Bill Schnee: Engineering Steely Dan's Aja

Rick Beato 2
19 Mar 202498:46

Summary

TLDRIn this engaging interview, sound engineer Bill Schne shares his experiences working with music legends such as Ringo Starr and the band Steely Dan. He discusses the evolution of recording studios, the art of capturing perfect sounds, and his philosophy on using minimal equipment for maximum results. Schne's anecdotes offer a behind-the-scenes look at the creation of some of the most iconic music of our time.

Takeaways

  • 🎶 Bill Schnee, a renowned figure in the music industry, shares his experiences working with significant artists including Ringo Starr and Steely Dan in his book 'Chairman at the Board'.
  • 🎤 Schnee's career began in high school when he moved to Los Angeles and started playing keyboard in a band, leading to his first recording studio experience at Capitol Records in 1964.
  • 🎧 The evolution of recording studios, such as Capitol Records, is discussed, highlighting the changes in equipment and room acoustics over the years.
  • 🎷 Bill Schnee's 'Aha moment' in his career was when he realized the emotional impact of recording techniques while working with Richie Poler, which set the course for his future in the industry.
  • 🎹 Schnee's approach to recording drums, known as the 'Bill Schnee drum sound', involved miking all drums and focusing on capturing a full, impactful sound without excessive EQ.
  • 🎶 The Phil Spector 'wall of sound' technique is explained, characterized by large rhythm sections and a full, immersive sound in the 60s.
  • 🎵 Schnee's work with Ringo Starr's album 'Photograph' is highlighted, where he utilized the talents of George Harrison and Richard Perry to enhance the recording.
  • 🎶 The importance of headphone mixes for musicians was emphasized by Schnee, sharing his early struggles and the lessons he learned that influenced his later engineering practices.
  • 🎤 The transition from four-track to eight-track recording was a significant shift, changing how drums and other instruments were recorded and mixed.
  • 🎚️ The use of compression in recording, especially on drums, evolved over time and became a defining characteristic of different music eras and styles.

Q & A

  • What was Bill Schnee's first experience in a recording studio like?

    -Bill Schnee's first experience in a recording studio was when he was around 16 or 17 years old. He was scared and had difficulty singing with headphones, which was a new experience for him. This led to his realization about the importance of headphone mix and balance for musicians.

  • How did Bill Schnee get his start in the audio industry?

    -Bill Schnee got his start in the audio industry after his family moved to Los Angeles for his senior year of high school. He joined a band and they recorded a demo at a small studio. A parent of one of the band members knew someone in the music business, Gary Usher, who liked their demo and got them a production deal with Decca Records.

  • What was the significance of Richie Poler in Bill Schnee's career?

    -Richie Poler was a significant figure in Bill Schnee's career as he was the one who recognized Schnee's potential and gave him the opportunity to work in his studio. Poler's studio was known for being one of the hottest rock studios in Los Angeles, and Schnee's work there marked a major step in his career as a recording engineer.

  • What was the 'Aha moment' for Bill Schnee in his career?

    -Bill Schnee's 'Aha moment' was when he was working with Richie Poler and heard a playback of a recording that had an extra quality to it. He realized that it was something special that Poler was doing in the recording process, which inspired him to ask Poler to teach him how to do it. This moment set the course for the rest of his life in the audio industry.

  • How did the transition from four-track to eight-track recording change the process?

    -The transition from four-track to eight-track recording was a significant change as it allowed for more separation and complexity in the recording process. It meant that each instrument or group of instruments could be recorded on separate tracks, allowing for greater control and flexibility during mixing. This change required a new way of thinking about arrangement and overdubbing.

  • What was the typical setup for recording drums in the 1960s?

    -In the 1960s, the typical setup for recording drums would include an overhead microphone, a snare microphone, a kick drum microphone, and sometimes additional mics for toms, depending on the desired sound. The setup was often focused on capturing a mono sound rather than a stereo image, with the aim of achieving a good balance across all the drums.

  • How did Bill Schnee approach the use of compression in his work?

    -Bill Schnee approached the use of compression with a minimalistic philosophy. He believed in using compression minimally for leveling purposes rather than for shaping the sound significantly. This approach was influenced by his early experiences and his preference for capturing the natural sound of the instruments.

  • What was the significance of the Phil Spector 'wall of sound' in the recording of 'Photograph'?

    -The Phil Spector 'wall of sound' was significant in the recording of 'Photograph' as it involved creating a dense, immersive sound by using multiple instruments and voices to create a rich sonic texture. This approach was adapted for the song to give it a fuller, more dynamic sound compared to the original, more mournful version.

  • What was the role of isolation booths in the recording process?

    -Isolation booths played a crucial role in the recording process by allowing for the separation of individual instruments and voices. This separation helped to prevent sound leakage between different microphones and instruments, enabling a cleaner, more controlled mix.

  • How did the introduction of multi-track recording change the dynamics of recording sessions?

    -The introduction of multi-track recording changed the dynamics of recording sessions by allowing for greater control and flexibility. It enabled musicians to record their parts separately, which could then be mixed together to create a final track. This approach reduced the need for everyone to play together at the same time and allowed for more intricate arrangements and overdubbing.

Outlines

00:00

🎤 Introduction and Background

The paragraph introduces Bill Schnee, a guest on the show, who is a renowned figure in the music industry with a book titled 'Chairman at the Board'. The host expresses admiration for Bill's work and mentions an interesting pattern of interviewing individuals associated with the song 'Asia'. Bill's journey in the music industry began in Los Angeles during his senior year of high school, where he joined a band and later got involved in recording sessions. His first experience in a recording studio was at Capitol Records in 1964, which marked the beginning of his illustrious career.

05:01

🎧 Evolution of Recording Studios

Bill Schnee discusses the evolution of recording studios over the years, particularly Capitol Records, which underwent significant changes from the late 80s to the 90s. He talks about the technical advancements and the impact on the sound quality. Bill shares his experiences working in different studios, including his time at Richie Poler's studio, where he learned valuable lessons about recording and production. He also touches on the importance of headphone mixes for musicians during recording sessions.

10:02

🎼 Aha Moment and Studio Experiences

Bill shares his 'Aha' moment in the recording studio, which was a pivotal point in his career. He describes the experience of working with Richie Poler and how it shaped his understanding of recording techniques. Bill also talks about his move to Hollywood and his early days of working in a small studio, which eventually led to him engineering in some of the best studios in Los Angeles.

15:03

🎹 Learning the Craft and Studio Stories

In this paragraph, Bill delves into his experiences learning the craft of recording and mixing. He talks about the importance of experience and learning from the masters. Bill shares anecdotes about working with different artists and producers, including his time at Sunset Sound and his work with Ringo Starr on his 1973 album. He also discusses the influence of Phil Spector's 'wall of sound' and how it was adapted for the song 'Photograph'.

20:06

🎤 Drum Sound and Recording Techniques

Bill Schnee talks about his approach to recording drums, which became known as the 'Bill Schnee drum sound'. He discusses the evolution of his technique, influenced by British records and his desire for a more full-range sound. Bill shares his experiences with different microphones and the challenges of capturing the right drum sound. He also talks about his work with Steely Dan, including the unique approach to recording and the band's professional approach to making music.

25:08

🎧 Studio Design and Sound Quality

Bill discusses the importance of studio design and sound quality in recording. He talks about his dissatisfaction with the SSL consoles and the impact of automation systems on the mixing process. Bill shares his philosophy on obtaining the purest sound and his preference for simple, well-implemented audio equipment. He also mentions his experiences with different types of microphones and preamps, emphasizing the importance of getting a colorless sound that can be shaped later in the mix.

30:15

🎼 Reflections on a Legendary Career

In the final paragraph, Bill reflects on his legendary career in the music industry. He talks about the unique qualities of Steely Dan's music and the band's songwriting style. Bill also discusses the evolution of recording techniques, the importance of great musicianship, and the shift in the role of musicians from the 60s to the 80s. He shares his thoughts on the best microphones and equipment for recording, emphasizing his preference for tube equipment and the pursuit of a pure, uncolored sound.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Audio Engineering

Audio engineering refers to the creative and technical process of recording, mixing, and producing sound, especially in music and live performances. In the video, the guest Bill Schnee shares his experiences and insights into the audio engineering field, discussing various aspects such as recording techniques, equipment, and his work with notable musicians and bands like Steely Dan and Ringo Starr.

💡Recording Studios

Recording studios are specialized facilities designed for recording, mixing, and mastering audio content, typically for music production. In the context of the video, Bill Schnee discusses his experiences working in various recording studios, including Capitol Records and his own studio, highlighting the evolution of studio design and technology over the years.

💡Music Production

Music production encompasses the entire process of creating and arranging music, including composing, recording, mixing, and mastering. In the video, Bill Schnee's book 'Chairman at the Board' likely covers his extensive career in music production, sharing stories of working with famous artists and the technical aspects of producing hit records.

💡Drums

Drums are a percussion instrument that provides rhythm and timekeeping in music. In the video, the discussion of drum recording, especially Steve Gadd's performance on 'Asia,' highlights the importance of drums in music production and the technical aspects of capturing their sound in a recording studio.

💡Microphones

Microphones are devices used to convert sound into an electrical signal for recording or amplification. In the video, Schnee discusses various microphone types and their applications in recording studios, emphasizing the importance of selecting the right microphone for different instruments and voices.

💡Mixing

Mixing is the process of combining multiple audio tracks into a final mono, stereo, or surround sound product. In the video, Bill Schnee's expertise in mixing is evident as he shares stories of his work on various albums and the technical and creative decisions involved in achieving a balanced and polished sound.

💡Headphones

Headphones are personal audio devices that allow individuals to listen to music or other audio content privately. In the context of the video, headphones play a crucial role in recording studios for monitoring sound, as Schnee discusses the challenges he faced with headphone mixes early in his career and their importance in achieving a balanced recording.

💡SSL Consoles

SSL consoles are a series of mixing consoles produced by Solid State Logic, widely used in professional recording studios for their high-quality sound and advanced features. In the video, Bill Schnee expresses his initial dislike for SSL consoles, particularly their automation system, before adapting to them as technology evolved.

💡Studio Design

Studio design refers to the architectural and acoustic planning of recording studios to achieve optimal sound quality. In the video, Bill Schnee's emphasis on the importance of room sound and his deliberate choice to build a studio with a great room sound illustrates the critical role of studio design in audio recording.

💡Musical Arrangements

Musical arrangements involve the organization and structure of musical elements, such as melody, harmony, and rhythm, to create a cohesive piece of music. In the video, Bill Schnee mentions the detailed charts for songs like 'Asia,' highlighting the importance of arrangements in achieving a complex and polished musical performance.

💡Record Deals

A record deal is a contract between a recording artist and a record label, which typically involves the production, distribution, and promotion of music recordings. In the video, Bill Schnee's account of signing a record deal with Decca Records through Gary Usher illustrates the process of breaking into the music industry and the role of record deals in an artist's career.

Highlights

Bill Schnee's experience in the recording studio began in 1964 with his first band, where he played keyboard and contributed to songwriting.

Schnee's first encounter with professional recording was at Capitol Records, where he faced challenges adjusting to using headphones for the first time.

Schnee shares his 'aha moment' in the studio, realizing the impact of recording techniques and arrangements after hearing his band's playback for the first time.

Schnee discusses the evolution of recording studios, such as Capitol Records, which underwent significant changes in the late 80s and early 90s, including rebuilding their main studio room.

The importance of headphone mixes in recording is emphasized by Schnee, who shares his early struggles and the lessons he learned that influenced his later work with other engineers.

Schnee's career took a pivotal turn when he began working at a small studio in Hollywood, learning from other engineers and eventually moving to a larger, more renowned studio.

Schnee's work with Richie Poler's studio led to his first experience recording major artists like Three Dog Night, which was a significant step in his engineering career.

The transition from four-track recording to eight-track recording is discussed, highlighting the changes in how music was produced and the new challenges it presented.

Schnee reflects on the influence of Phil Spector's 'wall of sound' and how it inspired the production techniques used on Ringo Starr's hit record, which Schnee worked on.

The importance of experience in understanding how much high-end is needed during the recording process is emphasized, as there is no way to undo changes like in modern digital recording.

Schnee shares his admiration for the Beatles and their innovative use of compression, especially in songs like 'Tomorrow Never Knows'.

The transition from SSL consoles to modern mixing platforms like Pro Tools is discussed, with Schnee sharing his initial reluctance and eventual adaptation to new technology.

Schnee's approach to recording drums, including his unique 'Bill Schnee drum sound,' is discussed, highlighting his preference for miking all drums and avoiding excessive EQ.

The impact of multi-track recording on the music industry and the shift from capturing ensemble performances to focusing on individual instrument isolation is discussed.

Schnee shares his experiences working with Steely Dan, emphasizing the professional and efficient nature of their recording sessions.

The story behind the recording of the hit song 'You Make Me Feel Like Dancing' by Leo Sayer, which was recorded on the same day as an Asia session, is shared by Schnee.

