

incredibly damning testimony and and

23:57

drawing conclusions that are maybe quite

23:59

different than what the jury is drawing

24:01

but the most interesting thing I thought

24:02

about Mike Johnson was that it's

24:04

probably mentioned by others but you

24:06

know he didn't even come into the

24:07

courtroom he just he just was in there

24:09

for a minute and he came out and decried

24:11

the the The Witch Hunt that was going on

24:13

inside he put his timing on that bench

24:15

he didn't he he didn't he didn't get

24:17

there he didn't he he didn't uh he

24:19

didn't didn't check his cell phone

24:22

there's also another aspect to this

24:23

which is of course I mean I I found it

24:25

both sort of thuggish and pathetic in

24:27

equal measure but but there's another

24:29

aspect to this which is that Donald

24:31

Trump has a gag order that gag order

24:33

prohibits him from making certain

24:35

statements he wants to still make those

24:37

statements so he is getting other people

24:39

who are not subject to the gag order to

24:41

come and make those statements and it's

24:43

it really is the equivalent of like I'm

24:44

not touching you I'm not touching you

24:46

like it really is that every day because

24:48

they come out and they say things that

24:51

are

24:52

obviously I'm not saying like literally

24:55

copied and pasted from him or GI given

24:57

directly but you know people know what

24:58

Donald Trump wants to hear they parrot

25:00

the lines of attack specifically lines

25:02

of attack that are things that he cannot

25:06

say well and specifically lines of

25:08

attack directed at the judge's daughter

25:10

is a hobby horse of Donald Trumps we

25:12

have a a little bit of that sound let's

25:14

play

25:15

it the judge inside his daughter is

25:19

making millions of dollars running

25:22

against Donald Trump raising money for

25:24

Donald Trump's political opponents

25:25

you've got relatives of the judge uh

25:28

that are benefiting financially the only

25:30

thing that's being done wrong is by this

25:32

judge his daughter's making money

25:34

raising money for Democrats the real

25:36

bookkeeping that we need accounting of

25:38

is Judge Merchant's own family member

25:41

collecting millions of dollars as a

25:43

democratic operative the judge's own

25:46

daughter is making millions of dollars

25:49

doing online fundraising for

25:51

Democrats they're using this trial as a

25:53

hook it's so corrupt it's so corrupt and

25:56

everybody knows it I mean Mike you

25:58

wearing the red tie yeah vivec I'm

25:59

wearing the red tie you got the note

26:01

about the judge's daughter I got it Doug

26:02

Byron you got it I mean it it is not

26:04

they're not even trying to hide what

26:05

they're doing well in court yesterday

26:07

actually I I was sitting close enough

26:09

that I could actually look over Trump's

26:10

shoulder and see what he was reading at

26:12

one point he was actually reading the

26:13

quotes that the these individuals were

26:16

and going through and making notations

26:18

with a pen on the on the on the paper

26:20

before or after while testimony was

26:22

going on while Michael Cohen was

26:24

testifying against him he was actually

26:26

going and going through and and

26:28

annotating and editing the the quotes

26:30

that these people are going I mean in

26:31

addition to being utterly humiliating

26:34

and transparent there's also a real

26:36

question about whether this is legal

26:38

part of the gag order Michelle is that

26:39

you cannot direct others to violate the

26:42

gag order for you which is clearly

26:44

what's happening here right I mean it's

26:45

sort of like he gets hit for retweeting

26:47

so instead of retweeting he just gets

26:49

the people to come in human retweets

26:51

there are human retweets that's exactly

26:52

what they are and I mean and right and

26:55

Tommy tuberville was out there saying I

26:57

am here to well in right I'm I'm I'm

27:00

breaking the gag order I'm trying to get

27:02

around the gag order um and I don't even

27:04

know if there is a body of law that

27:07

addresses this because it seems like so

27:09

outside the norm there is it is it is

27:12

and I'm no legal expert it is difficult

27:15

to prove and it's also like what

27:17

leverage does Judge Maran have over

27:19

Byron Donald's and you know VI ramaswami

27:22

but but you would think in the context

27:24

of a criminal trial perhaps Chris

27:27

individuals would be less trepidacious

27:29

about breaking the law well I think

27:31

there's I think there's a sort of like

27:32

testing the limit ethos that is taken

27:35

over the party but the other thing about

27:36

it is I thought it was so interesting

27:37

today they all said the same thing which

27:39

is that I'm here as a friend they

27:40

clearly been all told to say I'm here as

27:42

a friend and what's interesting about

27:44

that is that uh he doesn't have friends

27:47

right because his friends Vias Swami

27:50

Rachel made this point previous hour but

27:52

think about put yourself in the position

27:54

that you find yourself you are facing

27:56

criminal trial in New York Court

27:59

like I would hope that my friends and

28:01

family would be there to support me I

28:02

think it would be terrifying I think it'

