Trump on trial: New York vs. Donald Trump Day 9 Highlights

back following developments from inside

the courthouse of Donald Trump's hush

money trial and Michael Cohen's former

Banker Gary Pharaoh is still under

cross-examination by Trump's attorney

Todd blanch NBC's Von hilard is at that

courthouse for us what's the latest

Von right now Todd Blan is currently

cross-examining Gary phoh that former

First Republic Banker who set up that

LLC account for Michael Cohen in late

October of 2016 and then effectively

wire transferred the

$130,000 payment to the attorney

representing Stormy Daniels and under

this cross-examination Todd blanch is

asking very specific questions about the

relationship that they perceived Michael

Cohen to have with Donald Trump number

one that they never heard him directly

talk about Trump and that he Michael

Cohen had told the bank that he was

working not as an actor for anybody else

and then even in January of 2017

the defensive team is trying to get at

the fact that the bank did not take take

Michael Cohen too seriously as it

extended to his relationship with the uh

newly sworn in president Trump in

January of 2017 asking under Bank

regulations that uh one client must must

attest to them being a politically

exposed person if they are setting up an

account and Michael Cohen did not fit

that designation in their books so what

the defense team is essentially doing is

making the case that they did not view

Michael Cohen as somebody who is working

too directly align with Donald Trump but

was working independently from

him Danny Let's uh get your reaction to

this latest reporting yeah I mean this

is the Gary phoh testimony is going

along kind of the way I expected it

would I mean if you cross-examine Gary

phoh and I'm thinking about you know

Todd blanch and we have an idea what

areas he's exploring I mean you can go

after pharaoh and say Hey you were

sloppy hey you should have seen some red

flags I don't really know what that

advances for the defense uh in a way

Pharaoh is good for the people but there

are some pluses for the defense at well

as well and I wonder you know looking

back they may have brought this out but

the people probably should have focused

on this if they did I I'm not sure they

may have focused on this in their direct

but brought out that hey Donald Trump

wasn't anywhere to be seen in these

transactions with Cohen they don't

really need pharaoh to establish if

Trump was there or not there they'll use

other Witnesses for that but the key is

the parts that Pharaoh has been key on

is this transaction from Cohen to

Davidson it's there it's undeniable

they've proven that element of their

case so I mean whatever uh Headway

defense makes on cross-examination of

Gary phoh and they will they'll make the

point that Trump wasn't anywhere near

this transaction at least as far as

Pharaoh saw uh but the people know they

have to Shore that up and build their

case and bring in other W witnesses to

tie in Cohen to Trump and Trump's hands

on this I expect that's why we're going

to see opix maybe some other Witnesses

who may or may not have heard or seen

something that would tie Trump to this

transaction and we're just getting word

that the testimony of Gary faroh has

just wrapped up as far as this

cross-examination they've moved into

redirect we'll keep an eye and see what

that looks like but but Charles AR Lisa

Rubin in the court said it did seem like

Trump's lawyer was trying to use pharaoh

to paint Cohen as a liar somebody who

deceived the bank deceived others and so

clearly they're establishing him as more

of a a a solo operator is that an

effective

strategy well it could be if the jury's

going to buy It ultimately what you're

trying to do to Danny's earlier point is

disconnect or put Donald Trump as far

away from these transactions as possible

and make it so that it's almost as

though these people acted perhaps on

Trump's behalf or to his benefit but

without his knowledge or without his

instruction and I think that part of the

strategy here has to be quite frankly

that you don't make your Witnesses

likable you don't make the prosecution's

witnesses likable you make them seem a

little sleazy I expect them to try and

throw some mud on Stormy Daniels I

expect them to try to throw some mud on

Michael Cohen so that these are not

likable people so that it all seems as

though you guys are pretty much all

without Clean Hands and therefore it's

not necessarily fair or just to convict

Donald Trump when everybody here sort of

had either bad motives or was involved

in a way that they shouldn't have been

and I think that that's part of the

defensive strategy and you'll see that

more and more particularly when Michael

Cohen actually takes the stand so you

know this this is something that is not

to be unexpected the prosecution is

going to try and distance Donald Trump

and then at the same time try and Sully

the names and the reputations and the

actions quite frankly of many of the

other prosecution witnesses okay Gary

Pharaoh is done he he stepping down now

who's next Danny oh that's unfair I I

really it could be any look into the

crystal ball for me yeah I mean I expect

so for example Karen McDougall we may

see Karen McDougall but you know while

she is an example of a flashy witness

she doesn't really Advance the ball that

much for the prosecution You could argue

that she isn't really even necessary or

minimal minimally necessary so we have a

lot of potential Witnesses in this case

that are explosive flashy exciting but

some of them aren't necessarily that

compelling in terms of proving the facts

and the elements that the prosecution

needs stormy Daniel is kind of an

example of that I mean arguably you've

already gotten the Gary phoh testimony

we've got the transaction the documents

are in that transaction is what it is

the jury either believes it or they

don't but there's documents to back it

up so we have an unusual this isn't I