Transcripts

00:00

hey everybody my guest today is Bill

00:02

schne now normally I do an intro about

00:06

them but I'm actually going to talk to

00:08

Bill he has a book called chairman at

00:11

the board that's right here and I'm a

00:15

huge fan of his and I kind of had this

00:17

recurring thing where anyone that was

00:19

associated with the song Asia now he

00:22

worked on the entire Cel danan Asia

00:24

record but anybody that played on the on

00:28

Asia I have to or that was in the studio

00:31

at the time I have to interview and so

00:33

this is going to be a part of this but

00:36

I'm going to ask Bill questions about

00:39

this but his book he talks about this

00:41

and many of the other recording sessions

00:44

that he's been on including this Ringo

00:46

Star record that's has all Ringo's

00:49

biggest hits on it and is a record that

00:52

I go back and listen to all the time

00:54

Bill welcome first of all great to be

00:56

here with you let's start with some

00:58

specific things okay let's talk about

01:00

your background you have your book out

01:03

where you talk about these things but

01:04

you're 70 six almost seven you're born

01:07

in 47 right correct so when did you

01:10

first get interested in the audio part

01:13

of music and the when's the first time

01:15

you walked into a recording studio let's

01:17

start there okay my parents moved to Los

01:20

Angeles for my senior year of high

01:22

school and I met some guys that were

01:24

starting a band and keyboard was my main

01:27

instrument and I I I said what if what

01:31

do you think about an organ in there and

01:32

they said sure let's try it so we did it

01:35

and uh in instead of buying the Vox

01:38

Continental back in 1964 which would

01:41

have made more sense uh my mom had the

01:44

the Hammond M self-contained which she

01:48

allowed me to cut saw it off so that I

01:50

could take the top and put it in my

01:51

dad's trunks instead of buying a B3 and

01:54

having to have a van we started writing

01:55

songs that we thought were pretty good

01:57

we went to a little demo Studio little

02:00

cheap Studio out where we lived and put

02:02

a several down and uh one of the parents

02:05

of of the band knew someone who knew

02:07

someone that was in the music business

02:10

and we uh sent the tape off to that

02:13

person that person was Gary Usher who

02:15

was good friends uh lived near the beach

02:17

boy Wilson family and actually wanted to

02:19

be a beach boy um and even though he

02:24

didn't make it he did write two of

02:26

Brian's big hits in my room in

02:28

409 and um

02:30

he thought we were pretty good so he uh

02:32

he just made a deal for with Deca

02:34

records a production deal and he signed

02:37

us to a contract so the F the first time

02:41

I went in a real Studio would be then

02:43

Capital Records in uh late

02:46

1964 okay so Capital Records in

02:49

1964 how did it change really over the

02:52

years is there some of the same gear

02:54

everything changed they they rebuilt I

02:56

can't remember when late late 80s I

02:58

think around '90s they redid their their

03:01

big room their Studio A was a gorgeous

03:04

sounding room uh but it had a control

03:07

room you know that could not handle even

03:09

a multirack tape recorder it was so

03:11

small so they rebuilt everything there

03:14

and redid the room didn't necessarily

03:16

make it better sounding but it made it

03:17

more versatile whatever and they also

03:20

broke the wall between uh the two

03:22

Studios with uh and they did that really

03:25

right so you you had complete isolation

03:28

from the two Studios if you needed it or

03:30

you could open it up which I had done

03:32

many times and put like strings and

03:34

flutes in B and the Rhythm Section with

03:36

horns in a anyway uh Studio B they

03:39

didn't change as much it has a littleit

03:42

but they're they're both basically quite

03:44

different than they were then I recorded

03:46

in studio a one time probably 2005 and

03:50

with an orchestra I don't have any

03:52

pictures from it I remember that the

03:53

control room I may be totally off it was

03:56

kind of an odd shape yeah the new

03:58

control room is little bit odd sh kind

04:00

of an odd shape right but the tracking

04:02

room is beautiful there that's the first

04:05

time you went in what did you think when

04:06

you go into a recording studio the first

04:08

time well I'm 16 years old so I'm or 17

04:11

by then I guess I'm I'm scared to death

04:13

that's what I thought I'm petrified you

04:16

know and and my first experience you

04:20

know with headphones and you know

04:22

because you know a band we all played

04:25

heard each other acoustically now we

04:26

have these headphones and uh for vocals

04:30

they set us up so that we did play

04:31

acoustically and he each other but I I

04:33

could not sing with those headphones I

04:35

mean it was a nightmare so that later in

04:37

life when I started uh when I had my own

04:40

studio and I'm training second Engineers

04:43

uh they they were they were told very

04:46

much so about watching that uh headphone

04:49

mix and explain to them because you know

04:51

you can't play what you can't hear you

04:52

know you have to hear the other

04:54

musicians and it has to be a good

04:55

balance and on and on and on I I want to

04:58

come back eventually to headphone mixes

05:00

because this is I've never actually

05:02

talked about that with any of the

05:04

engineers that I've ever interviewed but

05:06

it's incredibly important thing go but

05:09

what kind of headphones would they use

05:11

back then I don't I couldn't tell you

05:13

okay but they there were nothing even

05:15

even for the time you know Studio

05:17

headphones have always been uh a they're

05:20

not like the best headphones you can buy

05:23

because they can't take the kind of

05:24

level or whatever that you know is

05:26

required for the musicians so but I

05:29

don't remember anything about them just

05:30

remember hating them uh but that was but

05:34

that was the the first time uh that I

05:36

was in a studio and Gary Usher brought

05:39

in a guitar player to augment the band

05:41

our our guitar player was not maybe the

05:43

greatest and he he had figured that out

05:46

so he brought in this guy Richie poder

05:48

you know who that is ah

05:50

Richie Richie was a phenomenal musician

05:54

uh he just passed away last year he was

05:56

a phenomenal musician turns out he was

05:57

also as I later learned a phenomenal

05:59

engineer and producer and so when when

06:04

when we got dropped because we didn't

06:06

have a hit um we uh I went over to his

06:10

studio and told him the sad story and he

06:12

said oh you guys were great I can get

06:14

you a record deal go see this guy Mike

06:16

cerb he's going to go places and he had

06:18

been working with Mike cerb on these

06:19

Beach Blanket Bingo movies these that

06:22

were going on so I went to Mike Curb and

06:25

he signed us to another singles deal and

06:29

uh we went into Richie's studio and his

06:32

Studio was kind of funky compared to

06:34

Capital way also uh we did I did one or

06:37

I'm a huge I was and still am a huge

06:39

beach boy fan and um we when we got done

06:44

there was one song that needed an organ

06:46

solo and he Gary took us to Western

06:50

Studio 3 which is where Brian lived and

06:52

did and talk several times in my my life

06:56

my career where I've been nervous as

06:57

hell here I'm in that Studio on the

07:00

organ that had been used on some of

07:02

their records and I'm freaking out but

07:04

but anyway going from Western and

07:06

capital to the best Studios both then

07:08

and now if Capital were

07:11

reopen um you know it's closed right now

07:14

yeah yeah yeah yeah so um I but we went

07:17

into poder studio and he spent he spent

07:21

a lot more time on the arrangement with

07:22

us than Gary Usher had done but when he

07:25

got it where he thought it was good he

07:26

had us put down a take and I came into

07:28

the control room room and I remember

07:30

this like it was yesterday uh and he hit

07:34

play and I looked up at the 604s and

07:37

utility cabinets as the sound was coming

07:40

out and I felt something emotionally

07:43

that I had never felt in those other

07:44

Studios there was something extra to the

07:47

band and I knew it had to be what he was

07:49

doing in the recording so that's what

07:52

I've called my aha moment so much so

07:54

that when it was done I turned to him

07:56

and pointed at all the equipment and

07:58

said can you teach me how to do this and

07:59

he said no I'm teaching this guy Cooper

08:01

go on out and do another take but that

08:03

was the moment when the basically set

08:06

the rest of my life In Motion how did

08:08

you get into working at Studios then

08:11

well my parents lived outside of Los

08:14

Angeles and uh funny enough uh a studio

08:17

opened up in the town where we lived it

08:21

wasn't much of a studio it was it was

08:23

just a two track machine egg cartons on

08:26

the wall uh he had two ensor mics okay

08:31

uh and uh I you know like a lot of

08:34

people uh maybe before me but certainly

08:37

after me uh if you let me uh clean the

08:40

bathrooms and whatever you need done if

08:42

you'll teach me how to do this the

08:45

fortunate part is it was only stereo so

08:48

everything we did was live you had to

08:50

mix it live unfortunately W very many

08:54

none very many good artists you know and

08:57

musicians but uh it got me into doing it

09:01

doing it live and um within six months

09:06

the owner had me doing all the sessions

09:08

because I was better than he was which

09:10

might not be saying much but and then uh

09:13

about 6 months eight months after that

09:15

he comes in one day and says we're

09:17

moving to Hollywood and I said what are

09:19

you talking about he said I found an

09:21

empty studio for rent and we're moving

09:23

to Hollywood I said I'm not ready to go

09:24

to Hollywood Oh no you're ready you're

09:26

ready and to show you what this guy was

09:29

like um on the console he had gotten

09:33

those old engraved plaques you know

09:35

several layers where they cut through

09:36

the first layer and it was he had me

09:38

join AES and he put Bill schne AES in on

09:42

the producers thing to and so we're

09:45

moving to Hollywood and I had to move

09:46

the I I scraped that off and threw it

09:48

away before we before we got to

09:50

Hollywood but we moved everything to

09:52

Hollywood

09:53

and um and it was there that uh Richie

09:58

polers had an engineer that worked for

10:00

him uh and I would go visit Richie

10:02

wouldn't let me come and visit sessions

10:04

uh but that he was doing which at the

10:06

time were Stephen wolf and three dog

10:08

knight uh engineering those he would go

10:10

on to produce them the Lion Share of uh

10:14

both of their careers along with a lot

10:15

of other great Rock Records um but his

10:19

other engineer in the studio came over

10:22

and uh started listening to what I was

10:24

doing he said you know you're really

10:25

good and I yeah I know I didn't believe

10:29

it for a second about a year and a half

10:31

later he decided to quit the business

10:33

this guy and uh I I said do you think

10:36

Richie would hire me and he said well I

10:38

don't know but he should and so he told

10:40

Richie about me and I started begging

10:42

and here and what's amazing is by then

10:45

he had the hottest Rock Studio

10:47

independent studio in Los Angeles and uh

10:50

it was less than three years from when I

10:52

was in there for that first playback

10:53

where I literally didn't know the

10:55

difference between an equalizer and a

10:57

limiter and now I'm asking to engineer

10:59

his studio and uh after two months of

11:03

begging he finally let me try a demo

11:05

session and it worked and so I said see

11:10

I know I can do this and he said oh here

11:12

here's another demo session okay I did

11:14

it they liked me and then okay what now

11:17

and he said well come on tomorrow night

11:18

and record Three Dog

11:20

Night okay and this is excuse me what

11:24

you'd call being thrown in the deep end

11:25

of the pool and uh so there another time

11:30

when I was petrified but boy the

11:32

producer at the time uh was nice to me

11:35

and the band was nice to me and I cut a

11:37

track and it went well and next day

11:39

Richie said what do I do now Richie said

11:42

come on and third night another one and

11:46

uh uh on that third night I got in

11:49

trouble uh Richie is as I mentioned a

11:51

phenomenal guitar player and the guitar

11:53

player wanted an effect that I had no

11:56

idea how to get and so I had to call

11:58

Richie and he and bill came down and

12:00

took over and that was the end of my

12:02

tracking I did more overdubs and I hung

12:04

out as much as I could what was the

12:06

effect bill I don't

12:08

remember I don't remember and I don't

12:11

maybe he was making it up yeah it was

12:13

almost for sure I'm sure but you know

12:15

like I said Richie would know I mean he

12:17

hit this was their second album they

12:19

already had a hit and they were on their

12:20

way to being one of the biggest bands in

12:22

the 70 early 70s and uh and he had you

12:26

know he had engineered the the first Al

12:29

and I asked him you know I asked him

12:31

years later because that was my

12:34

springboard and I asked him years later

12:36

why in the world would you turn over

12:38

your biggest client Gabriel meckler who

12:41

was producing Stephan wilfin Three Dog

12:42

Night to a snot-nose kid if I had fallen

12:45

on my face he could have really gotten

12:47

pissed off that you wasted an evening

12:49

with and and let let alone after I did

12:52

the first night and the second night

12:53

you're letting me go on you know it it

12:56

doesn't make any sense and he he didn't

12:58

have any answer

12:59

10 years later about 20 years after that

13:02

I asked him again come on you got to

13:04

have some way up and he said the only

13:06

thing I can think of is I wanted the

13:07

band to see how important I was to you

13:10

know that I was really behind the the

13:12

records which he was and uh which still

13:15

doesn't explain why he let me continue

13:17

to record but since I fell on my face he

13:20

got back in the chair and took over and

13:22

all is well that ends so what kind of

13:24

consoles did they have like at this

13:27

studio for example you know if in the '