28:03

be a very vulnerable moment and it would

28:05

mean a lot to me to have my actual

28:06

friends and family he doesn't have that

28:09

there Eric and Laura Trump were there

28:11

today those are actual members of his

28:13

family but by and large there has not

28:15

been family and I don't think the man

28:17

has friends in the way that we

28:19

understand it and so instead this weird

28:22

Similac of friendship is being provided

28:25

by

28:26

vanquished primary

28:28

contestants whose voices voided I miss

28:31

that voice of V ramaswami wow so

28:34

soothing uh to hear that the microphone

28:36

again like that's what he has instead I

28:38

mean but there is the reality though

28:40

that this is a show for two different

28:41

audiences right there's the legal

28:43

audience and then there's to some degree

28:45

the the the right-wing Echo chamber and

28:47

I do Wonder Michelle the utility of

28:49

having this parade of contestants show

28:52

up and say the same thing about the

28:53

judge being corrupt and his daughter

28:55

being corrupt and and the jury right I

28:57

mean I think Tommy tuberville said the

28:59

jury he if they are American just throw

29:02

in presumably citizens is what call just

29:05

throw in illegal migration just for good

29:07

measure to stoke the eye of the of the

29:10

base it isn't I mean regardless of the

29:13

fact that it's not based in fact the

29:15

repetition over and over and over again

29:17

has worked for Trump in the past well

29:18

right and I think it's it's a

29:19

prophylactic against if he gets a guilty

29:21

ver correct to kind of invalidate it in

29:24

the minds of his followers and maybe

29:26

people the kind of people who told ERS

29:28

that it would matter to them if a

29:29

presidential candidate was convicted of

29:31

a felony and so it's a way to sort of

29:34

neutralize that and maybe even turn it

29:38

into an advantage among people who

29:40

either like Donald Trump's gangster

29:42

Persona or see him as a kind of martyr

29:45

for um their particular Grievances and

29:47

in the meantime um the the guys that

29:50

auditioned today Andrew did any of them

29:51

strike you as particularly more

29:53

effective than others I mean from within

29:55

the courtroom none of them struck me as

29:57

anything because really just just potted

29:59

plants sitting there and listening to

30:02

the playing on their phone was live

30:05

tweeting while while while it was going

30:07

on but really it's a it's a it's a kind

30:10

of ultimate show of loyalty to sit

30:12

through this um at times quite

30:14

stultifyingly boring testimony about

30:16

about checks and so on and then and and

30:19

to spend your entire day doing that and

30:21

then go out and deliver a speech um

30:23

these are all with the exception of Rob

30:25

Swan like you know like these are all Ed

30:28

office holders presumably have other

30:30

things that they could be doing to serve

30:31

the American people Swami is a little

30:33

unclear but the other ones do have jobs

30:35

as last I checked speaker of the house

30:36

maybe has some things to do maybe

30:38

Michelle Goldberg and Andrew rice thank

30:39

you so much for your time and thoughts

30:41

tonight guys really appreciate

30:43

it there is no doubt that Michael Cohen

30:46

has been a strong witness against

30:47

defending Trump driving headlines about

30:50

his testimony that has basically marked

30:53

the official finale of this case he is

30:56

the last witness and you can see the

30:59

check stubs the fake receipts the

31:01

Loyalty the inside knowledge that is now

31:04

hurting defendant Trump but today the

31:07

defense lawyers got their turn they

31:09

began an effort to blunt Cohen's

31:11

testimony to undercut his credibility

31:14

attorney Todd blanch Came Out Swinging

31:16

his first question quoted Cohen calling

31:18

blanch himself an exploitive the

31:22

question was overruled but it set the

31:24

combative tone and so far Cohen kept his

31:26

composure we just discussed that that

31:28

earlier in the hour he's reportedly been

31:29

preparing for months but if prosecutors

31:33

fail to convict trump it will likely

31:36

turn on this cross-examination of Cohen

31:39

today and Thursday because he's not a

31:42

perfect

31:43

witness and this is the defense's chance

31:49

to not just talk about Reasonable Doubt

31:52

but to really raise the doubts in the

31:54

jury's mind about this star witness and

31:56

co-conspirator today the defense

31:59

questions suggested many different

32:02

doubts is Cohen's Story the whole truth

32:06

did he have an unhealthy and even

32:07

unhinged psycho dramatic relationship

32:09

with Donald Trump whom he once said he

32:12

was obsessed

32:16

with at one point the lawyer asked and

32:19

Cohen largely acknowledged himself as a

32:21

kind of cult

32:23