mean this isn't that uncommon in Trials

you'll have witnesses that put on a show

but the substantive Witnesses you might

make an argument that a Gary Pharaoh was

more important to the the people's case

than say a Karen McDougall which is a

transaction that Trump isn't even

charged with in this case but everyone

wants to hear from her why not yeah and

we just are told the court has moved

into recess no word yet Charles on who

is coming next so same question to you

we've got Caren McDougall out there

Stormy Daniels Michael Cohen hope pxs

Keith Davidson who who do you think

should be called next if you're the

prosecutor uh I'm gonna go with either

Davidson or McDougall I don't know that

I'm using Stormy Daniels yet only

because she's one of the bigger names

left um I think that you do have to have

a witness who's going to add some level

of flavor back to the prosecution's case

just to keep the jury engaged this is

Gary Farrell is not a witness that's

going to be pretty exciting for the jury

and you don't want to lose them because

you're going to need them to be able to

follow everything that's taking place

and as of right now the prosecution has

not gotten to the point where Donald

Trump has committed any crime say you

have to keep jury engaged and right now

uh Gary Farrell is not going to do it so

I would expect them to come back with

someone who's going to have a little bit

of flavor

little bit of scintillating testimony

just to make sure that the jury stays

engaged and you can continue presenting

your case in Chief Charles Coleman Danny

stalos our thanks to both of you as well

as Von hilard as he continues to report

outside the

courthouse Maya what do you make of the

judges ruling on these gag uh violations

and I'm just thinking is it like a a

system by which you say you know and the

judge said I wish I had the possibility

of increasing those fines right to

$1,000 is it that on Thursday he could

decide to increase and others how was

that

work yeah well first let let's just say

this and I think this is really

important to understand there is a

statute that the judge is paying

attention to that says the court has to

protect judicial proceedings and the

respect for the Mandate of the Court the

orders of the court and just remember

Donald Trump was not ordered to be

silent about the case he was only

ordered to not speak about Witnesses

jurors Court Personnel or their families

in other words the very things that

Donald Trump has in run out and done in

other cases but also has done repeatedly

in this case so essentially what we're

seeing here is the judge saying I'm

going to take the reasonable step of

finding you the maximum that I am

allowed which is

$11,000 per instance that you violated

my order and remember he did I think

nine out of 10 so he didn't find all of

them in contempt but the point in the

message he's sending is look don't keep

doing this and if I could I would charge

more I would find you more but the

reason is because I am trying to tell

you give you all the

disincentives to disrespecting this

court and disrespecting the process

disrespecting the orders in order to say

get in line and just do what's right

here uh so what he's also saying is but

I've got more I can do and I will if you

make me and it's that simple because he

can't just he can keep finding him

$1,000 doar each time he does it but his

point I think is pretty clear which is

Donald Trump is a wealthy man and so

$9,000 may not be disincentive to

someone who has all the money that

Donald Trump tells us all the time that

he has

and so David right now there is a break

for the jury but the uh prosecution and

the uh defense is meeting with the judge

now and among the things that the

prosecution is asking for uh is uh and

it's interesting because he says here

that you know they want supplemental

Sandoval notice for Trump specifically

what does that mean so so what they're

saying is they want to be able to

cross-examine Trump on these violations

of the gag order and and you know the

prosecution has to be careful about

overplaying their hand because Trump

wants chaos right that's what he's

playing on that's what he's hoping for

the $9,000 is mindset that's not even a

slap on the wrist it's more like a pat

on the back and and he's going to keep

violating he's going to keep doing it

but what the prosecutor is saying now is

we want to be able to cross-examine him

on this and this is what led to problems

in the Harvey Weinstein case that led to

a reversal last week so the the

prosecution has to be really careful

about overplaying its hand and saying we

want to use all of this stuff for

cross-examination to show the jury and

I'm sure Trump's loving it right but if

you cross-examine Trump that means that

he would have to agree to be a witness

on this correct and and so what the

prosecution is saying is if he is a

witness we want the ability to

cross-examine and in New York the judge

has to rule on that in advance of him

coming on the stand so the defense knows

what's fair game for cross and what's

not fair game so Maya the judge is going

to hold that hearing this Thursday on

the four more alleged gag order

violations what does this decision

potentially mean for Thursday

well I think it just means that we're

going to find out if there's more fines

or if the judge is going to feel it

necessary to take a more extreme step

and find some way to sanction Donald

Trump that either has him sitting in the

back of the courtroom not the front um

there are all kinds of ways the judge

can put him in a form of contempt that

reduces where and how he's positioned in

the courtroom but I think um and equally

importantly and to David's Point look

you know part of what the prosecution

may be doing here is saying we actually

want to make sure you know you keep

talking out here we're actually going to

be able to cross-examine you if you take

the stand on things you're saying that