13:29

60s the uh everybody built their own

13:32

consoles there were no console

13:33

manufacturers per se so you know Capital

13:37

built their RCA built their so on and so

13:39

forth uh Richie Richie Studio had a

13:42

homemade console uh it was transistor it

13:45

was one of the early transistor consoles

13:48

and uh and it definitely for the time

13:51

especially you know it had a sound okay

13:54

and it would be how many Channel console

13:56

would it be I think i' I have a picture

13:58

of it I think it was 12 inputs okay 12

14:01

rotary pots and you'd be recording on a

14:03

four track four track at the time it

14:05

started for track when you're recording

14:07

on a four track are you doing bounces at

14:11

this point yeah when would you do your

14:13

first bounce you do the basic tracks and

14:15

then what you do you start doing bounces

14:17

right after that not always right after

14:19

it typically the Rhythm Section would be

14:23

one track right away okay and then you

14:26

might start doing some kind of uh

14:28

instrumental overdubs on another track

14:31

and maybe even and and for sure a vocal

14:33

to to get even a rough one whatnot and

14:36

then depending on how much you needed

14:37

that's when the bounces would start when

14:39

you start bouncing stuff like that

14:41

working in these early like four tracks

14:44

how do you know how much high-end

14:46

something's going to need after the

14:48

third bounce or whatever do you have to

14:50

actually crank up the high-end on

14:53

something would you add high-end to

14:54

things or these are really you would

14:56

right how would you know how much to do

14:58

when cuz you're basically premixing and

15:00

you're you can't really get back it's

15:02

not like undo with pro tools or anything

15:05

you put a phrase in there the answer is

15:08

experience so when you're a beginning

15:10

engineer you don't know you're going to

15:12

learn by doing yeah yeah that's exactly

15:15

what I had to do and see the the great

15:17

thing for me was I I've been playing

15:20

music One Way or Another since grade

15:22

school and but all my aptitude was in

15:24

math and science so much so that when I

15:28

uh when I started

15:29

College I I only I started college in

15:32

Aerospace that's what I thought I would

15:34

do uh we got signed right away so uh I

15:37

after the first semester I quit school

15:40

uh my dad was a Jewish doctor you know

15:42

what that means no dad I don't want to

15:44

be a doctor but then a

15:47

lawyer uh later I in fact would start

15:50

start law school just to shut him up but

15:53

but I quit I quit and chased the band

15:55

for two and a half years uh so uh but

15:59

music went out today

16:01

whatever I'd like to take a second to

16:03

talk to you about this channel this is

16:05

actually Rick Bato 2 I've had it since

16:08

the beginning of my main Channel and

16:09

many of you are not subscribed as a

16:11

matter of fact 87% of the people that

16:14

watch this channel regularly are not

16:16

subscribed so I encourage you to hit the

16:18

Subscribe button on this channel and on

16:20

my main Channel this will help me get

16:22

even more of my dream guests and help

16:24

continue to grow both channels thank you

16:27

when you're recording and mix ing on a

16:29

four track you get the four tracks done

16:33

and then are you is there really a mix

16:36

are you kind of pushing faders a little

16:38

bit oh yeah you only have four tracks oh

16:40

yeah you know I was fortunate to be able

16:42

to watch a master which is you know what

16:44

was so great about the way the record

16:45

business was where you know for for for

16:49

a long time where you you'd get into a

16:51

studio as a t- boy or whatever you'd be

16:54

able to get over to uh uh talk your way

16:57

learn enough about what the equipment

16:59

does and everything at night you know be

17:01

beg the engineers to stay after and all

17:03

this stuff till you finally knew enough

17:05

to be able to be a second and run the

17:06

tape machine and help them stuff like

17:08

that and then you're able to watch a

17:09

bunch of Masters working see how they do

17:11

it so that when you get a chance after

17:13

hours or whatever to take someone in

17:15

that you can try and see what works for

17:17

you and I was very fortunate I only had

17:19

one of those but it was Richie Poler who

17:22

uh was phenomenal and uh so I was able

17:25

to to watch a lot of things and with

17:27

regard to your actual question yes there

17:30

were only four four things to turn but I

17:33

watched how he added Dynamics and and

17:36

helped things in that way and I caught

17:38

on to that early on and have carried

17:40

that through my whole career and you

17:41

guys would mix to a half inch or quarter

17:44

inch quarter inch back then in his place

17:47

yeah what would be the tape speed at

17:49

that time 15 on both right y so this

17:52

would be what year roughly uh

17:55

6768 in the United States from what I

17:58

understand there were multi-track

18:00

recorders eight track recorders 16 track

18:02

recorders H were were available before

18:06

they were in the UK is that true because

18:08

the Beatles did almost everything on for

18:11

track I think they Abby Road on eight

18:13

track well actually two for tracks but

18:15

yes um I don't know you know when's the

18:18

first time you saw an eight track or a

18:20

16 track when well Richie got an eight

18:22

track in about 68 I think okay' 69 we

18:26

were eight track by the time I'm working

18:28

there we're definitely eight track now

18:30

when you go from four to eight tracks

18:32

it's a big change yeah sure so how do

18:34

you start dividing things up are you

18:36

recording drums in two tracks one one

18:39

track back then one he was he was all

18:42

about back then especially he was all

18:44

about Mono the mono mix okay because and

18:47

his thing was it has to sound good on

18:49

the radio if it doesn't sound good on

18:51

the radio no one's going to buy it so it

18:52

doesn't matter what it sounds like in

18:54

speakers just make it sound good on the

18:55

radio and there's some innate way that

18:58

he saw that I watched him doing that I

19:00

picked up on and I said for years that I

19:03

thought my records sound better on the

19:04

radio than they do even when we went to

19:06

FM and they're in Stereo I thought they

19:07

sounded better on on on the air than

19:10

they did on speakers um but yeah it was

19:12

a big big change and so because he was

19:15

Mr mono and again I'm still watching him

19:18

like a hawk doing everything he does he

19:19

had the drums on a track and the bass on

19:21

a track and uh and then almost always

19:25

the Rhythm Section and then start doing

19:27

the overdubs in if you still had to do

19:29

some ping ponging you find what you'd

19:31

lose the least by taking it a generation

19:34

down and do that till you got it and

19:36

funny enough I remember the first time I

19:38

had a client there that asked that

19:40

wanted the drums in Stereo and Richie

19:43

had never done that and so you know I I

19:46

just uh okay so I did what I thought

19:49

would work in stereo and Richie came in

19:52

after the session walked into the

19:53

control room and heard the sound and

19:55

almost fainted he what in the world is

19:57

that I said it I put the he wanted the

20:00

drums in Stereo and he was listening

20:02

goes I don't know if I like

20:05

that and uh what he didn't like is the

20:08

very thing that stereo gives you which

20:10

is space right yeah whether it's the use

20:12

or the misuse I'll for the purposes of

20:15

this of Atmos a lot of a lot of people

20:18

that I really respect don't like it

20:20

because it's there's the power that you

20:23

get from stereo speakers that power is

20:26

gone you know you have more space than

20:28

you ever dreamt of and and that's great

20:30

if for that and I do love multi- Channel

20:32

immersive it's not but anyway that's

20:35

what was bugging him was that the drums

20:37

had normally been all the kick and the

20:38

snare and everything has been right

20:40

there always on the left speaker in his

20:42

studio and now all of a sudden it was

20:44

spread and uh he couldn't deal with it

20:47

what kind of compressors would you use

20:48

how would you get the drums balanced is

20:50

that why people used compression on

20:52

drums things like that he never used

20:54

compression on drums so I didn't for a

20:56

long long time myself okay his drum

20:59

setup at the time was uh an

21:03

overhead a snare a kick and it's

21:08

somewhat similar to Glen John's but it

21:10

was really more for the Tom he it was

21:13

really just for the Tom Glenn did it the

21:15

similar way his his second mic is up

21:18

higher and that's for stereo but Richie

21:21

was doing it because he wanted a mono

21:23

thing a mono picture and and if you like

21:27

he taught me in the beginning he saidou

21:29

know if you got a guy like Hal Blaine

21:31

and you're not getting enough Tom just

21:32

tell him Hal the next take will you lay

21:34

into the floor tom a little and then it

21:36

would be fine you didn't need that mic

21:38

but with a a rock band something like

21:41

that you know they're they're not quite

21:43

as eloquent on the kit so then you might

21:45

want to have that to balance the toms so

21:48

the session guys would know the producer

21:51

would say or they would even listen to a

21:53

playback and say I need to hit the hit

21:54

the Tom harder and they would just self

21:56

miix essentially and this is why they

21:58

were great session players on top of

22:01

coming up with unique parts and playing

22:03

with great time absolutely is that they

22:05

knew how to balance the drum kit or

22:07

whatever instrument they were playing

22:08

but especially the drum kit right so

22:10

when did people start using compressors

22:13

on drums I know the Beatles obviously

22:14

did early on that was a thing that was

22:17

part of the sound you saw a lot of that

22:18

in the uh in the English movement of the

22:20

60s yep yeah you a lot more than I ever

22:24

heard in America did people talk about

22:26

that did did you notice the the energy

22:29

in the Beatles if you listen to Tomorrow

22:31

Never Knows or records like that that

22:33

there's an energy created because of the

22:36

compression Fair Childs and things like

22:37

that did Studios have fairchilds or

22:39

anything like that or no no mastering

22:41

Studios some mastering Studios had them

22:44

but recording studios didn't I think

22:46

Richie only Richie had uh two la2a or

22:50

three la2a and when the 1176 came out

22:53

then a couple of those and that was you

22:55

know in 77172 that was very common

22:58

that's what okay and what would you use

23:00

those for tracking vocals voal Bas

23:03

acoustic guitar acoustic guitar

23:04

sometimes yeah how much compression

23:06

would you use if you were tracking would

23:07

it be very minimal compression minimal

23:09

much more for leveling uh than it was

23:12

for the sound you know that's the most

23:13

interesting thing to me about about

23:15

compressions you know they actually came

23:17

from the film world and they were

23:19

designed they were designed to when when

23:23

the audio was on a film track uh it it

23:26

was it was designed to keep it from

23:28

going the red where it would distort and

23:30

there was no fixing so that's where it

23:31

came from and as they designed them and

23:33

different people got into trying it

23:35

there was this darn thing that you know

23:37

but it affected the sound you know it

23:39

made this it changed the sound and they

23:41

were really bugged by it and of course

23:43

as you well know that became exactly

23:45

what we use them for right we use them

23:47

to change the sound because we want it

23:49

to pump or we want it to you know to be

23:52

held extra high hard or whatever it's

23:55

kind of interesting would people use

23:58

chains of you know would people have

24:00

outboard eqs when did you start using

24:02

things like that rich Richie had Langs

24:05

and ptech he had a couple of each yeah

24:07

uh the the EQ on his homemade console

24:11

was um a a little a great sounding

24:13

little equalizer by Lan great sounding

24:16

because it was passive so the sound the

24:19

sound was only Changed by the recovery

24:20

amp that you used instead of anything

24:23

internal but and of course the knees and

24:25

Langs had outstanding sounding uh ampli

24:29

tube amplifiers in them uh that gave you

24:31

that flavor too along with it um as you

24:35

know I you know I I don't think I

24:39

changed much for a long time in terms of

24:41

limiters meaning that I uh I didn't get

24:44

into you know excessive use and I

24:47

definitely through through the whole all

24:50

of the 70s I never had a bus limiter

24:52

there might be one in mastering was that

24:54

uncommon at to have a bus limiter just

24:57

in general I think so yeah back then

24:59

absolutely so that's really a thing of

25:01

the 80s more my version is SSL changed

25:05

everything okay for me not necessarily

25:07

for the better I was not a fan of ssls

25:10

the sound until the 9,000 came out was

25:12

the first which is way longer way longer

25:15

and I I remember saying you know all the

25:18

early ones and a lot of guys and good

25:20

Engineers Bobby uh Clear Mountain came

25:22

up on that and whatnot and used as you

25:25

it was part of the sound and all that

25:27

that compressor especially their stereo

25:29

compressor uh the record company anr

25:33

people jumped on it like there was no

25:34

tomorrow sure I thought it was the

25:36

lamest thing going because and there's

25:38

so many great stories Glenn John's gave

25:40

me one there's a lot of them uh Glenn's

25:43

was the fact if well if you ever heard

25:46

uh FM radio on a good system you heard

25:49

their compression which was insane so

25:51

they it would jump out of the speakers

25:53

when someone's flipping the dial yeah

25:55

and so the these anr guys Glenn comes in

25:58

with and the guy shows him someone that

26:00

has done an SSL mix and he said that's

26:03

rubbish and he said but it sounds like

26:05

it's on the radio and he went exactly

26:08

you know sounds just as bad coming out

26:11

of the speakers as it will when it comes

26:13

out of FM radio on good speakers it's

26:15

like you know but but that became the

26:17

sound of you know and yeah of records

26:21

and and that's when everyone started

26:24

compressing more and more okay so you

26:26

worked with Ringo

26:28

on his uh

26:31

1973 release that had photograph on it I

26:34

mean really a lot of his your 16 a lot

26:38

of his biggest hits are on this one

26:39

record so 1973 where are you recording

26:43

this in La you most of this you did you

26:45

talk about it in your book Sunset sound

26:47

at Sunset sound the tracks you did with

26:49

McCartney were done over over there

26:51

McCartney couldn't come in the country

26:52

at the time because he'd had a drug bust

26:54

so he wasn't allowed in America for a

26:57

year 18 months or something something

26:59

and that album I've always said it it

27:00

was you know it was never told to me but

27:03

it certainly looked like the other three

27:06

Beatles were giving him a leg up knowing

27:09

that their careers were were going to

27:11

SAR because of their songwriting and

27:13

Ringo not being the song writer that

27:14

they were they all kind of jumped in to

27:16

help him out kind of thing which is

27:18

really cool yeah I think that he started

27:21

photograph and George helped him finish

27:23

the song is that right or it was it

27:24

George's song he started it yeah he it

27:27

was George he started it in England he

27:29

did a version in England Y and then when

27:32

Richard Perry and Ringo teamed up to do

27:35

the record uh we we started the record

27:37

and I don't remember what the first song

27:39

we cut was but the next day or two days

27:41

later or something George came over from

27:43

England and heard what we had done and

27:46

was very impressed and he jumped in then

27:48

and now I had two of The Beatles playing

27:50

on the records and on the record and he

27:53

played he played the he said you know I

27:56

got a great song for Ringo here that did

27:58

you know and he played it and you know

28:00

photograph is obviously the singer's

28:02

lost his girl and all he has is her

28:05

photograph and uh Richard thought and I

28:08

think rightfully so that uh George's

28:10

version was just a little too mournful

28:12

okay and a little happier version you

28:14

know might be good and that's when he

28:16

decided to give it the Phil Spectre wall

28:18

of sound kind of thing and George jumped

28:21

right in and and and jumped on it and

28:24

made it you know made it what it was you

28:26

talk about the Phil Spectre wall of

28:29

sound just for people that don't know

28:31

what that even means explain what that

28:33

means well on on those records in the

28:36

60s that he did he had you know huge

28:39

Rhythm sections he'd have two pianos and

28:42

four guitars it was sort of it was a

28:44

wall of sound you didn't hear individual

28:47

things at all it was just literally kind

28:49

of a wall of sound yeah or everything

28:51

everything was coming at you and done

28:54

right it definitely it was unique for

28:56

sure yeah and

28:58

and of course he recorded some of the

29:00

best songs ever uh in in that wall of

29:04

sound and we didn't do it quite like

29:06

that uh exactly we did it as a Rhythm

29:09

Section but George did I can't remember

29:11

I have I think I have the track sheet uh

29:14

I think you know I don't know how many

29:15

guitars he did but it was acoustic

29:17

guitars there was a lot of them going

29:19

and U but uh then to that end Richard

29:24

did hire uh the arranger that Phil

29:27

always used for Strings and a choir

29:30

later on I want to play photograph so

29:33

that people that may not know that

29:35

[Music]

29:48

song every time I see your face it

29:52

reminds me of the places we used to go

30:01

but all I've got is a

30:04

photograph and I

30:06

realize you're not coming back

30:14

anymore I thought I'd make

30:17

it the day you went

30:23

away but I can't make it till you come

30:27

home home again

30:30

[Music]