follower here's another question the

32:25

lawyers are getting at is Michael Cohen

32:27

so bitter

32:28

even understandably bitter that his

32:31

claims have become

32:32

unreliable can he be trusted the lawyer

32:35

asked this afternoon if Cohen admits

32:38

publicly that his goal is to see Trump

32:40

convicted in this case when he was asked

32:44

about that this was just within the last

32:45

few hours this is brand new he said sure

32:47

yeah that's what I want to see happen I

32:48

want the conviction here's another

32:50

question does Cohen still lie to

32:52

investigators because he's done that

32:54

before and since he's making money off

32:57

the Trump relationship and this very

32:59

trial can his testimony be

33:02

trusted and then one of the more

33:04

damaging lines of questioning

33:06

today why should the jury trust Michael

33:09

Cohen's Fidelity to this trial and its

33:11

rules and a fair process if he wouldn't

33:14

even honor basic requests from

33:16

prosecutors to stop doing the TV and the

33:19

Tik toks and the social media where he

33:21

would attack Trump even up through and

33:24

during this very trial now as

33:27

journalists welcome all these people we

33:28

interview them you may have noticed we

33:29

do that but legally I have to tell you

33:32

that is a fair question and the judge

33:34

has even rebuked Cohen through his

33:36

lawyers for all of the public

33:38

statements now none of these questions

33:40

is some kind of deal breaker but

33:42

together the defense lawyers are trying

33:44

to cut and diminish and eventually

33:46

liquidate The credibility that Cohen has

33:49

and the story that he's told to the

33:51

friendlier audience the prosecutors over

33:53

yesterday and this morning and they're

33:56

more you know linear question about how

33:58

he went from loyalist to this star

34:02

witness now

34:04

remember the jury is not made of Highly

34:08

informed news and politics junkies

34:10

they're mostly hearing details about

34:12

Cohen's Evolution that are new to them

34:15

and the defense harped on Cohen's shift

34:18

as if it were fundamentally suspicious

34:21

they suggested through the questioning

34:22

today and we'll see what they do

34:23

Thursday that he is a person who will

34:26

maybe say anything anybody

34:28

depending on his own personal interest

34:29

that day and that the government can't

34:32

possibly hang a case Beyond A Reasonable

34:34

Doubt on a witness like this to prove a

34:37

defendant's

34:38

intent about schemes that Cohen helped

34:41

pull

34:42

off I know Mr Trump I've stood by him

34:46

shoulder toosh shoulder for the past

34:48

decade Donald cares for no one or

34:51

anything other than himself I'm

34:53

obviously very loyal and very dedicated

34:55

to Mr Trump I am going to jail I think

34:58

he's going to be a great president

35:00

because of my decision to help Mr Trump

35:03

hide that payment that's a back and

35:05

forth that we've all followed but for

35:07

this jury a lot of the details are

35:10

pretty new it might jog a memory here or

35:12

there but a lot of it's like whoa and so

35:14

they're hearing two competing versions

35:15

of the same story and one is of course

35:19

this guy shifted who wouldn't look what

35:22

he went through and then went to prison

35:25

and now he has every reason to tell the

35:26

truth but there's other story is this

35:29

guy might have gone to prison for his

35:30

own reasons might have been the type of

35:32

person who ended up in prison anyway and

35:34

look how he's acting not then and not

35:37

after the break and not leading up to

35:38

the trial look how he's acting in the

35:40

last few weeks and some of this evidence

35:42

I want to be clear legally is not as

35:44

important as the secret tapes or the

35:46

actual Financial receipts that defendant

35:48

Trump is facing but it was notable and

35:51

inside the courtroom today I definitely

35:53

saw jurors who were watching closely as

35:56

many of them saw possibly for the first

35:58

time how Cohen's podcast arm he has this

36:03

thing the mopa podcast SS this t-shirt

36:06

you see on the screen and I want to be

36:07

clear this shirt was shown today was

36:10

admitted into evidence to the jury that

36:12

this is a person who didn't just have an

36:14

experience with Trump or has some anger

36:16

with Trump but is looking at what many

36:18

people still see as the Presumed

36:20

Innocent former president of United

36:21

States just stuck behind bars there and

36:24

imagined

36:26

incarceration all yours for you know the

36:29

good price of $27.99 or whatever it was

36:32

other items that Cohen sells through his

36:34

company were also admitted into evidence

36:36

and the lawyer asked Cohen what you

36:38

about what you're seeing here now I want

36:40

to be clear this was referenced they

36:42

