"TIME OUT!" Alan Dershowitz And Mustafa Barghouti Debate Aaron Bushnell and Israel-Hamas

well pressure is again intensifying on

Israel after US vice president kamla

Harris called for a ceasefire in Gaza

and rebuked the humanitarian catastrophe

there opinions on the war are sharply

divided in America Israel's most

important Ally a fact lay bare by the

death of us Amon Aaron bushnel last week

the 25-year-old set himself a light

outside the Israeli Embassy in

Washington DC shouting free Palestine

and declaring he would no longer be

complicit in genocide well presidential

candidate Dr Cornell West stood up

controversy by posting the following to

X let us ever forget the extraordinary

courage and commitment of brother Aaron

Bushnell who died for truth and Justice

I pray for his precious loved ones let

us rededicate ourselves to genuine

solidarity with Palestinians undergoing

genocidal attacks in real time well many

Jewish commentators said Dr West

comments encourage political violence by

those oppos to Israel's existence but

joining me now to discuss his

controversial post is the independent

president candidate Professor Cornell

West Cornell great to see you thank you

very much for coming back on uncensored

um always a blessing to being

conversation with you my brother and the

feeling is is very mutual let me just

just ask you many people were pretty

surprised by the tone of your uh of your

Tweet not least the fact that you would

categorize what Aaron bushnel did as

extraordinary courage and commitment uh

many people think it was the act of

somebody quite possibly

very seriously mentally ill taking his

life in dramatic circumstances and that

that was not necessarily consistent with

being courageous or

committed well one is that U you think

of ko the younger when he killed himself

as the Roman Empire began to emerge and

the Roman Republic was collapsing and

Ko's killing of himself has become one

of the grand examples of moral courage

and a willingness to Bear witness as to

something that he deeply opposed now I

think it's very interesting that so many

of the people who were critical of me

talking about the courage of my dear

brother Aaron that they don't understand

the depths and scope of the suffering

right now in Gaza and too many of them

actually are even indifferent to the

genocide they're indifferent to the

ethnic cleansing they're indifferent to

the apar like conditions and so I can

understand them saying well I am

promoting violence by acknowledging the

tremendous courage in to engage in a

moral witness in which you kill yourself

as a way of calling attention not to

yourself but to suffering of precious

Palestinians in Gaza that's what Aaron

was doing in the same way Kato was doing

the same thing when they saw Julius

Caesar moving into the highest position

and it was clear that the Republic was

coming to a close and the empire was

being established and there's a whole

host of examples of people who bear

Witness by killing themselves let me ask

you this suicide no that's not the point

it's the cause that they are bearing

witness to and that's where my

difference with so many of my deeply

conservative and and moderate Jewish

brothers and sisters comes in if they're

indifferent to the suffering in Gaza

then it's going to be difficult for me

even have a conversation because for me

it's a state of emergency for me we need

a sense of urgency this these massacres

are taking place before our very eyes we

ought to be on fire we ought to be

deeply concerned let me ask you this

would you have said the same thing if

this Airman had killed himself in this

manner outside the Palestinian Embassy

in Washington DC if there is one

whatever the the uh central location is

for Palestinians in Washington the day

after October the 7th and reversed it

and said I'm doing this in response to

the horror committed by Hamas on Jewish

people in Israel would you have felt the

same way about what

happened oh absolutely murder is murder

though brother that when you kill

innocent people when you kill civilians

those are crimes against humanity now I

have a larger indictment of Israeli apar

I have a larger indictment of the

Israeli occupation of Palestinians but

anytime any organized group kills

innocent people especially innocent

children I will be in opposition that's

true for US troops that's true for

British troops that's true for the IDF

that's true for Iranian troops that's

true for Chinese troops that's true for

Indian troops any

organized Army that kills innocent

people especially children

for me is murder I'm morally consistent

in that regard and that therefore if

somebody kills themselves in order to

call attention to the suffering of

precious innocent people especially

