The Rachel Maddow Show 5/18/24 | ๐Ÿ…ผ๐Ÿ†‚๐Ÿ…ฝ๐Ÿ…ฑ๐Ÿ…ฒ Breaking News May 18, 2024

Lรฉia Oliveira
18 May 202451:19

Summary

TLDRIn a pivotal moment of the criminal trial against former President Donald Trump, his longtime lawyer and 'fixer,' Michael Cohen, testified that Trump personally approved and directed hush money payments to Stormy Daniels during the 2016 campaign. Cohen's testimony aimed to show Trump's direct involvement in a scheme to suppress negative information and benefit his campaign. The prosecution's case relies on establishing Trump's intent and knowledge, while the defense may argue Cohen and others acted without Trump's consent. The trial's outcome could hinge on the jury's perception of the evidence and Trump's involvement.

Takeaways

  • ๐Ÿ“… Michael Cohen recalls being in London for his daughter's 21st birthday and anniversary on October 7th, 2016, the day the Access Hollywood tape was released.
  • ๐Ÿ“ž Cohen received a call from Hope Hicks, the communication director for the Trump campaign, informing him about the tape, and also an email from Steve Bannon regarding its potential release.
  • ๐Ÿ”— The email exchange between Cohen, Bannon, and others was about crafting a response to the impending story about Trump's alleged infidelities and the cover-up, showing Cohen as an integral part of the campaign's strategy.
  • ๐ŸŽฅ Hope Hicks forwarded an email from David Farenthold of The Washington Post to Cohen, seeking comment on the tape leak, indicating a coordinated effort to manage the narrative.
  • ๐Ÿค” Cohen testified that Trump wanted to spin the Access Hollywood tape as 'locker room talk,' a phrase he claimed Melania Trump suggested, to minimize its impact on the campaign.
  • ๐Ÿ’ฌ Cohen's testimony highlights the active role he played in the Trump campaign's response to allegations and scandals, contradicting any notion of him being a 'rogue employee'.
  • ๐Ÿ’ธ Cohen also discussed the hush money payment to Stormy Daniels, stating that Trump personally approved and directed it to protect his campaign, not his family.
  • ๐Ÿ—ฃ๏ธ Trump's defense may face challenges countering Cohen's detailed account of events, given his history as Trump's 'fixer' and the evidence presented in court.
  • ๐Ÿ“ˆ The trial's impact on public opinion is yet to be fully understood, but it has not significantly changed views of the candidates thus far according to some polling data.
  • ๐ŸŽ‰ Outside the court, Trump's trial has become a spectacle with Republican politicians showing support, possibly seeking favor for future political ambitions.

Q & A

  • What significant event occurred on October 7th, 2016, as mentioned in the trial?

    -The release of the Access Hollywood tape, which featured then-presidential candidate Donald Trump making inappropriate comments, occurred on October 7th, 2016.

  • Who were Hope Hicks and Steve Bannon at the time of the Access Hollywood tape release?

    -Hope Hicks was the Communications Director for the Trump campaign, and Steve Bannon was the Campaign Manager for the Trump campaign.

  • What role did Michael Cohen play in relation to the Access Hollywood tape?

    -Michael Cohen received a phone call from Hope Hicks about the tape and was also involved in discussions regarding the strategy to deal with the tape's impact on the campaign.

  • What was the strategy decided upon to handle the Access Hollywood tape situation?

    -The strategy was to spin the tape as 'locker room talk,' a phrase that was suggested by Melania Trump, according to Michael Cohen's testimony.

  • Who was David Farenthold and what was his involvement in the trial?

    -David Farenthold was a reporter from The Washington Post who sent an urgent query to Hope Hicks regarding the Access Hollywood tape leak.

  • What was the purpose of the email exchange between Hope Hicks and Michael Cohen?

    -The email exchange was regarding the potential release of the Access Hollywood tape and how to respond to media inquiries about it.

  • What does the testimony of Michael Cohen suggest about his role in the Trump campaign?