go directly to the facts that need to be

established in this case like the fact

that he's out here saying hey it was

just a business transaction it wasn't

mine and I didn't have anything that

Michael Cohen just did some things he

does a lot of things for other people

that actually go straight to Donald

Trump's intent and what he did and did

not do and I would say that would be an

overstep in that instance uh at the same

time I think it's also a warning to

Donald Trump you do have other reasons

why you might want to be careful about

what you

say and David I know that you're you

know a lot of the people that are

involved in this trial as well as the

other trials upcoming for for the former

president blanch specifically he is

right now there fighting in this whole

issue how would you describe that legal

team that the former president has in

this case you know Todd's a great guy

he's a friend um he's doing everything

he can I saw that there were leaks this

weekend about you know Trump being

unhappy and you know it reminds me of

the story with blanch and and it reminds

me of the story of the Scorpion and the

Frog right the Scorpion asked the Frog

for a ride across the lake and the the

Frog thinks you know if I do this am I

going to get stung of course not cuz

then we'd both drown and of course the

Scorpion Ste the Frog halfway across and

as they're drowning the the frog says

why' you do that and the Scorpion says

it's in my nature this is in Trump's

nature he cannot help himself he wants

chaos he wants to attack the judge the

jury and now his lawyers I feel for Todd

he's in a very very very difficult

position and the what teeth does the

judge have on gag order violations going

forward is it always going to be another

thousand another thousand or jail or as

Maya was saying moving him he he can you

know moving him is an option I don't

think the judge is going to do that that

Trump wants to be put in jail he wants

the chaos he wants the the judge to take

that step so he can complain it's almost

like the graduation thing he he was

better off uh when the judge was saying

you can't go to graduation this morning

the judge said you can go now Trump

doesn't have that to complain about so

Trump is pushing the judge for this for

this you know break point where the

judge has to put him in jail Trump is

not going to stop based on a couple

thousand dollars I'm I will guarantee

you that we're hearing for the first

time from inside the courtroom with

MSNBC Chief legal correspondent Ari

melber host of the beat and he's just

made his way out okay give us your big

takeaways

Ari well this was obviously uh one of

the most significant uh patches of

testimony we've had about the underlying

incidents you had defendant Trump

sitting there in court um as questions

were asked um about whether as they put

it in court uh does Melania know quote

unquote that he had this affair did this

happen quote unquote during the marriage

referring to those uh texts as Keith

Davidson the lawyer for Karen McDougall

spoke to Dylan Howard the Tabloid uh

senior publisher figure about the nature

of this story um so I think this was by

far one of the the most intense uh Court

days for the defendant and clearly uh

from my view just to tell you in the

room I could see the side of the

defendant's face as he kind of watched

it he largely looked composed or even

non Plus at times um during what was

obviously a striking or dramatic moment

I also had a view of the jury and while

we're careful about not describing them

in detail as a general matter uh the

jury appeared very attentive very

wrapped very focused on on what was a

very eventful Set uh of of facts or

allegations put forward um and then we

also had of course as I think you were

covering video of then candidate Trump

played so the jury could take that in so

really it was it was quite an active

couple

hours let me ask you too about the

relationship as you viewed it between

Todd blanch his key lawyer and Donald

Trump himself because there was a large

story in the New York Times today about

how uh Trump is getting frustrated we've

seen this before right in the past with

Donald Trump he wants his lawyers to do

what he's going to do there's this push

and pull how do you appease your client

but also do what you think is going to

get your client acquitted did you see

anything telling between the two of them

well they were conversing almost like

normal today is how I would describe it

um this is as you know a defendant who's

much more actively involved in problem

in I have a problem

here um I can hear you can you hear

me all right I'm going to keep going um

I Heard Chris ask about the microphone

but I'm being told I I can be heard

hopefully I was going to say we could

see defendant Trump who's much more

active than most defendants in the legal

setting um speaking having sidebars at

one point I could see um his lawyer

blanch kind of covering his mouth so

that the internal cameras that are used

inside the court might not pick up

anything but he was having back and

forth uh with defendant Trump and we

also could see again from inside the

courtroom um Mr Trump going up and down

the aisle in both times and he he looked

very Stern as he has in other days but

perhaps one might say uh he looked

particularly Stern today so we would see

those kind of interactions with his

lawyers and and blance was doing the

normal stuff today I mean they had stuff

in front of the jury but they also had

stuff without the jury talking about

planning and scheduling and so um to the

extent that we're kind of looking for

tea leaves about their relationship it

didn't seem to me like an abnormal day

for their interactions let me go back to

the jury if I can for a second and we're

going to talk more about this going

forward which is sort of the story that

you have to build as a prosecutor right

and the fact that they brought in a

couple of people that maybe they didn't