precious innocent children I am going to

acknowledge that courage and say it's

wrong it's wrong it's wrong and I don't

mind being morally consistent and

therefore having people thoroughly

misunderstand me because I do not look

at the world through a narrow set of

ideological lens I try to stay in

contact with the humanity of all

innocent people and all children no

matter what color Palestinian Israeli

Ethiopian Guatemalan I fundamentally

believe that a Palestinian baby has the

same value as an Israeli baby the

problem is you and I know that if

Palestinians were doing this to

Israelis

Biden Harris blinkin all of these folks

who are enabling this genocide enabling

these crimes against humanity they would

have a very different view because

they're not morally consistent they

don't believe that a Palestinian life

has the same value as an Israeli I

certainly do but I certainly think I

certainly do but I also believe that the

the purest definition of genocide is

hamas's view of uh Jewish people in

Israel they want to get rid of all of

them they've made it very clear publicly

since October the 7th that they want to

commit that kind of atrocity again and

again and again and just get rid of all

jewi people in Israel that actually is

the purest definition of genocide isn't

it well genocide has to do with intent

as well as execution would you accept

the

Hamas when Hamas was founded in

1988 as a response to vious Israeli

occupation they were wrong they were

calling for the forms of violent

resistance that too often did include

killing innocent folk because of course

innocent Palestinians had been killed

for 75 years by the IDF and others they

did change their Charter there's been

struggles within the Hamas itself and

the Palestinian people themselves

are how would you put it the Palestinian

people themselves are resisting with

tremendous dignity and Hamas has emerged

as a major institutional vehicle and

that institutional vehicles for me does

involve crimes against humanity when

they kill innocent Folk they've em let's

be clear let's be clear they've emerged

as a terrorist terrorist organization

committing acts of mass terrorism I mean

that's what they are know Hamas is a

counterterrorist group responding to the

terrorism of the IDF and responding to

the terrorism of the Israeli State a

counterterrorist group can inv can can

can commit war crimes brother but they

they didn't initiate it at all if

they're founded in

1988 and the terrorism began in 1948

with the state of Israel that's 40 whole

years let's keep in mind I think it's a

stretch to

call undermine the PLO undermine secular

nationalism promote fundamentalist Islam

as a way of dividing Palestinians that's

why Nathan yahu allowed for Gaza allowed

for Hamas to gain to gain access to the

money from Qatar and others keep the

Palestinians divided and therefore not

having to move to deal with the West

there are look there are many things

that we would find agreement on about

the way Palestinians have been treated

for a very long time it has been a

completely unacceptable occupation

should

not but hang on hang on let me I know

let me finish but the idea that you

categorize Hamas after October 7th as

counter terrorists is ridiculous they

are terrorists and they should be called

what they are anyway let me ask you do

do you think the IDF is terrorist when

they kill innocent Palestinians do you

believe I it depends yes or no my

brother yes or no well okay I I would

ask you this if you yes or no yes or no

hang on you're uncensored you're

uncensored my brother and I've been

asked this question before I have

actually tweeted in 2014 I tweeted that

what Israel was doing then was bordering

on terrorism I'm not afraid of using

that analogy bordering on terrorism the

children are being killed right yes of

course they were children killed on

October the 7th I have serious

misgivings about what's happening

currently in Gaza like most people but

what I would say to you if you were the

head of the Israeli government on

October the 7th out of Interest what

would your response have been to that

horrendous terror attack well I I'll

tell you the answer to that question but

I don't know why you just can't say the

IDF is terrorist killers and innocent

people bordering on it it's wrong no

what why you're uncensored you're a free

man tell the truth from your soul tell

let me tell you what I would what I

would do if I was in Israel I would any

occupation I would end The Siege I would

saying I'm committed to Palestinian

dignity I'm committed to Palestinian

equality and we Palestinians and

Israelis we Jews and and and and and

Palestinians we're going to learn how to

live together in the context of equality