didn't play this exact video in court we

36:44

pulled it for you Michael Cohen wearing

36:47

that same jail Trump shirt and he did it

36:49

during the trial on one of his internet

36:51

live streams so as with Stormy Daniels

36:54

The Lawyers are trying to paint this

36:55

witness as somehow so V Ive so bent on

36:58

revenge against a person he once like

37:01

that maybe you can't take him at his

37:05

word now also we should note some of

37:07

these questions today floated theories

37:09

that don't actually undercut Cohen they

37:11

asked how he wanted out of prison early

37:13

I could tell you most people in prison

37:15

want out but Cohen's Monumental flip on

37:18

Trump occurred before he went to federal

37:20

prison so that line of questioning

37:23

doesn't really get you anywhere and

37:25

there are other observers who even with

37:26

everything I just told you

37:28

found a lot of this lacking at the lines

37:30

of attack seemed to be all over the

37:32

place and noting how Cohen continued to

37:34

keep his

37:35

cool today was not a disaster for

37:39

Michael Cohen or the

37:41

prosecution but I would tell you at

37:43

least from observing it both inside the

37:45

room and following along it wasn't good

37:48

either for them and if this is all

37:51

fairly new hearing questions about Cohen

37:53

lying and admitting lies and having

37:55

varying levels of memory and agitating

37:56

for and against against Trump to extreme

37:58

degrees if you're a juror hearing all

38:00

that for the first time and then hearing

38:02

about how he's Hawking this Trump

38:04

jumpsuit

38:05

merch well that wouldn't be great for

38:07

any witness let alone the star witness

38:08

who's pretty Central to proving Trump's

38:10

intent at the time of these alleged

38:13

crimes we're following this trial

38:15

together if later they fail to convict a

38:19

quiddle or a hung

38:22

jury you won't be that surprised about

38:25

the possible reasons why I'm not saying

38:28

they exploded the casee but today was

38:30

one of those days where you could see

38:32

Reasonable Doubt being built none of

38:34

this was a knockout but it can give the

38:36

jurors the examples the visuals things

38:39

that you can remember the t-shir to

38:41

support Reasonable Doubt especially if

38:44

some jurors already had some my point to

38:47

you today is not whether that's good or

38:49

bad news that would depend on what you

38:51

think is fair how you feel about it I

38:53

point to you today is that is part of

38:55

what is happening in this

38:57

trial now how Will trump attorneys

39:00

continue their cross exam of this very

39:02

calm version of Michael Cohen we have a

39:04

season defense attorney who represented

39:06

Trump in the second impeachment you can

39:08

actually see him right there he also

39:10

represented the Trump organization in a

39:12

fraud case William J Brennan back with

39:15

us in our trial coverage and Bill I want

39:17

you to know up front our colleague

39:18

Rachel is actually watching your remarks

39:20

here last night and mention them in our

39:22

coverage take a

39:24

look I was interested in your special

39:27

coverage today uh you had a guest on who

39:30

was very bullish on the defense um and

39:34

said that you know Michael Cohen's going

39:35

to get destroyed on

39:38

cross-examination I walked through some

39:40

of what they tried to do today your

39:43

thoughts well AR good evening thanks for

39:46

having me uh you know it's really

39:49

complicated because when I listen to

39:51

your last panel you know Lanny Davis is

39:53

a well-respected seasoned member of the

39:56

bar that I have

39:57

uh affection and respect for

39:59

representative Cummings was a giant

40:02

respected by both sides of the aisle

40:04

Reverend Sharpton you know said

40:06

wonderful things about Mr Cohen the

40:07

problem is the jury won't hear any of

40:10

that the jury's going to hear that he

40:12

there's just lie after lie after lie

40:15

then a Redemption then more lies and

40:18

this narrative that the prosecutions

40:21

trying to sell that it is all done at

40:24

the behest of trump Falls flat because

40:28

some of the crimes he uh plag guilty to

40:31

lying to the IRS uh the bankruptcy court

40:35

uh the the things related to the taxi

40:38

medallions have nothing to do with Trump

40:40

or the Trump organization so you raised

40:42

an interesting hypothetic you what if

40:44

the jury thinks this guy would have

40:46

wound up in prison anyway I don't see

40:49

any other logical deduction that's

40:52

possible and you know this guy really

40:55

it's one thing to have a witness that

40:56

lies

40:57

and you work around it you know you're

40:59

the prosecutor you get it out there but

41:01

this guy's like Olympic uh Gold Medal

41:04

winner I mean this guy's whole of Fame

41:05