    -Michael Cohen's testimony suggests that he was not a rogue employee but was closely involved with the Trump campaign, participating in key decisions and strategies, including those related to the Access Hollywood tape.

  • What was the significance of the testimony about Melania Trump's response to the Access Hollywood tape?

    -The testimony indicates that Melania Trump was portrayed as a team player in the cover-up, which could undermine any defense strategy that relies on her being unaware or uninvolved in the campaign's response to the tape.

  • What was the context of the recording made by Michael Cohen involving Donald Trump?

    -The recording was made during a conversation about how to structure the payment to reimburse American Media for the money they had advanced to Karen McDougall, to ensure that the story about her alleged affair with Trump would not be published.

  • What was the prosecution's strategy in having Michael Cohen as a witness?

    -The prosecution's strategy was to use Michael Cohen as a key witness to provide a detailed account of the alleged criminal activities, including the payment to Stormy Daniels and the handling of the Access Hollywood tape, situating Trump at the center of these activities.

  • What is the potential impact of the tapes and testimonies on the jury's perception of Donald Trump?

    -The tapes and testimonies could potentially influence the jury's perception of Donald Trump by presenting him as being directly involved in the alleged criminal activities and cover-ups, which could be crucial in establishing intent and consciousness of guilt.

Outlines

00:00

๐Ÿ“… Trump's Response to the Access Hollywood Tape

In this paragraph, Michael Cohen, former personal lawyer to Donald Trump, recounts his recollection of the events surrounding the release of the Access Hollywood tape in October 2016. Cohen was in London for his daughter's birthday and his anniversary when he received a call from Hope Hicks, then the communication director for the Trump campaign, informing him of the tape's release. He also received an email from Steve Bannon, the campaign manager at the time, discussing the tape. The email exchange involved discussing a strategy to manage the fallout from the tape, with Hicks forwarding an urgent email from the Washington Post seeking comment on the tape. Cohen mentions a phone call with Trump, where the strategy to label the tape's content as 'locker room talk' was decided upon, a phrase allegedly suggested by Melania Trump. This paragraph highlights the coordinated response within the Trump campaign to mitigate the impact of the tape on the election.

05:03

๐Ÿค Michael Cohen's Role in Trump's Legal Strategy

This paragraph delves into Michael Cohen's involvement in formulating and executing legal strategies for Donald Trump, particularly in response to allegations of infidelity. It discusses Cohen's role in crafting public statements and managing media narratives, as evidenced by email exchanges with Hope Hicks. The paragraph also touches on the public's perception of Cohen and the reality of his deep integration into Trump's team, contradicting any notion of him being a 'rogue employee'. It highlights the proactive measures taken by the Trump campaign, with Cohen at the helm, to counter allegations and control the narrative, especially in relation to women's allegations against Trump.

10:05

๐ŸŽค The Political Theater of Trump's Criminal Trial

In this paragraph, the focus shifts to the political implications of Trump's criminal trial. It discusses the presence of Republican politicians, including senators and attorneys general, who are publicly supporting Trump during his trial. The narrative suggests that this support is part of a broader political strategy, with these politicians angling for positions in a potential second Trump administration. The paragraph also contrasts Trump's claims that the trial is preventing him from campaigning with the reality that he is not actively campaigning on his non-trial days. It critiques the behavior of these politicians as 'craven' and 'embarrassing', highlighting the spectacle of the trial and its impact on the Republican party's image.

15:06

๐Ÿ› The Contrasting Campaigns of Trump and Biden

This paragraph contrasts the political strategies of Donald Trump and Joe Biden during the presidential campaign. It points out that while Trump is making his criminal trial a central part of his campaign narrative, Biden is focusing on promoting his administration's accomplishments and how they benefit the public. The paragraph also notes that Biden is actively campaigning in swing states, unlike Trump who is often at his club in Florida or at home. The discussion suggests that the two candidates are operating on 'wildly different planets', reflecting the stark contrast in their approaches to the election.