30:33

toay what am I hearing here Like These

30:36

acoustic guitars how would you track a

30:38

song like that no click tracks ever

30:41

right what's the first thing that gets

30:42

laid down is it a scratch vocal along

30:44

with the the whole Rhythm Section

30:45

playing together uh I don't I you know

30:48

it depended on song to song but so I

30:50

don't remember uh but ringle's playing

30:53

drums on that so there was no scratch

30:54

vocal at a live one anyway I think it

30:57

was probably just piano acoustic guitar

30:59

and bass and drums isolated everything

31:02

isolated in the same room or would they

31:04

be in isob boo typically back then uh

31:08

whatever you had Sunset sound after that

31:10

built uh some more isolation booths but

31:13

I don't think I think there was only

31:15

there was only one do you remember if

31:17

you were in a or b the uh two I AR they

31:20

one and two and three I was in two the

31:21

front room the room on the street just

31:23

now hearing the Acoustics I remember it

31:25

was uh I I remember I used Sony c37 on

31:28

the Acoustics which they had a lot of

31:30

and uh very good microphone uh

31:34

unfortunately uh I can't remember what

31:36

was on the drums I mean but typically

31:39

what would you how many mics would you

31:40

use on a drum kit back then by 73 I mean

31:43

it's obviously a bass drum Mike so

31:45

here's the thing let me give you a

31:46

little history of me with drums yeah uh

31:48

I got I got famous in Los Angeles for

31:51

the this bill CH drum sound and it's

31:53

kind of funny to me because I had met

31:55

Glenn John's who I just adored what he

31:58

did uh as far as size goes with the way

32:02

he used those mics I described earlier

32:04

but I he didn't use a snare mic and I

32:07

didn't like that at all um funny enough

32:10

neither did Keith Moon after he did

32:12

who's next Keith had gone and done an

32:14

album with someone else that used a

32:15

snare mic and when they went back for

32:17

the next album Glenn Glenn and Keith got

32:19

in a big fight because he really wanted

32:21

a snare mic but uh so I had that in my

32:24

head about the size and that I was

32:26

really I wanted that size but I wanted

32:28

impact and what happened was I started

32:31

listening to uh the early British

32:34

records especially the uh Trident

32:36

Studios Elton Elton John for instance

32:39

and here I was raised by an old school

32:42

guy which was you you select the Right

32:46

microphone and you know learn how micing

32:48

Works to to get the sound you want and

32:51

you if you have to use EQ then you use

32:54

EQ but you start with the mic and how

32:56

it's placed some I still think is

32:59

absolutely excellent to do absolutely

33:01

yeah EQ is not necessarily bad but you

33:03

use it if you have to uh all of a sudden

33:06

I'm hearing uh two things in elton's

33:09

records one there's obviously a mic on

33:12

every drum I can hear that okay and two

33:16

I am now hearing the sound of

33:18

Equalization they're eqing it to death

33:21

sort to speak they're really eqed okay

33:24

there was something in all of that that

33:26

I kind of liked and so the quote Bill

33:29

schn drum sound was me taking that

33:31

without all of the EQ but definitely

33:33

that's when I started miking all the

33:35

drums and learning again I said earlier

33:39

how do you learn when you know young you

33:41

just keep trying it and until you get it

33:44

right and I I'm pretty sure by this

33:46

already I'm I'm I've got Tom mics okay

33:50

and what kind of Tom mics would you use

33:52

I I'm pretty sure by then I'm using

33:53

tunkin overhead C12 C12 akg's or tun in

33:58

a stereo pair or single stereo would

34:01

they be a space pair what would you use

34:03

yeah trying to catch the kit from here

34:05

so to speak this is where I started

34:07

later on I actually started doing both I

34:09

started doing sort of Glenn's thing with

34:12

Tom Mike's okay as well but back then it

34:14

was definitely like that and and then

34:17

sorry I can't remember what what those

34:18

mics were but you know how the memories

34:20

are I got to tell you a funny story

34:22

about that uh about I don't know eight

34:25

or 10 years ago now uh I was I happened

34:28

to be at Sunset sound and the uh owner

34:30

came in and said um you know the the the

34:34

the the guy there's an English company

34:37

that for the console we had on Ringo's

34:39

album sound techniques he's bought the

34:41

rights to it in England and he wants you

34:44

know he wants your opinion of what was

34:46

on and I went sound techniques I I did I

34:50

didn't use the sound techniques and he

34:52

said no you did that's what was there I

34:54

said are you crazy I I don't and comes

34:58

in with a picture and shows me the

34:59

picture and as soon as I saw it I went

35:01

oh my gosh you're right that is the what

35:03

it was so talk about memories and that

35:05

that was 10 years ago and this is 10

35:07

years later no idea what the Tom mics

35:09

were I mean it's not like you had a

35:11

million different mics that people would

35:13

use back in that day right there would

35:15

be only certain microphones you'd have

35:17

nyman microphones you'd have Sennheiser

35:20

microphones Telefunken there was certain

35:23

brands that were that were well AKG yeah

35:26

what I do know when I tried uh Dynamics

35:29

I didn't like it which is what I dare

35:32

say most people do to this this day I

35:35

think uh I didn't like I wanted even I

35:37

wanted the Fidelity so even on the toms

35:39

you would use condenser mics right so

35:41

okay explain to the lay person what the

35:43

difference between a dynamic and a

35:45

condenser mic is condenser mics are are

35:48

they are powered one way or another the

35:51

there's a power to the capsule that that

35:53

goes on the capsule and Dynamics don't

35:56

have that there and the best way to

35:58

describe it is there's a more buoyant

36:00

sound to a condenser it's more usually

36:03

almost all well almost always more full

36:05

range yep and uh and not as dry is the

36:09

only word I know how to describe but

36:10

higher Fidelity higher Fidelity sound up

36:13

and down bik yes yeah the the extreme

36:15

top end and bottom end yeah I tried uh

36:18

421 sen heis of 421s which a lot of

36:21

people still use and I just didn't like

36:23

that that dry sound it didn't blend as

36:25

well with me with the condensers that

36:27

were picking up hopefully most of the

36:29

drum kit the reason it's hard to

36:30

remember back then because the problem

36:32

that you had was that's an incredible

36:34

amount of level when you when you're

36:35

sitting on a drum head sure so there

36:38

were only certain mics that could take

36:39

it and uh I'm pretty sure c37svtcnsuy

36:58

yeah the the early early ones like and

37:00

then later on the d112 maybe or whatever

37:04

but they were very very popular when I

37:06

when I left Richie's Studio he used a an

37:08

oddball EV mic electrovoice mic and I

37:13

went and bought one and it didn't sound

37:15

the same in any other Studio that didn't

37:17

work so I went crazy when I left his

37:20

studio trying things to to get a bass

37:23

drum sound anything like what we were

37:25

getting at his place and what I ended up

37:28

with which was again nothing like his

37:29

place but I I could work with it was uh

37:33

the 421 on the kick didn't like it on

37:36

the Tom's inside the kick pretty much

37:38

yeah at that time would people have no

37:40

bass drum head or was there still a

37:42

front bass drum head uh it was

37:44

combination okay combination a lot of

37:46

guys still had a front head uh and but

37:49

it wasn't as much the way it what ended

37:51

up happening is a hole in the front head

37:53

so you had a little bit of the mounts

37:55

but uh but back then it would be

37:58

uh if if they had a front head we'd

38:00

usually just take it off put a blanket

38:02

in there and put the drum inside and so

38:05

it's a very flat sound and certainly

38:07

nothing you know nothing of to as much

38:09

tone as you can get with two heads any

38:11

other room mics would that be a common

38:13

thing or no no no room mic it was called

38:15

leakage it was the you had you had the

38:18

sound of of the drums getting into other

38:21

instruments and you and and early early

38:23

on you did your best to work with that

38:25

to make it your friend uh you know my my

38:28

whole story of uh uh in when eight Trak

38:32

came out is when leakage became a bad

38:34

word up until that point um you know

38:37

first of all the rooms were designed for

38:38

an ensemble to play in so they weren't

38:40

too live they weren't too dead that you

38:43

know and when atak came out it was um

38:46

all of a sudden it became a bad thing

38:48

the the hypothetical that I give is that

38:51

there was uh the producer comes in for a

38:54

new session with his band and he the

38:56

engineer says you know we really should

38:58

go to atra why isn't the tape more

39:01

expensive yeah yeah yeah but listen we

39:03

put things on separate tracks you have

39:04

much more control in the mix we have

39:06

we're able to get the mix much more

39:08

focused and everything you can even

39:10

rearrange it you know you can take

39:12

things in and out oh okay so he pays the

39:15

extra money they do the thing he comes

39:16

in for the mix on the first song and

39:18

he's listening he goes yeah I like your

39:20

mix okay what would sound like if you

39:22

took if you took the drums out of the

39:24

intro and just let the piano have it so

39:26

he turn he notice that it's a rotary

39:28

fader still he turns down the he turns

39:31

down the drums and producer says I I

39:34

still hear the symbols and he goes uh

39:36

yeah that's the spill of the drums into

39:39

the piano so we can't take that to can

39:41

we he said no I guess not but uh next

39:44

time I can fix that and that's when we

39:46

started blanketing pianos that's when we

39:49

and ultimately that led to the redesign

39:51

through the 70s of recording studios

39:53

where they were dead boxes because uh we

39:57

don't want the sound of this instrument

39:59

to get over here so that's how we do it

40:01

unfortunately the sound of this

40:03

instrument in that kind of room isn't as

40:05

good as it in a dead box as it is in a

40:07

room that gives you something so uh 1980

40:10

when I built my own Studio the reason I

40:12

built it the only reason I told the uh

40:14

architect the only reason I'm building a

40:16

studio is to get a room with a sound

40:18

like the ones built in the 50s and and

40:20

early 60s and uh I don't know how to get

40:23

it I'll know it when I have it if we

40:24

don't get it the first time I'm tearing

40:26

the inside out and doing it over and I

40:28

went with celotex which is what Richie

40:30

had in his studio and all radio Studios

40:33

and evidently on TV a lot of

40:34

interrogation rooms in police stations

40:37

it's the the one foot the one foot white

40:41

uh tablets with holes in it yeah

40:44

sometimes random sometimes fixed and I

40:46

went with that because I knew I knew

40:48

that had good properties for deadening

40:50

sound and uh and it worked out great in

40:53

my studio how did you get the gig

40:56

working with Steely Dan it's funny you

40:59

should ask that because uh I just

41:01

learned that very

41:03

recently um Gary Katz the producer

41:06

called me up and said uh would you like

41:08

to record the next Steely Dan album and

41:11

I said uh let me think about yes as a

41:13

matter of fact I would love to and when

41:16

I I remember when I got off the phone my

41:18

friends Jeff barar Michael ardian that

41:20

had played on previous records had told

41:22

me about the dare I call them maniacal

41:25

ways that they would go through

41:27

sometimes s to get what they wanted and

41:29

I'm not a particularly patient person

41:32

more over than that uh I really like I

41:35

like to move fast in everything in life

41:37

but my creative juices you know they

41:40

don't want to get stalled and the plane

41:42

drop out of the sky so I want to keep

41:44

moving and whatnot uh and I I I have to

41:47

watch myself if it's not even even more

41:50

so when I'm producing sometimes but

41:51

always that I don't drive Somebody To

41:54

You Know overdrive them but I knew I had

41:58

to do it I knew I had to do it so I done

42:00

did it and and to my wonderful surprise

42:05

that album was very different than any

42:07

album they ever did before or after

42:10

first of all it was all professional

42:12

musicians they had used interpers

42:14

professional musicians but this was the

42:17

whole

42:18

band was was top professional musicians

42:24

and it was a no drug Zone with which

42:27

also surprised me uh and they were they

42:31

were professional type sessions I mean

42:32

we started at 2:00 we ended early was

42:35

that is that a normal time to have

42:37

started or not well it depends on the

42:38

you know know people didn't start

42:40

sessions at 10: a.m. well bands usually

42:43

wouldn't okay you know bands usually

42:45

wouldn't like when you watch The Beatles