liar and it's a lot to work around when

41:09

the jury sees that and judge merchan

41:11

instructs him and he will on this falses

41:14

and Unum falses and Omnibus charge which

41:16

basically says if you think he lied on

41:19

one thing you can assume you you can

41:21

find that he lied on everything when you

41:24

package that like the Daily Double with

41:27

the merch the t-shirts the books he's

41:30

shopping a reality show as we speak

41:32

called the fixer when when when juries

41:35

are smart they get it it's a lot of

41:38

common sense a lot of common life

41:39

experience when they see a witness a

41:42

polluted Source like this that not only

41:45

is a liar but he has skin in the game

41:47

he's making money off uh the defendant

41:51

if the defendant's convicted he's likely

41:53

to make more money I just don't see how

41:55

they can uh give his testimony the Ring

41:58

of say it as The Ring Of Truth from a

42:01

defense perspective what did you think

42:03

they were trying to show with the

42:04

t-shirts and the monetizing just that

42:07

that you know you you want a witness to

42:09

say say it's a bank robbery uh yeah

42:12

there the guys that robbed the bank they

42:14

drove a graet in the weather was cloudy

42:17

I was 20 feet away and that's it you

42:20

don't want a guy who saying I hate him I

42:22

want him to go to jail and by the way

42:24

$27.99 you get to buy my Donald Trump

42:27

and jail t-shirt I mean the Optics are

42:29

horrific the prosecution did the best

42:32

job they could to try to get ahead of it

42:35

during the first day of Michael Cohen's

42:37

cross-examination the defense aimed to

42:39

make one thing very clear Michael Cohen

42:42

has been allegedly obsessed with Donald

42:45

Trump even since before he became

42:47

president here's defense attorney Todd

42:49

blanch you were actually obsessed with

42:50

President Trump weren't you Cohen I

42:53

don't know if I would characterize the

42:54

word obsessed I admired him tremendous

42:57

blanch in disloyal that would be Cohen's

43:00

first book you describe your feeling for

43:02

president Trump as being obsessed

43:04

correct Cohen correct blanch but your

43:08

obsession for you you admired him even

43:10

before you started working for him

43:12

correct Coen that's correct joining us

43:16

now are Lisa Rubin MSNBC legal

43:18

correspondent who was inside that

43:19

courthouse today and Charles Coleman

43:21

former New York prosecutor now a

43:23

criminal defense and civil rights

43:24

attorney thank you it's very good to

43:26

have some legal money mind's way in on

43:27

this and Lisa let me start with you the

43:29

idea that Michael Cohen was effectively

43:31

like a single white female like

43:33

character in Trump land is the point of

43:35

that from a defense point of view to

43:37

suggest that Cohen might have acted on

43:39

his own to make the Stormy Daniels

43:41

problem go away for Trump yes did they

43:44

do that

43:46

no I'm being cross-examined now see

43:49

answering the question squarely before

43:51

me no I don't think they did Alex I

43:53

think they're trying to both show he was

43:54

motivated to do it alone and he was so

43:57

obsessed with Trump that having been

43:58

spurned by him he is engaging in a

44:01

scorched Earth strategy to make the

44:03

man's life miserable in a way that's

44:05

undeserving of whatever Trump has done

44:08

that could be criminally charged and I

44:10

don't think they succeeded I I wrote

44:12

down after reading the cross-examination

44:14

all the different themes that they

44:16

floated today and not a single one of

44:18

them was a winner at least today on this

44:21

cross he's media hungry but he was

44:23

before too he's wealthy yes he was

44:27

before too he wouldn't take direction

44:29

from the da in terms of shutting up

44:31

about the case okay but does that make

44:33

him not credible he was a leaker they

44:36

insinuated that he was leaking

44:37

information to the press and they never

44:39

got anywhere with that so unless they

44:41

can establish that that actually

44:43

happened and that he was destructive to

44:45

the DA's case I'm not sure where that

44:47

goes he's an incentivized witness

44:49

because he dislikes Trump he's also a

44:51

person who was the only person who

44:52

served jail time for crimes related to

44:55

the ones that are being charged and he

44:57

was sent back to prison retributively

44:58

during covid after he was released on

45:00

home confinement if he has an axe to

45:02

grind it's a deserved one he has a

45:05

binder wo the DA's office gave him a

45:07

binder with his plea allocution in it

45:10

that's supposed to make him somehow

45:12

biased no that's to refresh his

45:13

recollection about things solely within

45:15

his knowledge and then the final one is

45:17

that he messed with his phones before he