20:08

๐ŸŽฅ Michael Cohen's Testimony on Trump's Alleged Misdeeds

In this paragraph, the discussion centers on Michael Cohen's testimony regarding his interactions with Donald Trump, particularly concerning Stormy Daniels. Cohen details a 2011 conversation with Trump about Daniels, an adult film star, and the efforts to suppress a story about their alleged encounter. The paragraph also touches on Cohen's role in managing negative information about Trump and the implications of these actions for the prosecution's case. It highlights the evidence presented in court, including a recording of Cohen and Trump discussing payments, which could be crucial in establishing Trump's involvement in the alleged criminal activity.

25:11

๐Ÿ’ผ Trump's Involvement in Hush Money Payments

The paragraph focuses on the details of the hush money payments allegedly orchestrated by Donald Trump, with Michael Cohen's testimony providing a timeline and context for these transactions. It discusses the payments to Stormy Daniels and the involvement of American Media, Inc. (AMI), which advanced money to Karen McDougal. The paragraph reveals a recording where Trump and Cohen discuss making payments in cash to avoid a paper trail, underscoring Trump's alleged desire to keep the transactions secret. This evidence is crucial for the prosecution's case, as it implicates Trump directly in the scheme to suppress negative information during his presidential campaign.

30:13

๐Ÿ—ณ๏ธ The Legal and Political Implications of Trump's Actions

This paragraph explores the legal and political ramifications of the actions described in the trial. It discusses the potential strategies of Trump's defense, including the possibility of pleading guilty to a lesser offense to avoid more severe charges. The paragraph also considers the impact of the trial on public perception and the political calculations of those involved. It highlights the complexity of the case and the challenges faced by the prosecution in proving intent and establishing a clear narrative of guilt.

Mindmap

Keywords

๐Ÿ’กDonald Trump

Donald Trump is the former president of the United States and the central figure in the criminal trial discussed in the video script. His involvement in the trial is the main theme of the video, with the trial focusing on allegations of financial misconduct and hush money payments during his presidential campaign.

๐Ÿ’กMichael Cohen

Michael Cohen is a lawyer and former 'fixer' for Donald Trump. In the script, he is a key witness for the prosecution, providing testimony about Trump's alleged involvement in making hush money payments to silence stories that could have damaged his presidential campaign. His testimony is crucial as it directly implicates Trump's actions.

๐Ÿ’กHush Money

Hush money refers to payments made to ensure silence about a particular matter, often to avoid scandal or public exposure. In the video's context, it is alleged that Trump directed the payment of hush money to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall to prevent their stories about alleged affairs from influencing the election.

๐Ÿ’กStormy Daniels

Stormy Daniels is an adult film actress who allegedly had an affair with Trump and was paid hush money to keep her story quiet during the 2016 presidential campaign. Her name is repeatedly mentioned in the script as a key figure whose story was allegedly suppressed by Trump's team.

๐Ÿ’กKaren McDougall

Karen McDougall is a former Playboy Playmate who also allegedly had an affair with Trump and was paid to keep quiet. Her story is mentioned in the script as another instance of alleged hush money payment to protect Trump's image during the campaign.

๐Ÿ’กDavid Pecker

David Pecker is the former head of American Media, Inc., which published the National Enquirer. In the script, Pecker is implicated in the alleged scheme to suppress negative stories about Trump by purchasing the rights to McDougall's story to ensure it never became public.

๐Ÿ’กFalsification of Business Records

Falsification of business records is a crime that involves making false entries in a business's official records. In the video, this is the charge against Trump, alleging that he falsely recorded legal fees to disguise hush money payments, as detailed in the script.

๐Ÿ’กProsecution

The prosecution in the script refers to the legal team bringing charges against Donald Trump. Their role is to present evidence and testimony to prove that Trump was involved in criminal activity related to hush money payments.