42:47

things they would come in at 8 in the

42:48

morning or whatever it looked like they

42:49

would be like a job so some would some

42:52

wouldn't but uh and most most

42:55

professional sessions would start at 10

42:58

but these guys wanted to start at 2 and

43:01

and it worked great um I mean it was

43:03

just they were wonderful I mean it was

43:05

nothing like what I had expected we we

43:07

moved very quickly uh you know they

43:10

never got hung up on anything and it was

43:13

great you know uh you I know you've

43:16

talked to a lot of people involved they

43:17

probably told you every day they came in

43:20

with a piano base demo sometimes with a

43:23

la la once in a while with a little bit

43:25

of uh lyric but but always a piano-based

43:28

demo that they would play and they had

43:30

given those to Larry Carlton he did the

43:33

charts of them and it's so interesting

43:34

because more than once on those sessions

43:37

one of the musicians said Donald that

43:39

sounds unbelievable why don't you just

43:41

overdub the drums and he said no no

43:44

we'll get it better we'll get it better

43:46

and did we didn't we who knows but you

43:48

know a funny story I don't know if you

43:49

know this one uh about eight months or

43:52

something after Asia came out they

43:55

called me to do a session for uh the

43:57

film FM that right yeah and uh Jim kler

44:01

played drums and so we got the track and

44:04

they went off like they did on Asia to

44:06

do their overdubs and whatnot and

44:08

evidently they didn't like the track and

44:10

they went back to the piano voice thing

44:12

and overdub Jeff Baro and that's the

44:14

record so when you can hear by listening

44:17

to FM which is kind of kind of an Asia

44:21

song You Hear kind of what Donald's

44:23

demos would sound like yeah exactly

44:26

because that is that was the demo when

44:28

he would come in and play the demos so

44:31

so Larry would have the charts written

44:32

out the guys would show up to the

44:34

studio they'd be on stands you'd help

44:38

set all this stuff up and whatever

44:40

assistants were there right how far

44:42

apart of these guys can they see each

44:44

other I ask everybody this same question

44:46

if Michael is om Martin's playing the

44:48

piano is the piano have packing blankets

44:51

on it and if it does how do you how do

44:52

you mic it it was in the studio called

44:55

producers Workshop mhm and and uh which

44:58

was owned by the at that time by the

45:00

management company of Liberace okay and

45:03

because of that problem problem of

45:05

leakage they had built a shell around

45:08

the piano so there was the keyboard and

45:10

a and a wall all like like a plexiglass

45:14

wall or or a okay wood wall yeah wooden

45:16

wall all around it but you could still

45:18

see over it right no you had it was up

45:21

against the control room wall and what

45:24

he could see you know he would look over

45:25

there you could see the the music Ians

45:27

he'd look right over there's the drummer

45:28

over there he might not see the guitars

45:31

we're probably back there as I recall

45:33

okay but so line of sight was always

45:36

very very important to me so you you're

45:38

setting up for a session let's say

45:39

you're recording the song Asia like to

45:42

come back to that okay what first of all

45:44

when Gary in that first phone call he

45:46

said you know the boys are uh are are

45:49

wanting are are really concerned about

45:52

drums we're going to have a revolving

45:53

door of drums so you're going to be

45:55

getting a new drum sound every few days

45:57

MH just want you to know that and I said

45:59

okay that's fine no problem I remember

46:01

the day they said that you know uh Steve

46:04

gad's flying in today and we have him

46:06

for two days uh and oh great so uh I was

46:11

very familiar with 50 Ways to Leave Your

46:13

I'm a wannabe drummer as is Michael om

46:17

Marian uh and I I I love drums and that

46:21

the the whole Groove that he came up

46:23

with on 50 Ways to Leave Your L with the

46:24

drag snare is just phenomenal so I was

46:27

really excited to see him and I don't

46:30

remember what we cut we cut four songs

46:34

in two days with him okay so at the end

46:37

of the first day everyone's left and

46:39

they're just kind of talk talking to to

46:43

each other and I walk by and I hear yeah

46:45

not me

46:46

either you know me either and I went

46:49

what I'm sorry what he said Oh no just

46:51

talking about Steve oh he was great

46:53

wasn't he you know honestly we didn't

46:56

really love him I said really why I said

46:59

why he said well you know we like we

47:02

like to BackBeat like Kelner or picaro

47:05

you know where it's kind of back you

47:06

know he's he's kind of just too on the

47:08

beat for me and I went guys that's my

47:11

favorite kind of drummer too but listen

47:13

to what we he played today I'm pretty

47:16

sure uh I'm pretty sure I I know that I

47:21

know I'm I I'm pretty sure the bear you

47:23

know the bear these unreleased one and

47:25

uh seaw wall those might have been the

47:28

first two so anyway I I was I was

47:31

absolutely shocked in fact the next day

47:33

we did the next two songs and you know

47:36

when we were done with all the tracking

47:37

they asked me this is a whole another

47:39

story but they asked me to you we're

47:40

going to go off and do our overdubs for

47:41

six months and we want you to mix it and

47:44

I said guys I got to tell you I don't

47:46

think uh our Styles would go together at

47:49

that time uh have again having been Le

47:52

learn Having learned from the beginning

47:54

about mixing live um and and then uh

47:57

whatnot I you know I mixed for a

47:59

performance so I wanted to start the

48:01

song and I you know I'd marked the

48:03

faders as to where I thought the

48:04

relative static balance would be but uh

48:07

it was a performance on my part at that

48:09

point all the all the way and I had I

48:12

had already heard what mixing with them

48:14

was like and Donald turned to me and

48:17

said you'll try won't you you know kind

48:19

of like that and I said of course I will

48:20

and so six months later they brought

48:22

when Josie comes home went into a studio

48:25

that I liked a lot and I I got the mix

48:28

they came over and listened to it and oh

48:30

it sounds great sounds great and then it

48:32

started what about what if we did this

48:36

okay well what if we did this in the

48:38

verse but it did that in the chorus okay

48:41

and this went on and on and on and after

48:43

about four more five more hours of that

48:45

I would they could tell I it and I

48:48

finally I said guys look yeah I was

48:51

afraid of this you know you got a

48:52

phenomenal album here it's going to be

48:54

great whoever you get to mix it and uh

48:57

and I knew it would be Elliot for the

48:59

lion Sher Shin yeah Elliot Shiner and

49:02

and it was and and is but the cute story

49:05

that I love is uh I worked a lot with

49:10

very incredible producer Richard Perry

49:12

who was a you know the star producer

49:16

through the 70s and uh at the end of the

49:19

first day I called Richard and I said

49:20

Richard you know Steve Gad and he said

49:22

yeah 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover I said

49:24

yeah I just recorded him today cut two

49:27

tracks this guy is a monster and he said

49:30

good old Richard do you think I could

49:32

have a session with him I said well he's

49:33

going back to New York after tomorrow um

49:37

and he said what time do you start and I

49:38

went oh no uh 2 o'clock well okay hold

49:43

on so I called Gary Gary was a huge fan

49:45

of Richard's but also knew Richard's

49:47

ways Richard was a real Pusher he he

49:50

would beat BS up getting the track

49:52

getting the music out of him so he said

49:56

okay he can come in but you got to cut

49:58

it off at one the boys will kill me okay

50:01

so you're you're set up to record Steely

50:03

Dan you've recorded one day of Steve Gad

50:05

use the same setup that you're using

50:07

exactly Richard had his own Studio at

50:09

that point I said but you're going to

50:10

have to come here CU I'm not getting the

50:13

so he brings over the tape or you throw

50:14

up new tape to record this stuff right

50:17

and the exact same setup that's being

50:20

used to record the Asia sessions he

50:23

comes in with this uh affable little

50:26

fellow Leo s mhm and uh we start working

50:29

on this song uh and lo and behold it's

50:33

it's the first or second cousin to 50

50:35

Ways to Leave Your Lover on Steve's part

50:38

and it's just great and you know people

50:41

say you know when you when you have a

50:42

hit record do you know it at the time I

50:44

said you know probably most often not

50:47

but he put a rough vocal on you make me

50:49

feel like dancing and I and I knew right

50:53

then oh my gosh that this is going to be

50:56

a hit and we the most amazing part is we

50:58

got it in 2 hours and 35 minutes which

51:01

was unheard of for Richard I mean he

51:03

normally took 5 hours okay so the song

51:06

You Make Me Feel Like Dancing which was

51:07

a number one song is recorded on the

51:10

same day that he tracked Asia yep so

51:14

then but let me finish so two hours and

51:17

35 minutes Richard being The Pusher that

51:19

he is says can we do another song I said

51:21

Richard we got 25 minutes there's no way

51:24

he said I'll stop I promise I said all

51:26

right right fine so we we go out he does

51:29

another song that song was called how

51:31

much love when when that when his album

51:34

came out Leo Al came out the first

51:35

single was when I need you number one

51:37

second single was You Make Me Feel Like

51:39

Dancing you said number one the third

51:40

one was the other track from him how

51:42

much love I think it was top 20 and that

51:45

afternoon I cut two more tracks with

51:47

with Gad including Asia that's called a

51:49

big day in the studio okay if I'm

51:51

listening to these songs if I'm

51:53

listening to You Make Me Feel Like

51:54

Dancing and and listen to Asia the drum

51:59

sounds are going to be S very similar

52:01

right yeah of course the drum part is in

52:03

drum part is different but the drum

52:04

sound yeah I need to that's a that's a

52:08

great video right there yeah it is the

52:10

exact same drum sound speaking of the

52:12

drum sound I want to play the uh basic

52:15

Rhythm track which um which you have

52:18

here you're going to play the track I

52:20

gave you yeah yeah the funny the cute

52:23

story of that which I think I told you

52:24

when I sent it to you was that you know

52:26

second Engineers do bad things when

52:28

everyone's gone and about it was only

52:31

about 10 years ago uh one of the second

52:33

Engineers on those tracking dates told

52:36

me you know I went in after and and

52:38

copied the tracks I said you did and uh

52:41

he said yeah and I baled him out not

52:43

that he had done it but he told me he

52:45

only got about five of them or something

52:47

I said why didn't you get all of them

52:49

but yeah it was great to hear the track

52:50

and you hear that because uh and again

52:54

we talked about this memories are

52:55

fallible yeah I said it in the book if

52:57

someone remembers a story different than

52:59

me you know mine's fall yours is too who

53:01

knows to the best of my ability and I

53:04

had a pretty darn good memory have a

53:06

pretty darn good memory uh we rehearsed

53:09

this song more than any other song and

53:11

michaelian remembers that well it's an

53:14

incredibly complex Arrangement oh my

53:16

gosh yes and with chords that don't make

53:18

any sense and it had no Melody on it and

53:21

I remember you know every day at the end

53:23

of a session I would go home and pop a

53:25

cassette in with whatever we had done

53:28

and that day I I remember popping it in

53:31

and listening on the way home and I went

53:33

you know I mean I loved the chords and

53:35

how what he had done with it but I went

53:37

how in the world is a Melody going to go

53:38

on it just sounded like one long so they

53:41

didn't have a demo of this song then

53:42

right I didn't hear any laas or lyrics

53:46

at that point I think he I'm pretty sure

53:48

he wrote everything after the fact he

53:49

wrote everything to this probably right

53:52

to to the to a rough from all the

53:54

different stories I one thing I know for

53:55

sure we only did two takes not one y and

53:59

we used the one with the click sticks

54:01

and I just recently asked Donald do you

54:04

remember if that was track one the first

54:06

or second he goes I don't and uh then I

54:08

asked him did you by any chance edit the

54:10

two takes together and he was going we

54:13

might have which to me is no you didn't

54:16

right but I I've I I I haven't done a

54:18

one maybe you will a Ono one comparison

54:20

the whole way but at least through the

54:22

first

54:22

solo for sure it's the same that's the

54:25

same thing yes that's it let me play a

54:26

little bit I'm going to go a little bit

54:27

into the track

54:31

[Music]