need to they could have just said the

defense could have said you know what

we're going to say it's okay you don't

need to bring the guy in from C-SPAN

we're going to allow accept this uh to

come in uh but is there any point at

which you saw the jury lost attention

sometimes when you start talking about

things like documents and people who are

on who are not as exciting maybe as the

other folks have been do the jurors seem

engaged and are they still taking

notes they're taking notes they did

appear engaged um and that seemed to be

the case for both of sort of the morning

sessions the first session and then the

post break session where we had uh that

more dramatic testimony about the

dealings with with McDougall about the

quote unquote Affair and those questions

and those old texts so I didn't detect

again from watching and I had a pretty

clear view from the second row of the

jury I didn't detect them totally tuning

out that said you're absolutely right um

that as cases drag on the whole reason

that sometimes you come to stipulations

with the other side is to avoid doing

what you did today where you sort of

have someone from cpan which all of our

viewers know we love cpan but you have

someone there really for chain of

custody purposes saying yes this is

really the right tape yes this really is

the Donald Trump and if the jury doesn't

know they don't know why it's getting so

boring right they don't know the

necessarily the backstory of that um but

they've been instructed by the judge and

my experienced jurors uh tend to follow

this when the judge says hey there are

reasons we're doing this they relate to

accuracy and fairness uh we're not

trying to waste your time the judges put

it in more formal language but basically

yeah we got to have these people in so

you know the video you're looking at the

text you're looking at this is all legit

joining us now as former assistant

district attorney from Manhattan and New

York law school Professor Rebecca royy

criminal defense attorney and MSNBC

legal analyst Dany savalos and New York

Times investigative reporter uh David

fenold uh David back to you on the this

issue of the moment that we were in in

the campaign I mean you broke the excess

Hollywood tape uh bring us into the into

how crucial um this testimony could

possibly be for the Pro

prosecution well you have to remember

the prosecution is they have to make a

two-step they have to make they have to

prove two things here not just the

Donald Trump lied about the documents

that showed he paid that Michael Cohen

paid somebody off and that he paid back

Michael Cohen but that he did it for a

specific reason he lied in those

documents to help his political campaign

to subvert an election to hide something

from the public so that's why it's so

important for them to be explaining the

political context and the political

meaning of the paying off stormmy

Daniels it wasn't just a hide something

from Trump's wife it was to hide

something from the voting public so yeah

the the day after AIS Hollywood the

story we wrote uh my the Paul Ryan the

most prominent Republican in the house

was canceling events with Donald Trump

other people Republican elected

officials were telling their members

Senators Hey listen if you want to cut

ties with this guy save yourselves

basically walk away from him it was a

time of total abandonment I've never

seen a a Presidential nominee of either

party abandoned even briefly by their

own party the way that he was abandoned

in the late St of that campaign so it

helps you understand sort of the

desperation he was in not to have

another one of these shoes drop but what

about the desperation Rebecca I'll bring

you on in on this for Cohen to to make

this deal because it was was initially

going to be an Ami deal a national

Inquirer deal but then the the inquir

says we're not a bank we can't do this

and then there is a negotiation or plea

from Dylan Howard at the inquir to Keith

Davidson to to negotiate directly with

Michael Cohen he says who's really

pushing him to do it and you can see on

the screen Davidson says moral of the

story here is no one wanted to talk to

Cohen that's eliciting laughter from the

room but why is it important or is it

important for the prosecution to to make

it clear that this was not just a deal

between or not a deal between Ami and

Stormy Daniels but a deal now directly

with Michael

Cohen yeah absolutely because as David

was saying the core of this case is

about falsifying records it's about

lying on records so this is setting up

the key elements of the crime to come

which is why did Michael Cohen and

president Trump former president Trump

um engage in these series of lies and so

coming on the heels of this testimony it

makes quite clear that what their intent

would be in doing that it was now so

much pressure on them to do it

themselves and they had to get around

this problem of how do you pay this and

hide the payment and so we are really

not only talking about the intent um to

uh commit or conceal maybe that state

election law crime which makes it a um a

crime to unlawfully promote the election

of a person through unlawful means but

also setting up the the reason why as

you suggested in the in the early part

of what you were saying the motive for

falsifying those records and we have

Michael Cohen coming up sometime down

the down the road and this is setting up

a really good I think a really good ramp

for Michael Cohen which is you don't

really you know he is he's almost up

there and you don't really have to think

he's a truth teller in order to believe

what he is saying because all of this is

being set up by other Witnesses and

those Witnesses are being corroborated

by these text messages Danny I know

you're thinking about this like a

defense attorney is and what we're

seeing in the courtroom according to our

reporters who are there is that Todd

blanch has been enjoying moments of this

testimony moments that described Michael