45:20

gave them to the DA's office the

45:22

insinuation is the FBI returned them to

45:24

him in 2020 the DA's office didn't ask

45:26

for them until 2023 and the insinuation

45:29

is either Cohen or a man named Jeremy

45:31

Rosenberg who was an investigator in the

45:33

DA's office somehow messed with the

45:35

phones so as to edit that September 6th

45:39

2016 phone call through which Trump

45:42

makes the most damning admissions in the

45:44

case Charles I rest

45:47

so the defensive strategy here is that

45:50

they have no strategy and what I mean by

45:52

that is they do not have strong facts

45:56

this is clear we all knew this going in

45:58

and so in order to try and get to the

46:01

point of a hung jury or a mistrial your

46:03

strategy is confusion and misdirection

46:06

and that's everything that they've been

46:08

doing with respect to the different

46:09

legal theories that they have tried to

46:10

float now I have been one as an attorney

46:13

who is loathed to critique and criticize

46:16

other attorneys in terms of how they try

46:18

cases but we are at the point where I

46:21

can honestly say that Todd blanch may be

46:24

in over his head because this is state

46:27

court and I want to point that out he

46:29

has spent a lot of his career as a

46:31

federal prosecutor that is very

46:33

different than being a criminal defense

46:35

attorney in State Court primarily

46:38

because as a federal prosecutor you do

46:40

not try many cases you settle cases a

46:43

lot and in the cases that you actually

46:46

try many of the defendants do not

46:48

testify so quite frankly you are not as

46:51

used to cross-examination as you would

46:54

be if you were an attorney who practices

46:56

in State Court that's the value of what

46:58

we're talking about so I think that in

47:01

in terms of Donald Trump's Federal cases

47:02

he might be the guy but in this

47:04

situation right now I feel like necklace

47:06

would have been a much better choice to

47:09

conduct this cross-examination can I can

47:10

I ask just I mean I don't just want to

47:12

overdetermine this because I was I was I

47:13

watched this you know I was there in the

47:15

in the courthouse in the Overflow room

47:16

during cross I find myself having a hard

47:19

time following it but

47:20

also I'm a very I'm not the median juror

47:24

right so the one thing that was clear to

47:26

me and did seem a itive is Cohen seemed

47:29

Shifty I mean he did he seemed he was

47:31

taking sips of water he he basically

47:33

seemed like he was I I would I would

47:34

describing as squirly right that and you

47:37

know confronted with things that he had

47:39

in the past there were moments where you

47:42

felt like he was reluctantly maybe

47:44

getting to the truth but not

47:45

particularly like

47:47

forthcoming does that add up to them

47:49

eviscerating any of the corax no does it

47:52

to my mind defeat the the the burden or

47:55

or or get at the burden no

47:58

but I'm just curious what you thought as

47:59

someone who's also watching it like

48:01

whether that how much that matters

48:02

whether that's enough to get you where

48:03

you need to go I actually thought

48:05

Cohen's worst moment of the day was on

48:06

Direct but I don't know how many people

48:08

appreciated it at the Civil fraud trial

48:10

where Cohen testified he was asked about

48:12

the plea he took before judge Paulie in

48:14

the southern district and he has

48:15

insisted since then that actually while

48:17

he plad guilty to tax evasion he didn't

48:19

really commit the crime and he was asked

48:21

by Alena Hava basically were you lying

48:23

then or are you lying now and he said

48:25

squarely on the stand there I was lying

48:29

when asked to explain that testimony

48:31

today on the other hand Cohen gave him a

48:33

very different answer and he basically

48:36

said well I'm not contesting the facts

48:39

but I didn't like the process that's not

48:41

going to play well on cross with a well

48:43

prepped cross-examiner correct but Chris

48:45

to your point ultimately I think a lot

48:47

of that depends on the characterization

48:49

that the prosecution tries to put

48:51

forward about him on summation are you

48:53

going to try and sell Michael Cohen as

48:55

this sort of form guy who really stood

48:58

up for country and Liberty and freedom

49:00

and truth and Justice or are you going

49:02

to say look this was a guy who was in

49:04

caho with Donald Trump he's kind of a

49:06

you know a guy who may have been a

49:07

little bit of a schlep and and now he's

49:10

finally figured it out that this was not

49:13

to his benefit and he changed his tune

49:15

that's really where it all comes into

49:17

play I think that his where he he ended

49:20

on cross-exam on Direct he kind of had

49:23

this s sort of like you know strong