๐Ÿ’กCross-Examination

Cross-examination is a legal process where a witness is questioned by the opposing counsel, in this case, the defense. The script mentions anticipation of a tough cross-examination of Michael Cohen, indicating a critical phase in the trial where the defense will challenge his credibility and testimony.

๐Ÿ’กCampaign Finance

Campaign finance refers to the funding of political campaigns. In the video script, the discussion revolves around whether the payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall should have been considered campaign expenses, which ties into the legality and reporting of these transactions.

๐Ÿ’กTestimony

Testimony in the script refers to the formal statements made by witnesses under oath during a trial. Michael Cohen's testimony is highlighted, as he provides detailed accounts of his interactions with Trump and the alleged hush money payments.

Highlights

Michael Cohen testified that Donald Trump personally approved and directed the hush money payment to Stormy Daniels to protect his presidential campaign.

Cohen recalled being in London for his daughter's 21st birthday and anniversary when the Access Hollywood tape was released.

Hope Hicks, the communication director for the Trump campaign, informed Cohen about the release of the Access Hollywood tape.

Steve Bannon, the campaign manager at the time, also sent an email to Cohen regarding the potential release of the tape.

David Farenthold from the Washington Post sent an urgent query to Hope Hicks for comment on the tape leak, which Hicks forwarded to the campaign team.

Cohen stated that Trump wanted to spin the Access Hollywood tape as 'locker room talk', a phrase he claimed Melania Trump used.

An email exchange between Hope Hicks and Michael Cohen showed Hicks trying out different types of denials for a story about alleged infidelities.

Cohen was a key part of the team's response to allegations from women and was consulted at the highest levels for the response strategy.

Melania Trump's role and her contribution to the defense strategy were highlighted, showing her as a team player in the cover-up.

The prosecution presented a case that Michael Cohen was not a rogue employee but an integral part of Trump's team, especially in matters of alleged infidelity.

Cohen's testimony and the evidence introduced show that he was part of a coordinated effort to respond to the Access Hollywood tape and other allegations.

The trial revealed that Trump's defense might rely on the narrative that the hush money was paid to protect Melania, not to influence the campaign.

Cohen's account of his involvement in the scheme to suppress negative information about Trump provides a detailed timeline and corroborating evidence.

The prosecution's case is building a picture of Trump as the central figure in a coordinated effort to violate campaign finance laws.

A recording of Cohen and Trump discussing the reimbursement of American Media for the payment to Karen McDougall was played during the trial.

Trump's desire to make the payment in cash suggests an intent to keep the transaction untraceable and hidden.

Cohen's testimony implicates Trump as having knowledge and involvement in the alleged falsification of business records.