and dignity we're going to have Jewish

safety we're going to have Jewish

security that's the very end and aim of

Israel we never see an annihilation of

Jews we'll never see another Massacre or

holy caust of Jews but we'll never see

an ation and and Massacre and and and

and and and and and vicious attacks on

Palestinians either that's what I would

do not just head of Israel that's what

I'll do in the White House brother

that's what I'll do in the white house

and I'll explain to American people why

it is that Biden and Harris and others

continue to enable this genocide and

then when they finally say ceasefire

they act like they ought we ought to

give them a moral Prize or something

after 30,000 precious people have

already been killed yeah listen there's

a lot that you say that I agree with

just to be clear okay no no I I hear you

I hear you okay I just want to read you

what Ben Shapiro said about your Tweet

though about Aaron Bushnell he said our

political environment is facilitating

dangerous Insanity it is easy enough for

people like Cornell West to celebrate

the pseudo heroism of disturbed people

lighting themselves on fire but both the

mentally Disturbed in our society pay

the price for such celebration I mean he

has a point doesn't he you wouldn't want

other people to go and set fire to

themselves

and kill themselves like he did would

you brother I have deep libertarian

sensibilities I believe that people make

choice and they have to take

responsibilities they make decisions

they have to deal with the consequences

I do not promote people killing

themselves not at all but people do a

number of different things I would want

to ask brother Shapiro he's talking

about there's heroes in the Israeli

Defense Forces many of whom are killing

innocent children do do I think that's

sick yes that is morally bankrupt it is

spiritually empty it is ethically

vacuous I come right back at Shapiro

Your Heroes happen to be engaging in

Terrorist activity against Palestinians

and he and you're gonna say Aaron's not

a hero Aaron is a particular person who

exercised a certain kind of witness and

ended up taking the form of killing

himself in order not to bring attention

to himself but to try to give some of

urgency for a genocide do you do you

believe that's what brother super want

to focus on do you believe wants hide

his indifference to the suffering of

Palestinians in the form of attacking

let me ask you how cowardly can you get

my brother do you believe that Aaron

bushnel is a

martyr well martyr and witness really

have the same uh root as you know in the

Greek uh and Martyr means someone who

pays an ultimate cost tied to a higher

cause I believe trying to bring

attention to genocide and bring genocide

to a close is a higher cause and I

believe that his actions was trying to

bring attention to that higher cause so

yes he is a martyr absolutely Dr West uh

always good to talk to you on uncensor

thank blessing stay strong my brother

would you be out to debate all this is

legal scholar and author of war against

the Jews Professor Alan dwizz and the

leader of the Palestinian national

initiative Mustafa barouti well welcome

to both of you um Alan dotz your

response there to Dr West in particular

categorization of Aaron bushnel as a

Marty for setting himself on fire and

and taking his own life in protest what

he said was the genocide of Palestinians

in

Gaza if anybody is going to be a mod

they should take their lives and protest

of hamama using precious children as

human shields uh using a child as a

human shield putting a child a hospital

a school a mosque over Hamas Fighters

and tunnels and other uh weapons that

are used to kill precious Jewish

children is the major reason why so many

civilians particularly so many children

and women have been killed by the way

there is a lower ratio of civilians to

combatants that have been killed in Gaza

than in any Modern Warfare according to

even the Hamas statistics and if you

compare them to the number of people

combatants who have been killed the

ratio is approximately one and a half to

one which is three or four to one the

problem with the problem with that

analogy is that when you actually get

into the statistics and let's accept

this is the Palestinian health authority

it's Hamas run uh but this the numbers

have not been challenged uh as being you

know wildly inaccurate by any other body

but more I'm accepting them for the

moment yeah so more more children have

been killed as a percentage of Civilian

deaths than any other type of conflict

of this nature in Modern Times And the

reason for that is that Gaza Gaza has

two million people of which a million

just over half are under 18 so it's

become de facto a Slaughter of children