54:32

here okay so let's set this up we have

54:36

Steve Gad on drums Larry Carlton on

54:38

guitar Michael Marty on piano Chuck

54:40

Rainey on the bass and someone on

54:42

electric piano yeah probably Victor

54:44

Feldman probably Victor Feldman I once

54:47

in a while Joe Sample played the second

54:49

but vict yeah but I remember Victor

54:52

playing roads

54:55

more it's just an astounding track it's

54:58

just

55:00

[Music]

55:25

gorgeous

55:27

[Music]

55:31

okay it's so

55:33

tight it is so tight the guys are

55:36

looking at each other right while

55:37

they're playing it or they are these are

55:39

long charts I it was when they started

55:43

rehearsing it you know we had to take a

55:45

good amount of time and get every M uh

55:48

music stand we could to to get you know

55:51

like Steve's especially he wanted to be

55:53

able to see the whole thing and it was I

55:55

it was at least eight pages if not 10

55:58

I've heard as much as 15 okay so Larry

56:01

did the transcriptions of this stuff

56:03

then so Larry wrote out these charts yep

56:06

and and they were followed I mean in

56:08

terms the only thing I remember was

56:10

Sometimes some moving around of sections

56:12

on a song yeah this one I think was you

56:15

know like I said there was so much

56:16

rehearsal going on maybe there was some

56:18

of that there probably was now I think

56:20

about it but uh but but in terms of the

56:25

the uh the actual words of what what

56:27

Donald and Walter wanted that that was

56:30

almost never changed once in a while

56:32

somebody might come up with a voicing

56:33

that was different or what if it was

56:34

this instead of that a little bit that

56:36

but it was you know probably 90% what

56:39

was brought in okay so I'm going to move

56:41

a little bit ahead

56:43

[Music]

56:55

here

56:56

[Music]

57:58

the clarity of everything on here and

58:01

this is this probably was was this done

58:03

to cassette or done to a quarter inch

58:05

this this rough mix here you in qu I'm

58:08

sure the symbols the toms the punchiness

58:12

of it the clarity of the piano the

58:15

guitar when you miked Larry's guitar amp

58:18

would you use one microphone on it

58:20

typically would you use a condenser mic

58:22

what would you use it's hard to know cuz

58:24

I I went back and forth over the the

58:26

years what did you like to use like

58:28

typically uh on on guitar amps um 57 yep

58:32

start with a 57 and you can't go wrong

58:35

so this is something that would go go

58:36

way back that that was a common always

58:38

been a common guitar microphone 57 but

58:41

when I wanted uh you know because back

58:44

then on that I'm pretty sure it was a

58:47

you know no more if it was a 12-in

58:50

speaker in his thing I'd be surprised it

58:52

was either a 10 or a 12 it was not a big

58:54

amp at all yeah and uh

58:56

so if it was in that studio it would

58:59

probably have been a if if it was a

59:01

condenser it probably was a noyman c84

59:04

okay and let me say about that you're

59:06

talking about all the clarity and this

59:07

and that which actually goes back to why

59:09

they hired me um this was the this

59:12

little Studio producers Workshop was

59:14

behind the mastering lab and Doug Sachs

59:17

famous mastering engineer had opened the

59:20

lab in ' 67 and to to help sell his the

59:24

lab he did did an album direct to dis

59:28

meaning he brought his partner was a

59:30

keyboard player great keyboard player

59:32

and they he did Arrangements of some

59:35

songs and they did an album directed

59:37

disc which means you recorded song one

59:39

then song two then song three then song

59:40

four because it's going right to the

59:42

lathe and you can't stop and start the

59:44

lathe

59:46

so um when he he did one he did that and

59:49

and pressed it up and it was he was

59:51

giving them out to people to say I do

59:54

great mastering now he's cheating

59:55

because direct to dis you cut out two

59:58

generations of analog tape and only one

60:00

passed through the console so you're

60:02

you're much cleaner and pure than than

60:04

normal so it was a little unfair how he

60:06

did that he did that but whatever but in

60:09

1972 they asked me to they were going to

60:12

do another one of lincol my orgas music

60:14

again and I did it and I mean it was the

60:18

most fun I'd ever had in the studio I

60:19

mean three days you have an album

60:22

recorded mixed and mastered and uh a lot

60:25

of pressure attention for sure some I

60:27

never smoked but somebody had one of

60:29

those Tipper rollas with a wooden tip on

60:31

it and I asked for it and I went through

60:33

one of the takes and 15 minutes later I

60:35

pulled out the splinters because it was

60:38

it it was nerve-wracking I went on to

60:40

convince Doug to let me produce an album

60:43

direct to dis with a vocalist and I

60:45

wanted to do more contemporary music

60:47

than what Lincoln did that's what ended

60:50

up happening I had just worked I only

60:52

knew two singers that could deliver a

60:54

vocal on the last cut the first was

60:56

Barbara strand who had done the last

60:58

three albums and I called her manager

61:00

who literally said go away Kid you're

61:03

bothering me and the other one was a

61:05

brand new artist on mtown that I had

61:07

just done some singles they were testing

61:09

her out named Thelma Houston and so

61:12

that's uh I went to mtown and agreed and

61:14

then we did that record well funny

61:16

enough here a couple of years later Gary

61:19

cats calls me to do the record and I you

61:22

know I told you the story and I've

61:25

always wondered wondered for years why

61:28

they called me and uh I a couple of

61:31

years ago I was with Elliot Shiner and I

61:32

asked him you know why did they hire me

61:34

and he said because they fired me and I

61:37

said well that's why they fired you but

61:39

why did they hire me and he said I don't

61:40

know and so anyway very recently there's

61:44

a reissue of uh Asia at 45 RPM which

61:50

sounds really good yeah and it yeah it

61:53

was Mastered by Bernie grundman did the

61:56

original and whatnot and it's at 45 so

61:59

it takes two discs and 45 not only

62:02

sounds better going faster but you stay

62:04

away from the inner Groove which CA

62:07

which has Distortion yep so it's it's a

62:09

really delightful piece and uh in in the

62:13

Box they sent it to me and in the Box uh

62:16

Donald wrote a little paragraph of liner

62:18

notes and in it he says we had found we

62:21

had heard about this guy Bill schne who

62:23

was known for highi da da da d da and I

62:26

am convinced that it was that directed

62:27

disc record that made a lot of noise in

62:31

all over the world but it it was found

62:33

Thelma's record was in every Hi-Fi store

62:35

in the country and soon the world

62:37

because the weakest link in a Hi-Fi

62:39

system is almost always the source and

62:41

you give them a better sounding Source

62:43

their amplifiers cartridges everything

62:45

sound better so that's what what it was

62:48

so I just learned that a few weeks ago

62:50

why they why they hired me okay so I

62:53

want to get to this to the drum part

62:55

that every body talks

62:57

[Music]

63:24

about

63:27

okay first of all that sounds phenomenal

63:30

the Tom sounds everything about that

63:33

sounds incredible

63:35

now some of that is Steve Gad knows how

63:38

to hit the

63:39

drums perfectly right but the recording

63:44

tune them and hit them yeah yes and hit

63:46

them but the recording of it is

63:48

spectacular this stick click that was

63:51

unintentional totally did that bother

63:53

Walter and Donald it's hard to know it's

63:56

really hard to know um like I said I I

63:59

asked Donald recently what do you

64:01

remember if it was the first take or

64:02

second take and he doesn't like I don't

64:05

the stick looks perfectly on time yeah

64:08

well I guess I don't know what he was

64:09

going for you know but he hit the other

64:11

stick instead of whatever drum he was

64:13

aiming for but it sounded it almost

64:15

sounds like like he intended to do

64:16

intended to do it because it's so

64:18

perfectly placed in the beat and it's a

64:21

perfect stick click yeah who knows but

64:24

you know I I just remember the I I do

64:26

remember this on the first take and the

64:28

second take uh it's not and it's not

64:31

that that wasn't rehearsed but it wasn't

64:33

then other words it none of the

64:34

rehearsals had that that you know he

64:37

might have been doing something but it

64:39

wasn't that he definitely put it in

64:41

another gear when the first time we put

64:43

it down on tape did everybody react when

64:45

he played it did did well we didn't see

64:47

it but you had to you could not not

64:49

react you're sitting there in the

64:50

control room and this is coming through

64:51

the speakers live I'm sitting there with

64:53

my hands on the faders trying to make

64:55

sure got everything going and it's like

64:57

what in the world is happening here cuz

64:59

I it was unlike anything on a rock

65:01

record that you would ever hear pop

65:03

record whatever you want to call it when

65:05

I interviewed Michael Omarian about it

65:07

he said that they couldn't believe what

65:09

he was playing and one of the other

65:11

amazing things I know you know is you

65:14

you know you talk about a tight band oh

65:17

my gosh the punches and hits and

65:19

everything yes they're they're

65:21

incredible yeah you know again if

65:23

everyone was going off of a click that's

65:25

one thing because guys learned how to

65:27

you know through the years have learned

65:29

the the great musicians uh that uh they

65:32

learn how to play with a click and so

65:34

that's one thing but this is this is in

65:36

the room with everybody and they you

65:38

know I don't think there's one missed

65:39

one would they come back in the control

65:41

room and listen back to these things

65:43

after yeah now something like this

65:46

that's so

65:47

unusual would they uh would this be

65:50

something like I don't believe that

65:52

that's amazing I mean the the the later

65:54

on drum Parts here that

65:59

[Music]

66:21

[Music]

66:24

happen

66:28

[Music]