Transcripts

00:00

welcome back to our Prime Time recap of

00:02

the criminal trial of former president

00:05

Donald Trump prosecutor I would like to

00:08

direct your attention now to October 7th

00:10

2016 do you remember where you were that

00:13

day Michael Cohen yes question where

00:15

were you answer I was in London question

00:18

how do you remember that you were in

00:19

London answer well I went to London for

00:21

my daughter's 21st birthday as well as

00:23

for my anniversary and while you were in

00:25

London did you become aware of the

00:26

release of what's known as the access

00:28

Hollywood tape answer yes

00:30

and how did you become aware of that

00:31

tape coming out or that it had come out

00:33

answer I received a phone call who did

00:35

you receive a phone call from answer

00:37

from Hope Hicks who was hope Hicks at

00:40

the time hope Hicks was communication

00:42

director for the Trump campaign do you

00:44

also recall receiving at around that

00:46

time an email from Steve Bannon about

00:48

the potential release of the Access

00:49

Hollywood tape answer yes and who was

00:52

Steve Bannon at the time campaign

00:54

manager for the Trump campaign question

00:56

do you recognize this email answer I do

00:58

it's an email between me and Steve

01:00

Bannon as well as hope pix Jason Miller

01:02

kellyanne Conway David bossy does it

01:05

relate to the release of the Access

01:06

Hollywood tape it does and can you tell

01:08

the jury what you understand this bottom

01:10

email to be answer yes this is an email

01:13

from David farenthold of the Washington

01:15

Post and it's to Hope Hicks with the

01:17

subject matter of urgent Washington Post

01:20

query question and just in general what

01:24

is he communicating to Hope Hicks and

01:26

what is he asking her for answer he's

01:28

asking her for comment in regard to the

01:29

the leak of the tape from Access

01:31

Hollywood question and is there a

01:33

transcript of the Access Hollywood tape

01:34

attached to the email from David fenold

01:37

to hopix answer there is question and

01:40

does hopix then forward that email to

01:42

some other folks answer she does what

01:44

does hopix say in that email that she

01:46

forwards on to those folks involved in

01:48

the campaign answer need to hear the

01:51

tape to be sure Then followed by deny

01:55

deny

01:56

deny question and is that does does that

02:00

get forwarded now as we scroll down does

02:01

that get forwarded by Mr Bannon onto you

02:04

answer yes ma'am question and while you

02:07

were in London did you have several

02:08

calls with hope hick about this matter

02:10

the exess Hollywood tape answer I did at

02:13

one point did Mr Trump join a call with

02:15

yourself and hope pick answer yes on

02:17

that day on October 8th Answer yes

02:20

question and did you also have another

02:22

separate call with Mr Trump on October

02:24

8th 2016 answer yes question do you have

02:27

a separate memory of where you were and

02:29

what you were doing when you had these

02:30

phone calls with him answer yes what

02:32

were you doing answer I was in my I was

02:35

with my family and friends in London

02:37

question were you having dinner answer I

02:39

was did you step out to take these calls

02:41

I did and what if any discussion do you

02:44

remember with Mr Trump about the tape

02:46

and the strategy for dealing with it

02:48

answer he wanted me to reach out to all

02:50

of my contacts with the media we needed

02:52

to put a spin on this and the spin that

02:55

he wanted to put on

02:57

it was that this is Locker room talk

03:01

something that Melania had

03:04

recommended or at least he told me that

03:07

that's what Melania had thought it was

03:09

and use that in order to get control

03:11

over the story and to minimize its

03:13

impact on him and the campaign question

03:16

and what if anything did you do at that

03:18

point to try to assist the campaign with

03:20

that effort answer I reached out to

03:21

members of the

03:24

media he told her that uh excuse me he

03:26

told Mr Cohen that the locker room talk

03:30

defense which became the defense that

03:33

spin about what the Access Hollywood

03:35

tape was all about Michael Cohen says

03:37

that Trump told him it was his wife's

03:40

idea that it was Melania Trump's phrase

03:43

locker room

03:44

talk the other thing that's important

03:47

about this exchange besides that bizarre

03:50

assertion is that it shows that Michael

03:53

Cohen was not a rogue employee he was

03:56

not a solo operator especially on issues

03:59

like as Nicole points out that things

04:01

that related to alleged infidelity