that's the problem

well REM remember that Gaza that Hamas

counts anybody under 19 as a child Hamas

recruits children between the ages of 13

and 19 to be terrorists so buy you can't

you can't buy a beer Alan you can't buy

a beer in many American states if you're

under 21 so the definition of what is a

child I

mean but a 19-year-old is not a child a

19-year-old with a gun pointed at an

Israeli who was shot is not a child a

woman who was throwing a bomb at

Israelis is not a child remember too

that my dear friend Cornell also said

that the terrorism by Israel started in

1948 in 1948 Israel was prepared to

accept the two-state solution in a tiny

little State and they were attacked by

all the Arab armies and they fought in

self-defense but Cornell West revealed

his bias against Israel by suggesting

that Israel's terrorism began when it

fought for its own independence and

essentially he's calling for the end of

Israel if he's saying that its

illegitimacy started in 19 in

1948 uh and and and you know the idea

that Israel is committing genocide when

it has actually done everything in its

power to minimize civilian casualties in

the face of Hamas doing everything in

its power to maximize civilian

casualties Israel should do more and the

United States should pressure pressure

Israel to do more and Israel has done

more the number of civilians killed in

the last month is far less than in

previous months because Israel is now in

a position where it can take more

refined action more specific actions

there are criticism is valid but calling

Israel genocide a word coined to

describe the murder of six million

innocent Jews in gas Chambers is a form

of Holocaust denial and it's an absolute

disgrace to use that term genocide

against a country that's simply trying

to defend itself from a recurrence of

October 7th what Israel is doing is what

America has done what Great Britain has

done what France has done but only

Israel is called genocide okay let me

just play a clip before I come to you

Mustafa buti bti clip from Kamala Harris

Vice President of the United States this

was

overnight

given the immense scale of suffering in

Gaza there must be an immediate

ceasefire for at least the next six

weeks which is what is currently on the

table so Mustafa bouti um we'll come to

what she said there about a call for a

ceasefire but in response to Alan

dtz there's a real debate raging about

whether what is happening in Gaza

constitutes genocide what is your view

well I am not surprised at all Mr Morgan

that Mr dtz your guest is defending the

murderous Israeli Army because he's used

he's famous for defending murderers in

American courts I think he's used to

that he's even famous for

defending six traffickers like

shipin and of course he will defend

those who are committing can we get to

the point instead of having

homs I say let me let me I have to say

Meers lawyers lawyers defend people who

they often may personally have serious

issues with there's nothing unusual

about a lawyer Palestinians I've

defended terrorists I have defended

people defended yeah yeah you can finish

but if you're going to

go if you're going to attack him for for

defending bad people we're going to be

here so stick to the question uh I uh I

would even defend you I would defend

your right to make the lies that you've

said if you don't want me to speak can

you shut up so that I can speak shut up

please I want to say that what you see

in Gaza now is an act of genocide

because 12,000 children have been killed

and these are not 19 years old these are

5 six years old and 3 years old and 2

years old these are children for God's

sake

I am against the killing of 30 Israeli

children which happened on the 7th of

October because they are children and

civilians but nothing in the world could

justify because of the killing of 30

children the killing of 12,000 other

Palestinian children that is

unacceptable I am you should look at at

the real

figures 30,000 Palestinian civilians

have been killed and 72,000 people have

been injured by the Israeli Mur all

together this is

4.5% of the population hold on hold on I

did not interrupt you so shut up and let

me finish 4.5% of the population of Gaza

have been killed or injured if that had

happened in the United States of America

you would be talking about 12 million

people killed or injured in four months

of time is that acceptable and mostly

civilians 70% are civilians more than

that Israel is kill killing Palestinians

not only with this terrible genocide

with their bombardment they are killing

Palestinians with starvation this

terrible Siege 50,000 pregnant women

Palestinian women don't find a place to

give birth in 64,000 breastfeeding women