66:39

I mean that's some amazing drumming

66:40

right there okay now when you come back

66:45

and listen to playback and you hear that

66:47

were they I would think that they'd be

66:49

high five and Ste Steve Gad like what

66:52

that was amazing right I can tell you

66:54

this based on what I told after the

66:56

first day yeah I when when he left I

66:59

didn't think they were going to use

67:00

anything that he did I I I I didn't

67:02

think and I was shocked you know like I

67:05

said I did try to mix it didn't work out

67:07

whatever whatever when I didn't hear it

67:09

then until the record came out and when

67:10

I heard it Asia huh and I'm I didn't

67:13

know what it was I don't know that it

67:14

had that title I I I don't remember if

67:17

some of them had titles a lot of them

67:19

like I said I know this was just one

67:20

long instrumental it didn't have any

67:22

lyrical ideas of any kind and I went and

67:25

it came on and I went whoa that's that

67:27

instrumental that that incredible thing

67:30

and it was so great to hear it again so

67:32

when you heard the finished mix of the

67:35

record you must have been so proud of it

67:37

right to being involved with this I mean

67:38

this is still one of the greatest

67:40

recorded records of all time I mean it's

67:42

wonderful that it has endured the way it

67:44

has um again I mean and there it's all

67:48

great the whole record is great for

67:49

crying out loud but um um that

67:53

particular cut especially there's just

67:55

it's just you know it it it yeah I'm

67:59

very proud of the the whole experience I

68:01

want to ask you a couple specific things

68:03

too because you work with Larry Carlton

68:04

a lot yeah when you talk about the

68:06

tightness and this and that everything

68:07

else I can't emphasize enough how good

68:10

that studio was the room itself for the

68:13

size room and it wasn't very big at all

68:16

when you say not very big compared to

68:17

this room

68:20

um H prob when we pull it out like this

68:24

uh probably the same at the most May

68:27

teeny bit smaller maybe but about the

68:29

same okay but it was a good sounding

68:31

room you know it wasn't it wasn't super

68:34

dead at all now by the time you put a

68:37

band in there it deadens down you know

68:39

let on big band but uh and they had a

68:42

homemade console I was always big on

68:44

homemade consoles that's why I built

68:46

mine in my own Studio Y and really great

68:49

sounding console and accurate monitors

68:52

you know everything you need and the

68:54

they direct to discre record that I did

68:56

two years earlier um uh same same exact

68:59

studio with Larry and Dean Parks were on

69:03

that session and that was that directed

69:05

this session was huge it was it was

69:08

Thelma six background singers two

69:10

drummers Kelner and Gordon because I

69:12

wanted two two of the most different

69:14

feeling drummers that I could get to try

69:17

to have you know so I had the guy that

69:18

lays it back and Gordon was always

69:20

almost leaning and two best guitar

69:22

players uh o Omarian and someone else I

69:27

mean I I had a phenomenal band and

69:30

really helped make that record what it

69:31

was Larry Dean Omarian Chuck Rainey

69:36

these Kelner Steve G these people are so

69:41

accurate they're playing is so accurate

69:44

would they ever say you know I didn't

69:45

like that one thing I did there can we

69:46

punch this one section how often would

69:48

that happen it would it could happen it

69:51

could happen for sure when people come

69:53

in the control room and say boy I think

69:56

I think I could do a better take or yeah

69:58

absolutely okay and would ever would

70:00

someone ever go out you a song like that

70:03

you could never go out and re oh no no

70:06

it's Perfection yet it's not even played

70:08

to a click right and it's so accurate

70:11

yeah musicianship the musicianship on

70:14

this entire record is so good again they

70:17

spent months doing overdubs yeah months

70:21

and um of course what what really

70:23

thrilled me was that shorter solo you

70:26

know and and all of the ones the ones

70:28

that I have the that the second engineer

70:30

did capture um that they didn't lose the

70:35

heart and soul of any of them yeah you

70:37

know they changed almost nothing on this

70:39

obviously not a whole lot on this one

70:41

some of them they made some changes but

70:44

they still the the sole of the basic

70:46

track is absolutely there they oh yeah

70:48

that that sounds that's the song except

70:50

for the real big change on Peg because

70:53

they recut that totally after me my

70:55

version version i c was very very

70:57

different and that was much their new

70:59

one was much better I want to go back to

71:01

the Ringo record and you worked with all

71:03

four Beatles on that how were their

71:06

personalities different at that point

71:08

this is post Beatles this is you know

71:10

three years after they broke up when

71:12

John lennin came in were you

71:15

nervous um how old am I 24 I think MH

71:19

nervous I'll tell you I remember going

71:21

in to do the setup Sunday night before

71:24

the session and first thing as I go in I

71:26

trip over not literally uh the flight

71:29

cases and here it says the Beatles Ringo

71:33

Star okay and then I go in the room and

71:36

here's a drum kit now it may not have

71:38

been on any Beetle records I don't know

71:41

whatever but it's Ringo's drums yeah so

71:43

you're a little nervous when miking them

71:45

up and whatever um wondering what's

71:49

going to happen and uh I didn't meet him

71:51

until the next day for the first time

71:54

Ringo is if you've ever seen him on an

71:56

interview anywhere what you see is what

71:59

you get it's just

72:00

funloving funloving guy y uh peace and

72:04

love peace and love then when George

72:07

came over he was known as The Quiet One

72:09

he wasn't so quiet okay now then again

72:13

he wasn't sitting behind lenon and

72:15

McCartney Right and uh as we all know

72:18

his songwriting when he got out from

72:20

under that went through the roof once he

72:23

wasn't was he intimidated I don't know

72:25

but let's just say his songwriting

72:27

definitely got great by when he was

72:29

although Abby RH his two songs are the

72:32

are the St standout tracks on the record

72:34

but he was he was quite vocal and you

72:37

know like I said he liked what we had

72:39

been doing and he jumped right in and

72:40

was offering suggestions and just made

72:42

the session go smoothly and then at the

72:44

end of the week when Richard said um uh

72:48

Monday John's coming in with his song

72:51

and oh okay and I didn't think about it

72:53

until again Sunday night when I went

72:56

wait a minute there's going to be three

72:58

Beatles in the room and uh and it was so

73:01

interesting because John uh was very cut

73:05

and dried I mean there was all business

73:08

all business all music he ran the you

73:11

know the they both the other two were

73:13

just looking to anything and everything

73:15

he said he was he directing and the

73:18

record was done when he said it was done

73:20

the whole

73:21

bit and uh now what's interesting is I

73:24

did the next record

73:25

uh two years later I guess it was with

73:28

Ringo where JN played a much bigger role

73:31

I got to spend a lot more time with him

73:33

and whatnot and uh unfortunately the

73:36

others were off doing their things and

73:38

so there wasn't as much involvement

73:40

there was John's uh demeanor a little

73:42

different then was it or were you less

73:44

nervous I was much less nervous by then

73:46

yeah you know I have to say that on on

73:50

both sessions the thing especially the

73:52

second one where his personality came

73:53

out over and over and over again if he

73:55

opened his mouth it was incredible it

73:57

was music if whether it was a vocal part

74:01

whether it was an

74:02

idea whatever it was it was boom there I

74:05

can't remember there's a there's a on

74:07

the second album there's uh some

74:09

acoustic guitar sound a recut and it was

74:13

him doing it he was in in the iso Booth

74:15

doing it and and Richard said wait wait

74:17

what why don't we do that and John said

74:20

we can and we did and but he he was in

74:23

the control room he's sitting in the I'm

74:25

Richard n at the console and he's on the

74:28

couch in front and something's going on

74:30

and he just sings out a vocal part out

74:32

of his mouth and Richard rightfully so

74:35

hold on hold on can you put that on tape

74:37

for us and we'd stop right then and do

74:40

it everything that came out of his mouth

74:42

was just brilliant would there be a time

74:44

when they'd all come in the control room

74:46

together and listen yeah all the time so

74:48

you'd have three Beatles in the control

74:50

room with you at that time that Monday

74:52

yes are you sitting there at the console

74:55

thinking no yeah most of the Beatles is

74:58

3/4 of The Beatles are right here next

75:00

to me right and I I might have still

75:02

been so nervous then that I I might have

75:05

gotten up to let somebody sit in the

75:07

center chair and you know get let them

75:08

all kind of get around to hear the

75:10

speakers properly and me me go over by

75:13

the tape machine or something you could

75:15

see though why they were the Beatles

75:17

yeah would you would you say that a fair

75:19

statement yeah especially and especially

75:22

so interesting to see John first who who

75:24

is you know cut and dried and then we go

75:28

to England to do the song that Paul and

75:30

Linda wrote for Ringo and meeting him

75:33

and let me just tell you that they were

75:34

the warmest people you could ever

75:36

imagine they were so delightful to be

75:39

with they welcomed uh Richard and I in

75:42

right away he was he was doing a video

75:44

for his was his band at the time where

75:48

the audience was a bunch of TV screens

75:51

uh and yeah you talk about that in the

75:52

book yeah and he just invited us on the

75:56

set and you know between things he's

75:58

over talking to us and you know just

76:00

having been with John who was I I can't

76:03

say he wasn't friendly as he was more

76:05

all business all business yeah just you

76:07

know the other two had been much more

76:09

friendly and talking to me and whatnot

76:11

but John was just like business that was

76:13

it and then go to Paul and see what what

76:17

he was like as a human being and you

76:20

know it's amazing because you can you

76:22

know you kind of see how you know the

76:24

element if they have the more sardonic

76:28

character with the poppier happier guy

76:30

goes together kind of reminds me of

76:32

another writing team on the Eagles on

76:35

the Eagles where you got Henley and Fry

76:39

right and they come together I mean solo

76:41

they all did great things on solos but

76:43

when they came together they made a lot

76:45

of good music well the thing about steel

76:49

Dan in particular is that they I they

76:51

are really uncopyable there's never been

76:53

anybody that's been

76:55

anywhere close to writing songs you

76:58

could never copy their style of

77:01

songwriting the the the lyrical style

77:03

the vocal delivery of it the the unique

77:08

chord structures and then you put all

77:10

those session players in there like

77:12

everything about it is so unique yeah

77:15

including his voice which I'll never

77:17

forget the first time he put a rough

77:19

vocal down uh on a on a song that he had

77:23

enough vocal to do or whatever he came

77:25

in and I had it where I thought it

77:27

belonged any it turned my voice down and

77:29

I went uh I said really you don't like

77:32

your voice he said no it's a necessary

77:35

evil when did people start using room

77:38

drum mics was that a thing of the 80s

77:40

then yeah I think pretty much so yeah um

77:44

some in excuse me some in the 70s um uh

77:49

some in the 70s but like I said that's

77:51

the reason I built a studio and my room

77:53

sound was

77:55

incredible um and uh and the funny thing

77:58

about that is people started you know

78:00

they heard something good and they'd

78:02

think that oh room sound great we'll put

78:05

room mics up and uh you probably know

78:08

this that a bad room you you'll destroy

78:10

the drum sound that's right a great room

78:12

it'll amplify and give you something

78:14

different yeah and in fact in a great

78:17

room with a mediocre drummer that

78:19

doesn't know how to tune his drums very

78:21

well and hopefully his playing is okay

78:24

uh the it can it can sound really give

78:27

you something where you know that you

78:29

wouldn't get with just the closer mics

78:32

but but uh if it's a bad sounding room

78:34

it just destroys the when I get songs to

78:37

mix and there's room mics half the time

78:40

these days or for a long time now if if

78:43

no I can do it I can do it with plugins

78:46

better than that how fast would these

78:48

guys get their sounds up if if Larry

78:51

Carlton walks in or Dean parks with

78:53

their guitar amp you just put a mic in

78:55

front of it and they're pretty much

78:56

ready to go they they would get pristine

79:00

sounds correct Steve Gad would he come

79:02

in and tune his drums right then it yeah

79:05

yeah I can't remember I was trying to

79:06

think the other day was it a rental set

79:08

or did he have him flown out and I I

79:11

don't remember I'm pretty sure it was a

79:13

rental Set uh cuz I'm pretty sure it was

79:16

a rental set but but yeah he tuned his

79:19

drums before we started okay Chuck

79:21

Rainey ba how would you record Bas back

79:24

then was direct direct only or ever ever

79:27

an amp or no well that album there was

79:29

only direct okay there was no amp during

79:31

that time in the 70s people used b15s

79:34

that was a common base amp to

79:36

use and and uh so would you record a Di

79:40

and a B15 at the same time that that and

79:42

that would be in an ISO Booth typically

79:44

yeah sometimes the studio might have a a

79:47

closet specifically you know or a

79:50

hallway or something to get the

79:52

isolation if they didn't have an actual

79:54

room for it would you put compression on

79:56

the Bas when you're tracking or was that

79:58

something that happened later yeah la

80:00

la2a probably it depends on sometimes

80:03

1176 you know if the drummer if the

80:05

drummer if the bass player uh had a very

80:08

even Bas and played very evenly not

80:11

necessarily but you know and and when

80:14

you talk about these great musicians

80:16

like that that's given that's the thing

80:19

they know you know what I but you get a

80:21

band kind of guy then you might need to

80:24

level out a lot you know a lot more and

80:27

it moves on into you know so many

80:30

records through when you know like uh

80:32

through the

80:34

80s with the musicians like the Toto

80:37

musicians before they were Toto y uh you

80:40

know Luca who who thanked me once

80:44

because he said I was he was 19 when I

80:46

hired him um those guys the thing about

80:50

those guys that's so unique is the um

80:54

the guys in in the uh 60s The Wrecking

80:57

Crew y they by and large charts were put

81:02

in front of them and they played yeah

81:04

maybe Brian Wilson would go out there

81:05

and finesse what they were doing and

81:08

maybe other people did too but by and

81:10

large it was charts and playing them and

81:13

they were all great readers and blah

81:15

blah blah you go into the 80s with that

81:17

group of musicians and it's a very

81:19

different thing they are all arrangers

81:22

in their own right they are all AR

81:24

Rangers and I have to tell you Rick that

81:28

there was nothing better than going in

81:30

on a session with those kind of guys and

81:32

watching those creative people go

81:34

together with no ego and somebody comes

81:37

up with an idea that's a great one and

81:39

somebody they try it and somebody you

81:41

know that's pretty good but what about

81:42

this oh let's try that and watching

81:45

these guys put this put the track

81:47

together yeah because it was by and

81:49

large chord charts yeah it was it was

81:51

not being told what to do it's

81:53

interesting cuz today

81:55

for the for that contribution they would

81:58

be songwriters on the on the tracks

82:01

right nowadays that that's if you

82:03

contribute if you took Steve lukather's

82:05

part on human nature or you know the his

82:09

guitar riff that he did oh well people

82:12

would argue for songwriting credit for

82:14

something like that because it actually

82:15

is really take that out and that muted

82:19

guitar part he's playing in the verse

82:20

and the lines that he's playing

82:22

everything is become incredible

82:24

important to the song but this they were

82:26

expected to do that Steve said that to

82:28

me when I interviewed him we were

82:29

expected to be Rangers yeah and it's

82:32

interesting without naming any names

82:33

there were some really really good

82:35

guitar players that didn't have that

82:37

gift yeah you know that might not do

82:39