49:25

stance and I I think the defense make

49:27

him look Shifty may have S served to

49:29

undercut that we are covering the law

49:32

and the testimony and I can also tell

49:35

you from reporting inside the courtroom

49:37

today and Reporting at the courthouse

49:39

where you see some of what we were

49:40

discussing with our colleagues in that

49:42

building behind me in the surrounding

49:44

area there were not just lawyers jurors

49:46

and reporters like usual there were also

49:48

top Republican politicians even more

49:52

than on other days not just Trump's

49:54

defeated primary opponents now seeking a

49:57

job there's one but also the highest

49:59

ranking Republican in the federal

50:01

government Speaker of the House Mike

50:03

Johnson there in the

50:04

middle embracing criminal defendant

50:07

Trump in this unusual show of

50:10

partisanship in the middle of a felony

50:13

trial it's an Embrace that actually

50:16

Echoes the loyalist term witness Michael

50:18

Cohen himself and that was actually one

50:20

of the themes in today's testimony If

50:23

This Were A Movie and they brought in

50:24

all the other top famous National

50:26

Republicans to physically be at the

50:28

trial you'd say come on they don't all

50:29

Gather in the New York courtroom but

50:32

they did and they heard some of them who

50:34

were present for it Cohen saying he used

50:36

to lie for his then boss Trump because

50:38

he was kneed deep in the cult of trump

50:41

now Cohen says he's broken out

50:42

testifying about Trump's hush money

50:44

payments not the kind of thing most

50:47

candidates want their political peers to

50:49

revisit and here in person Cohen

50:53

confirming Trump directed the payments

50:55

which was a key moment in this

50:56

consequential

50:58

day it's round two in lower Manhattan

51:01

the prosecution star witness Michael

51:02

Cohen he's back on the stand he approved

51:05

it that's the potentially damning

51:06

testimony of Donald Trump's former fixer

51:09

Michael Cohen Cohen also described the

51:11

Fallout after the FBI raided his

51:13

properties back in 2018 Michael Cohen

51:16

has testified that he is a liar

51:18

admitting he lied to Congress to the

51:20

government to the public Cohen is facing

51:23

cross examination it is sometimes very

51:26

testy it's sometimes very flat you're

51:29

not hearing what you usually get from a

51:31

defense lawyer which is clear

51:34

telegraphed themes to a

51:37

jury now there was a key point that

51:40

actually hung over Trump's political

51:42

tourists if you want to call them that

51:44

today the Republicans and wouldbe

51:47

running mates auditioning at the New

51:49

York Criminal Court this week here it is

51:52

a strange place for vep Stakes but think

51:55

about it like this

51:57

they went and made this trip many of

52:00

them taking time away from their

52:02

government duties and other obligations

52:03

to come all the way to New York to do

52:05

this visit and photo op and then they

52:07

hear Cohen and these other Witnesses

52:09

living the other side of the thing these

52:11

people want which is to be tapped or

52:13

promoted by

52:15

Trump so they actually inadvertently

52:18

perhaps witnessed the fate of so many

52:21

AIDS and people who have broken with

52:23

Trump in and out of the courtroom and

52:26

and other observers and Chris Hayes our

52:28

colleague discussed this very reality in

52:30

contrast today you could end up a

52:33

witness you could end up a defendant

52:35

like Trump you could end up convicted as

52:37

some of these people are these are just

52:39

the lawyers let alone all the other

52:41

officials and so the people competing to

52:43

be his running mate appear to be in

52:45

denial about how that goes about how it

52:47

went for Mike Pence not only politically

52:49

ruined in the party because he was only

52:51

loyal through Jan 5th but then targeted

52:53

for assassination and hanging on Jan 6th

52:56

from mob in cited by Trump so the

52:58

courthouse vep Stakes includes people

53:00

who are saying oh they want that job

53:03

they want to be Pence or frankly Cohen

53:06

and there's Republicans like JD Vance

53:08

and Rick Scott there's other ambitious

53:10

figures conservative Congressman Byron

53:13

Donald's was seen there be I mentioned

53:14

speaker Johnson who is the party leader

53:18

or perhaps follower in this incarnation

53:20

of the Republican party and that's the

53:23

photo you

53:24

see these individuals

53:27

feeling like they had to do this pass

53:28

this litus test or they want to do it

53:31

because it's not enough to just defend

53:32

Trump in public and it's not enough to

53:34

say you believe he is innocent which of

53:36

course you're allowed to say but they

53:37

actually had to show up within the

53:41

criminal

53:42