cannot help their babies and more than

that 700,000 people are now starving

because Israel is preventing milk flour

food to the population of Gaza City and

the north of Gaza and more than that

they shoot the Palestinian hungry people

when they are trying to get some food

okay Mr and killed them like they did

two days

ago 100 people and 860 others were

injured so my response to you yes this

is genocide these are three war crimes

happening at the same time genocide

Collective punishment and ethnic

cleansing at the same time 70% % of all

homes were destroyed all universities

were destroyed 30 hospitals out of 36

hospitals were destroyed

347 of my colleagues medical

doctors let me just Alan Das let me just

ask what is that if it is not genocide

Alan dasis you can respond but I want

you also Alan just just quickly I want

to also mention again Kam Harris calling

for a six week ceasefire this is what is

being negotiated but Hamas can't even

apparently say where the remaining

hostages are which seems to be a massive

barrier to any any potential deal here

so first of all your reaction to that

and then respond to Mr

barouti well I think the deal is on the

table Israel has accepted it the Hamas

has refused to give the names of the

hostages and if they would give the

names of the hostages we could have a

deal I want to ask Mr barui if he wants

to talk about another War crime are you

prepared now to condemn Hamas for using

children as human shields for using

women as human Shields are you prepared

now to condemn that war crime don't this

is a lie they don't you you you deny it

a li everybody in the world is wrong

they don't hide behind children it's not

true they don't use any it's a lie you

are repeating I

don't you ask me I will answer you do

you don't want me to answer your

question it's a lie there's no human Shi

never use Shield ever huh no it's a lie

because it is it is let me answer it is

an Israeli propaganda and if you look

carefully and you are a famous and

well-known lawyer I don't doubt that but

I want you to look at the facts for me

for me Anna Frank the little Jewish

child who was killed by

Nazis is not different from hend rajab

who is a Palestinian child 6 years old

who was stuck in a car with six of her

family members killed by the Israeli

tanks screaming and asking for help and

instead of helping her they bombarded

the ambulance that came to help her and

answering the question do they use human

Shields or Frank and H are the same no

no no no what what human shield she was

in a car surrounded by tanks I'm talking

isra K talking for me she's a victim of

children na behavior I'm not changing

the subject start to see you're changing

the subject no

no let me let me let me let me ask a

question Mr Mr bti let me ask a question

Mr bouti you say that the Hamas never

use civilians as human shields in which

case why do they build this Labyrinth of

tunnels around schools and hospitals and

all the places where civilians are going

to be why would they do that

no the question is not like that the

question is why Israel continued to Gaza

which is only which wait wait wait the

Gaza is only wait a minute Gaza is 140

squar miles with three with 2.3 million

people where should people go why do

they hang on you're avoiding my question

besides the fact that it was occupied

for such a long time let me repeat where

would they go how could they fight rep

strikes that are killing them

around I mean you're you're asking them

you're asking me a

question ask question and I will you

finish question if Hamas does not want

to use civilians as human Shields why do

they build tunnels around schools and

hospitals first of all you are again Mr

you Mr Morgan you are again repeating

Israel propaganda it's not propaganda

the footage that hospitals were bu that

tunnels were under hospitals wait wait

let me finish you asked the question let

me answer it's not true what they say

and yes they build tunnels to hide from

Israeli air strikes of course like

Vietnamese built tunnels to hide from

American bombardment in Vietnam it's the

same but that to say that they are

taking people civilians as hostage as as

as as Shields is not true wait a minute

I see Hamas fighters on Al jazer Network

attacking Israeli tanks without with

very little weapons I don't see them

hiding behind the I have proof that I'd

like you to listen to I

have

is speak Please

Mr mrti let Alan d respond let Alan DWI

respond

okay here is in my book the ca the war

against the Jews inter I quote directly

I quote directly from a leader of Hamas

praising the use of human Shields he

says we regard our women and our

children as Martyrs we use them as human

Shields this is Hamas bragging about the

use of human Shields bragging why they