04:04

Michael Cohen was on the team he was

04:06

part of if not leading the whole team

04:08

response that was also made clear in

04:10

this exhibit this printed exhibit that

04:12

was filed for the first time in court

04:14

today this is right before the election

04:16

the election was November 8th this was

04:18

November 4th and this email exchange

04:20

between hope Hicks and Michael Cohen

04:22

shows Hicks trying out different types

04:24

of denials that she wants to issue

04:27

potentially to the Wall Street Journal

04:29

about the story they're about to run

04:30

about these alleged infidelities and the

04:33

cover up of them she's running these

04:35

proposed denials by Michael Cohen Cohen

04:39

responds with his own he says quote

04:40

instead say this these accusations are

04:43

completely untrue and just the latest

04:44

despicable attempt by the liberal media

04:46

and the Clinton machine to blah blah

04:48

blah blah blah blah

04:51

blah prosecutors throughout this trial

04:54

have not just allowed they have

04:56

basically invited testimony from earlier

04:59

Witness including from hopix um in

05:03

invited these witnesses to disparage or

05:07

say how much they didn't like or didn't

05:09

respect Michael

05:11

Cohen but then today they showed the

05:13

receipts of him not operating alone of

05:15

him being totally part of Team Trump

05:17

responding to allegations about Trump

05:19

being consulted at the highest levels

05:21

about what the response should be

05:23

specifically he was a key part of the

05:26

whole team's response when it came to

05:28

allegations from women

05:30

how does that part of his testimony

05:33

today and this evidence introduced today

05:35

uh help the prosecution I'm endlessly

05:39

intrigued by the Sinister role hopix

05:41

played behind the scenes because other

05:43

than Bill bar there's no one whose

05:45

reputation has been more successfully

05:47

laundered sort of before during after

05:49

the Trump years than than hopix hopix

05:51

gets a transcript of Access Hollywood

05:54

she's in the room where Trump is saying

05:55

is that Trump he's talking about himself

05:57

in the third person I understand and her

05:59

she sends the TR of course we're going

06:01

to deny deny deny the first thing she

06:04

writes when Wall Street Journal calls

06:05

with McDougall is deny deny deny and if

06:07

you read her draft responses they are

06:10

more bombastic more partisan and more

06:12

nasty than anything Cohen edits her down

06:15

I mean h hopix is sort of the the

06:17

surprise and it shouldn't be a surprise

06:20

but a really sharp elbowed sort of paid

06:23

liar for Donald Trump and Coen is a

06:25

moderating force on the public

06:26

statements of The Campaign which is

06:28

stunning the melan thing I had heard at

06:30

the time and Milani actually goes out

06:31

and does an interview where she says

06:33

that and I think she says it in an

06:35

interview I can't remember if it's in

06:37

his hostage statement that night

06:39

remember he puts out a hostage I can't I

06:41

can't remember if he uses it but she

06:42

does an interview they somehow I I don't

06:44

know how but they get her to do an

06:45

interview and she uses that line in an

06:47

interview that she does I think it's

06:49

maybe after the debate so it's maybe

06:51

four days after the tape is dropped but

06:53

that is their their line and I mean

06:55

tragically because the other stories

06:57

stay silent

07:00

you know in their minds they think it

07:01

does work Lawrence so you know the

07:04

Melania question uh is is kind of

07:06

important on on this point uh because

07:09

Melania will through the questioning of

07:11

the defense that they will try to use

07:14

her as a reason Donald Trump wanted

07:17

these things to not come out uh but what

07:19

you're seeing there is Melania Trump in

07:22

this in this testimony is going to be

07:23

uncontested let's remember Donald Trump

07:26

is not going to take the witness stand

07:27

and say Melania didn't say that Milani

07:30

is not going to take the witness stand

07:31

and say she didn't say that so it will

07:33

be uncontested in the record and this is

07:37

Melania Trump after seeing what Donald

07:40

how Donald Trump brags about his

07:42

favorite method of sexual assault this

07:45

is worse than what you're learning about

07:47

Stormy Daniels this is worse than what

07:49

you're learning about Susan McDougall

07:51

and this portrays Melania as a team

07:54

player in the coverup let's get our guy

07:57

through it which means

08:00

why would you ever worry about Melania

08:04