trial and then they waited on the legal

53:44

process with their talking points

53:48

today I wanted to be here myself to call

53:52

out what is a travesty of Justice

53:55

where's the crime there is no crime this

53:57

is a sham this is not the United States

54:00

of America this is some Third Rate

54:01

Banana

54:02

Republic Banana Republic or bananas you

54:06

decide it's an especially Stark

54:07

departure for speaker Johnson you can

54:10

see him spot shadowed as he's nodding

54:12

along and doing his thing but the point

54:15

here isn't whether outside observers are

54:17

critical of Johnson meaning someone

54:20

else's view our job is to show you and

54:23

remind you of the facts we have

54:24

available and here is Johnson as

54:26

recently as 2015 which was just before

54:28

Trump had more power he then before all

54:32

these other things were exposed even

54:34

then had the view that Trump lacked the

54:37

character and moral Center needed for

54:40

the White House I'm afraid he would

54:41

break more things than he fixed as he's

54:44

a hotthead by nature and that's a

54:46

dangerous trait to having a commander

54:48

and chief so we know where Johnson was

54:51

at when he didn't have to say something

54:54

opposite for political or other

54:56

self-interested reasons the times

54:58

reports the Republicans also have told

55:00

on themselves how has Trump changed the

55:02

GOP his criminal trial guest list tells

55:04

the tale again this is not just normal

55:07

politics this is Extreme and you can see

55:10

the shift with your own

55:12

eyes remember the tape alone and not

55:16

everything else that's been alleged and

55:18

sometimes really documented in this

55:20

trial the tape alone back then had

55:24

Republicans saying that that was too

55:28

much house Speaker Paul Ryan released

55:31

this statement cancelling Trump's event

55:33

I am sickened by what I heard today

55:35

former Republican Presidential nominee

55:37

Senator John McCain pulled his

55:39

endorsements Mitch McConnell called

55:40

Trump's comments repugnant and

55:42

unacceptable Mitt Romney calling his

55:44

comments

55:47

vile that's what they said then that

55:49

tape and that conduct is at the heart of

55:52

this trial not because the tape itself

55:54

was illegal but because it was bad

55:55

enough politically that they went to

55:57

these extremes allegedly to do all these

55:59

other things to stop the political

56:01

bleeding and remember conservative media

56:04

was in a panic mode because this

56:05

obviously was going to allegedly hurt

56:07

Trump with voters but many were just

56:09

reeling And

56:10

discussing the facts in a way that well

56:13

they don't really do as often today if

56:15

it involves Donald Trump back then even

56:18

in places that you might have gotten

56:20

used to getting in trouble places that

56:21

have had to pay out for defamation and

56:24

lies even in some of those places people

56:27

on the right were not yet in the habit

56:31

of saying the sky is red if it helped

56:33

Donald Trump they said what they heard

56:35

was

56:37

bad the Trump campaign is in full damage

56:40

control mode following a troubling story

56:43

broken by The Washington Post today it's

56:45

the sheer entitlement that he ex

56:47

exhibits where he just feels like he's

56:49

entitled as a powerful person that

56:51

suggests that he uh feels that U you

56:55

know he is entitled to take what he

56:57

wants well I always love that apology if

56:59

I've offended anyone then I apologize

57:01

that's not an actual apology I think

57:04

that last night's apology was not uh

57:07

heartfelt I don't think that he really

57:09

meant it that is a contrast to what many

57:13

of the same Outlets same types of people

57:16

are saying amidst the

57:17

trial it's a big contrast and again it's

57:21

not to say everyone has to agree on

57:23

everything and it doesn't pertain to the

57:25

fact that legally he's Presumed Innocent

57:28

but a trial of this defendant who

57:31

insisted on running again and managed to

57:32

capture the nomination is now a kind of

57:36

a new low for some figures in the

57:39

Republican party not because others

57:42

disagree with them as I'm being careful

57:44

to emphasize but because it is again

57:46

putting a spotlight on the facts that

57:48

they knew better that they oppose this

57:51

and the only thing that's changed is a

57:52

crave and pursuit of power and a desire

57:55

to work for Donald Trump which if you

57:58

attend this trial is a thing you might

58:00

question whether that's even in your

58:03

self-interest

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Tags associés
Trump TrialMichael CohenLegal TestimonyPolitical ScandalAlleged CrimesHush MoneyRepublican SupportCult of TrumpLegal DefenseCross Examination
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