what what a Luca would I um Love is the

82:44

answer I don't know if you remember that

82:45

hit by um uh England Dan and John for

82:48

Coley the producer Kyle lenning I I

82:52

mixed uh that and he was telling me when

82:55

I mixed it that he he was overdubbing

82:58

Steve on some other songs on that record

83:01

and Steve said you know you got anything

83:03

else for me and he said not really he

83:05

said well I'll play you this the single

83:07

but I think it's done and he played it

83:08

for him and Steve said no no no I want

83:10

to play on that and if you listen back

83:12

to it now there's a guitar part that you

83:14

would how how could it have lived

83:15

without that guitar part right and he

83:18

just put it right in that that's a great

83:19

example of that the kind of stuff that

83:21

he and a lot of guys would do that kind

83:23

of thing how would mixing a record in

83:26

the 80s let's say later 80s

83:29

differ from the 70s you started having

83:33

consoles that would have flying faders

83:36

yeah was that a big thing or did you not

83:37

like did you not mix on SSL consoles

83:40

what what would you do the first was

83:42

called knam the first moving fader

83:43

system that NE came up with was called

83:45

knam y I absolutely hated it the faders

83:48

were real stodgy really tough to move

83:51

and it wasn't super accurate it really

83:53

wasn't you know you you could do that I

83:56

don't know if the camera is getting that

83:57

you could do that and it would play it

83:59

back like that so you know not that you

84:02

would do that in a mix but I mean it

84:03

just showed you I'll back up for one

84:05

second one of the greatest stories I

84:07

ever heard about what Steely Dan could

84:09

put someone through mixing Elliot told

84:12

me this I don't know what album it was

84:13

but it was knam so it might have been

84:17

Asia they they they loved it because the

84:20

the computer you could do what you want

84:23

and then they play it back in the

84:24

computer did it now I'm here to tell you

84:26

that from my standpoint it wasn't

84:27

accurate but as long as they think it is

84:30

fine that's fine that's fine so on one

84:32

pass I don't know if it was Donald or

84:34

Walter told Elliot okay Elliot on this

84:37

pass and remember they go through the

84:39

whole song but on this pass I want you

84:41

to put your finger I don't know what

84:42

instrument was on that fader and just

84:45

think about moving

84:46

it now if they had done that to me there

84:50

would have been screaming

84:52

involved screaming and yelling

84:54

you out of your mind I can't even but

84:58

anyway so that early system was very

85:00

stodgy and I didn't like it whatever

85:03

whatever uh later on I built my studio

85:05

and and as like I said I mixed you know

85:09

uh and I'm extremely uncoordinated

85:11

everywhere in this lifetime except on a

85:14

console with faders and I it's like you

85:17

know it's easy peasy and it just like

85:20

works great but when we got to 48 tracks

85:24

46 really when we got to tying two 24

85:27

tracks together it was time to I needed

85:30

help and so absolutely so I bought

85:33

George massenberg my good friend

85:35

massenberg moving fader system which at

85:37

the time was the best one I had to learn

85:39

to let it help me because here I was I

85:42

really didn't want the help but I now

85:43

know I needed it I had to learn to do it

85:46

which I did it took a while but I did

85:47

learn how to do it and and then it

85:50

became my friend and which was very

85:52

fortunate because now on Pro Tools uh

85:56

you know that's the only way to do it

85:57

and so I made the transition very well

85:59

and now I'm thrilled with it but yeah so

86:01

that's what happened went went to uh SSL

86:05

you see when they came out they had they

86:08

and that's the re the first reason I

86:09

didn't like them I didn't care for the

86:10

sound of the early ones the second

86:12

reason

86:14

was their automation system was all VCA

86:18

and meaning internal voltage controlled

86:21

amplifiers which the faders didn't move

86:23

and I would relate to that right I want

86:26

to I want to see what I just did or what

86:28

I'm about to do so but even when they

86:31

finally came out with moving faders and

86:33

I was forced and I was literally

86:35

sometimes forced to do a a a mix on an

86:39

SSL uh at least now the faders were

86:42

moving so it was a little bit better for

86:45

me what are the best sounding mic PR

86:48

that you historically would use if you

86:50

if if you said to me Rick these are the

86:53

best Mike PR ever made what what are

86:55

they okay we start with the fact that

86:57

this Doug Sachs again that one of my

86:59

three mentors that I owe so much of my

87:02

career to taught me so much about

87:04

Electronics uh and how it's implemented

87:07

in the audio world and the first thing

87:09

is less is more meaning in analog in

87:12

yeah in audio and analog audio the less

87:15

you go through the more you get out the

87:17

other end I took that to the nth degree

87:20

when I built the studio with when we

87:22

built the console we built the simplest

87:23

console so we could build because I knew

87:25

that would sound better than anything

87:26

you could buy as I always said when I

87:29

would give a tour of the studio there's

87:31

more amplifiers in one SSL module than

87:34

there is in this entire

87:36

console uh so it was as simple as it

87:38

could be and then the um great sounding

87:42

room great tube microphones you get the

87:45

most sound out the other end and so what

87:47

I always wanted was the purest sound I

87:49

started with that studio where I did

87:52

Asian hanana with a homemade console

87:53

that sounded

87:55

excellent and I wanted how do I get the

87:59

best of that well Doug as it turns out

88:01

uh after that thma record he started

88:04

doing more and more design and he

88:06

designed line level microphones where

88:08

there's no Transformers in them based

88:10

off the my favorite microphone of the

88:13

251 based off the capsule in that he

88:16

also designed which was really his

88:18

brother's designed but he designed a

88:20

preamp and so in my studio

88:25

uh then the those I have I did all the

88:28

listening tests for a company called

88:30

martek that built a excellent sounding

88:32

transistor preamp maybe the purest one

88:36

of that and as a thank you for I did all

88:39

the listening while they designed the

88:41

Transformer they gave me 24 of them and

88:43

I had 24 of ma of those 20 uh mastering

88:46

lab out in the studio because out in the

88:49

studio because line level loses less

88:52

than Mike lines do so the microphones so

88:55

and the console had two line inputs one

88:57

for the tape machine or Protools and the

89:01

second one for the line level

89:02

microphones which were either the

89:04

Sheffield mics or the preamps in the uh

89:07

that were out there if you were to ask

89:09

me that I would say the the the

89:11

mastering lab preamps and because mine

89:14

have the other Transformer they're a

89:15

little better than the others but those

89:17

would be the very very best and again my

89:20

criteria was colorless right now if you

89:23

want color

89:24

and we do my idea was you get them you

89:26

know less is more let's get the

89:27

colorless we can add the color there's

89:30

plenty of boxes or these days uh plugins

89:33

that will do that but you can't go the

89:36

other way right you can't you can't take

89:37

it away can't take it away you you get

89:39

whatever you get okay for color what are

89:41

things that you like well there's all

89:43

kinds you know my gosh where do you

89:44

start uh that DW Fern I don't know if

89:47

you know their stuff yeah yeah that's

89:49

that's he makes some of the most

89:50

gorgeous colored stuff but you know all

89:53

the old

89:55

um all of the old preamps you know from

89:58

the 60s that the tube ones with the

89:59

incredible Transformers you know you get

90:02

all kinds of incredible color like that

90:04

so you know there's Myriad okay and

90:08

microphones if uh if I said you know

90:10

things that were available from the 80s

90:12

on or so what are what are the

90:14

best uh small diaphragm

90:17

condensers the nyman 50 Series 53 which

90:21

was Omni 54 which uh is card oid 55

90:24

which has a roll off M50 the 50s uh

90:29

which are the omnis that everyone uses

90:31

almost everyone uses in the DECA tree

90:33

for orchestras that whole series uh are

90:37

to me the best I had a huge collection

90:41

I'm selling them off now but I have a

90:42

huge collection of those because I do

90:44

believe them to be the best and the

90:47

other one that I really love in large

90:49

diaphragm uh my two favorites are um the

90:54

the tel funkin 251 or the AKG C12 y I

90:58

had nine

90:59

251s so so many that I don't know if

91:03

you've ever seen put them on a drum set

91:05

I did okay if you ever look at Jeff

91:07

picaro's uh uh instructional video uh I

91:11

I had because I had nine I had three of

91:14

them padded internally so they could

91:16

take the level because stock they

91:17

couldn't yeah and they were only allowed

91:19

on a very few drummers and on because

91:22

you knew he would not hit them exactly

91:24

it was only on the vest Pros that I knew

91:26

wouldn't hit him and in the

91:28

instructional video you see them very

91:30

clearly I remember that actually which I

91:32

did and uh you know you'll see comments

91:36

where they say those aren't real 251s

91:38

nobody would do that and I remember I

91:41

woke up one day and said you know you're

91:42

playing with fire here why you know

91:44

anybody could have an accident so I to

91:46

had the pads taken out and whatnot okay

91:48

so the 251s or the C2 the c12s and what

91:51

else and Norman uh the you know I love

91:54

the m49 which you know and it's really

91:57

funny because not enough Engineers love

91:59

that microphone and yet I can't tell you

92:01

how many singers that I turned on to it

92:03

you know that have their own uh Neil

92:06

Diamond Barbara stran huie Lewis they

92:08

all have their own m49 and I've always

92:11

figured you know it's not as open as

92:14

some Engineers might like and I figure

92:16

you know it's got a incredible warmth

92:18

and presence to it and you know how uh

92:21

when you hear your voice recorded it's

92:24

that's not how I sound because you don't

92:26

have the Resonance of your head that you

92:28

hear when you're talking and I think

92:30

that when they hear their voice back it

92:33

that sounds like them it sounds more

92:34

like them and they can relate to it

92:36

better but I love that microphone for

92:38

that reason you know the u67 and more

92:41

over the the

92:43

269 um I don't know if you know the

92:45

history of that microphone but when

92:46

noyman came out with their new large

92:49

diaphragm microphone to replace in their

92:51

minds the 47 m they changed it to a new

92:54

tube they came up with a new amplifier

92:57

and everything and everything well when

92:58

they showed it to German broad their

93:00

country's broadcast company that they

93:02

said no you need to do this for us we

93:05

want we want you to use the same tube

93:08

that's in the 50 Series the little mini

93:10

tube the ac701 we want you to use that

93:13

and we also want for television we want

93:15

remote pattern so that if we want to

93:18

change the pattern from cardioid to Omni

93:20

to whatever uh somebody can do it off

93:22

camera Asos to the 67 which you did that

93:25

on on around the microphone and so they

93:28

made the

93:30

269 uh which there weren't anywhere near

93:32

is made but back that other amplifier to

93:35

me sounds better than a u67 the u67 is

93:38

really good the 269 is a little gooder

93:41

those microphones those nyans first of

93:43

all the km you know 5354 those

93:46

microphones now you've have you gotten

93:49

rid of all those bill you still have

93:51

some of those M I still have some okay

93:53

what about things like if I said one

93:56

EQ that that that you know you think is

94:00

one of the best eqs outboard eqs made I

94:03

guess I'll go with the eqp1a in case

94:05

George massenberg watches this uh his

94:08

his early early multiband thing that he

94:11

did in in Stereo was uh you know was

94:15

outstanding yeah but but the ptech

94:17

though that the yeah ptech yeah the tube

94:20

and again because I mean I'm a huge

94:22

believer in tubes with trans producers

94:24

speakers microphones there's just

94:27

something about them uh and you know are

94:30

they as are they as fast as no tubes are

94:33

never going to be as fast as as you know

94:35

the funny story about that go with

94:37

regard to the microphones I did a short

94:39

my my break into the business was was uh

94:43

Clive Davis giving me a shot and I had

94:46

to I went to I had work in the CBS St

94:49

had to join the union and worked in the

94:51

CBS Studio well the old guys there that

94:54

were probably 20 years younger than I am

94:57

uh they uh the

94:58

u67 uh the u87 had just come out and I

95:03

was told that noyman Engineers came over

95:05

and presented it to the engineers there

95:07

and said you know youa loves this

95:09

microphone and d and so when they

95:12

checked back with him after several

95:14

months the the engineers said the older

95:17

guys all said we like the 67 better I

95:22

what what were you talking well it just

95:24

seems smoother and not as edgy and they

95:26

said no no no no this is transistor and

95:29

the rise time is much faster than the

95:31

tube you are hearing for the first time

95:34

what's really going on out in the studio

95:36

and they went oh and they continued to

95:39

use the

95:39

67 because I'm sorry it sounds better

95:43

and it does uh but yes you know so yeah

95:46

rise time you know same thing with power

95:49

amps you know you know a tube Power Amp

95:52

it might not be as fast on the the

95:54

bottom you know whatever but it's still

95:57

you know anyway I'm a big fan of to and

95:59

what about compressor what's the what's

96:01

your favorite compressor boy that's

96:03

that's a lot tougher for me um because

96:06

you know well the go-to would have to

96:08

still be if you on an island and you

96:09

could only take one I would have to

96:11

still probably take the la2a it'd be a

96:14

toss it between that and 1176 but uh but

96:19

if I was on a desert island I probably

96:20

wouldn't be pushing all four buttons in

96:22

to get it to distort on the drums would

96:24

I so yeah l2a probably I just go with

96:27

tried and true and who's the loudest

96:30

singer you ever recorded I don't know

96:32

her name it was a girl that was 17 years

96:35

old uh and it was Abraham laborel the

96:39

bass player yeah it was a family friend

96:42

that was trying to get into uh uh I

96:46

don't I might it might have been juliart

96:47

I don't know but as an opera singer okay

96:50

and I cannot tell you what was coming

96:54

out of that little girl's mouth

96:56

interesting question what was the

96:57

loudest well I'm just wondering you know

96:59

how loud some of these singers are is

97:01

Barbara strand a loud singer no not at

97:03

all and what Mike is a is a great M like

97:07

I said she has her own now and what will

97:09

Donald Fagan sing through I don't know

97:11

because I didn't do the vocals so I

97:12

don't know what he liked what do you

97:15

think of uh of SM SS for radio right no

97:19

that's an excellent you know I this is

97:22

gets you know and for for me this gets

97:24

used a lot for rock singers I use it all

97:26

the time yeah absolutely and uh best

97:29

all-around microphone is there one I

97:32

don't you know I wouldn't know how to

97:33

answer that there it's sm57 I I'd rather

97:36

have this than okay because a 57 doesn't

97:38

sound that good on a voice right but

97:40

this does Bill it's such a pleasure to

97:43

have you here check out Bill's book

97:45

chairman at the board It's a Wonderful

97:49

book and uh has such interesting stories

97:52

in it and uh I really appreciate you

97:54

spending the time I love telling stories

97:56

in fact at one point in my life um I had

97:59

a previous wife and I went through the

98:01

divorce and I had just mixed um up where

98:04

we belong the song of that song and

98:07

Taylor hackford was the director and uh

98:10

I I mixed the song for him and uh I

98:14

thought you know i' maybe going through

98:17

the divorce and everything maybe I

98:18

should I always thought maybe I could

98:20

direct movies CU I love telling stories

98:22

and I lik all the mechanical things and

98:25

uh so I I I talked to him on the phone

98:28

afterwards and I said you know I would

98:29

love to ghost you sometime you know on a

98:31

movie from as much as you'll let me be

98:33

there and he said well let me think

98:35

about it never heard from him

98:37

again so back to back to music well Bill

98:41

thank you so much really appreciate it

98:43

it's been my pleasure and honor to be

98:45

here thanks

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