when the stormy Daniel story comes along

08:06

yeah which matters right if the defense

08:09

is going to count on putting in a mind

08:12

of a single juror a counternarrative

08:14

that makes this whole hush money and and

08:18

and falsification of business records

08:20

scheme something that is innocent

08:22

because it wasn't Criminal is just

08:24

designed to protect Melania just

08:25

designed to protect the family rather

08:27

than to influence the campaign I mean if

08:30

that's what they're going to try to do

08:31

it seems very hard to do that now given

08:34

the testimony about Mrs Trump's own

08:37

contributions to this defense and to

08:39

what he what Trump explained about how

08:41

he didn't care about whether she knew so

08:42

just a second on here's how a defense

08:44

would do that they'd put Melania they

08:46

put the wife on the witness stand she'd

08:48

be in tears saying this crushed me this

08:50

was devastating when I learned this

08:52

Stormy Daniels news it was the most

08:53

horrible day of my life that's the way a

08:56

defense would actually get that into a

08:58

case like this or she'd be there she'd

09:00

be sitting behind him every day of the

09:02

trial showing her support even if she

09:04

doesn't take the stand but her absence

09:07

screams volumes of a lack of a belief in

09:10

Donald Trump our Prime Time recap of the

09:13

only criminal trial in history of an

09:15

American president uh continues right

09:17

after the break we got much more to come

09:18

stay with

09:19

us welcome back to our MSNBC Prime Time

09:22

recap of the criminal trial of former

09:26

president Donald Trump I'm here with my

09:27

colleagues Ari melber and Katie Fang and

09:30

Chris Hayes from MSNBC along with

09:32

Suzanne Craig from The New York Times

09:33

good to have you all here uh today the

09:35

prosecution called its 20th and likely

09:38

its Final witness Trump's longtime

09:41

lawyer and quote unquote fixer Michael

09:44

Cohen Michael Cohen today told the jury

09:46

that Trump personally approved and

09:48

directed The Hush money payment to an

09:51

adult fil film actress and director in

09:53

2016 including the false pretense of

09:56

structuring the payment as if it was um

09:59

a set of legal fees when it wasn't Cohen

10:02

testified today that Trump did this

10:04

explicitly to protect his presidential

10:06

campaign from the damage her story would

10:10

cause that it was not paid to protect

10:12

his family or his wife from any

10:15

embarrassment this Blockbuster testimony

10:17

defined the official court action inside

10:20

the court the direct examination of

10:22

Cohen will continue tomorrow the

10:24

cross-examination will then begin

10:26

thereafter and we expect lots of

10:28

fireworks at that point point but today

10:30

outside the court Trump made his own bid

10:33

for attention with the help from some of

10:35

his friends do we call them friends

10:39

possible running mates political allies

10:41

I don't know as he always does on his

10:43

way into court this morning the former

10:45

president himself stopped in front of

10:46

cameras to spend a few minutes

10:48

denouncing the trial uh but if you look

10:50

over his right shoulder there are those

10:51

familiar faces yes they are in front of

10:54

Donald Trump's adult son Eric he's the

10:57

blonde one he's standing in the back

10:59

there uh there are two Republican United

11:01

States senators J D Vance of Ohio and

11:04

Tommy tupperville of Alabama those two

11:07

senators came along with a republican

11:09

congresswoman from Staten Island and two

11:11

Republican State Attorneys General one

11:14

from Alabama one from I think

11:16

Iowa um to to keep Donald Trump

11:20

company this is becoming kind of a thing

11:23

in Republican politics to make a

11:25

pilgrimage to Trump's trial last week it

11:28

was Republican senator Rick Scott he's

11:30

up for reelection this year in Trump's

11:32

adopted hom State of Florida NBC News

11:34

has confirmed that former Republican

11:36

presidential candidate Vic ramaswami

11:38

will join Trump in court

11:40

tomorrow okay and the Craven desperate

11:45

politics of all this is embarrassing to

11:48

everybody who's watching it I mean many

11:50

of these folks are obviously hoping for

11:52

gigs and what they hope will be a second

11:53

Trump Administration JD Vance in

11:55

particular is desperate to be considered

11:58

for Trump's vice president but when

12:01

Senator Vance and Senator tupperville

12:02

left the courtroom today after a couple

12:04

of hours and headed for the cameras

12:06

themselves they made sure to tell

12:08

everybody that they were only there to

12:10

support their dear dear friend in

12:14

need I'm here for the simple reason to

12:16

show support for a friend luckily the

12:19

president's supporters should know that

12:20

he's actually in great spirits despite

12:22

the circumstances of this I'm here today

12:25

to represent and to pay my respects to

12:28

what president Trump is going

12:29

through it's a tough time for him that

12:32

courtroom is depressing this is New York

12:35

City icon of our country and we got a

12:39

courtroom that's the most depressing

12:41

thing I've ever been in mental anguish

12:44

is trying to be pushed on the Republican

12:47

candidate for the president of United

12:49

States this year that's all this is

12:51

Republican candidate for president of

12:53

United States is going through mental

12:55

anguish in a courtroom that's very

12:58

depressing very

13:00

depressing there is a little known

13:02

Constitutional Amendment which requires

13:05

a playful mobile to be put above

13:07

criminal defendants in courtrooms that

13:10

are particularly depressing it's like a

13:13

subset of the

13:14

ath at one point Senator Vance voiced

13:17

his concern that Donald Trump was being

13:19

made to feel quote

13:21

lonely because he isn't seeing crowds of

13:23

supporters every day outside the

13:25

courthouse that's because they're not

13:27

there but uh the Senators and the rest

13:30

of the gagle of Republican officials who

13:32

were at the courthouse today they all

13:34

echoed one of Trump's most common

13:35

complaints about his trial which is that

13:37

it's keeping him off the campaign

13:41

Trail he should be out on the campaign

13:43

Trail uh but of course he's here with

13:45

this trial our president Trump is tied

13:47

up in court when he should be out on the

13:50

campaign Trail this is simply an effort

13:52

to keep Donald Trump in New York city so

13:54

he can't go out and speak to the people

13:56

of this country about why he should be

13:58

re elected this President I should be

14:01

out campaigning now instead of sitting

14:03

in a very cold Courthouse all day long

14:07

it's not that cold um Donald Trump

14:10

should be out campaigning he should be

14:11

out barnstorming the swing States that's

14:14

what of course he would be doing if he

14:16

were not trapped at this trial that's

14:18

the line right here's the problem it is

14:21

true that Trump is required to be in

14:23

court when it is in session he is after

14:25

all a criminal defendant but that's only

14:27

maximum 4 days a week sometimes it's

14:30

only three days a week and on those

14:32

other days when Court isn't in session

14:33

the former president is mostly not

14:36

campaigning most of his non-trial days

14:38

he's been hanging out at his Club in

14:40

Florida or staying home in New York or

14:44

New Jersey as his his right but it

14:47

remains this strange and easily

14:50

disprovable thing that Trump and his

14:53

allies and quote friends are constantly

14:55

saying that he would be out campaigning

14:57

if he weren't in court that is easily

15:00

disproven by the observable fact that

15:02

when he is not in court he is mostly not

15:04

doing

15:06

that to be fair he did have one big

15:08

rally this weekend in New Jersey that is

15:10

a state that has not voted for a

15:12

republican for president since 1988 but

15:15

hey Hope Springs Eternal it does have

15:17

the advantage of being a quick quick hop

15:19

skip and a jump from from Trump's New

15:21

York apartment so maybe that was the

15:22

reason he did it but meanwhile President

15:26

Biden is running what you might call

15:27

counterprogramming president Biden is

15:30

actually doing what Trump says he wants

15:32

to be doing he is hitting the swing

15:34

States repeatedly Wisconsin Pennsylvania

15:36

North Carolina Joe Biden even hit

15:38

Trump's backyard in Florida last month

15:40

and while Trump has made his trial the

15:43

centerpiece of his campaign now to the

15:45

point where Republicans have to come and

15:47

sit in court with him in order to show

15:49

their support President Biden basically

15:52

never mentions the trial he barely even

15:54

mentions who his opponent in the

15:56

election is he talks up his administ 's

15:59

accomplishments he talks up how his

16:01

accomplishments will help the people of

16:03

whatever swing state he's

16:05

in like much of the Biden presidency it

16:07

feels like an act of radical normaly in

16:10

the face of what's going on on the other

16:11

side of American politics and now the

16:13

other side of the presidential

16:15

contest whatever else can be said about

16:18

this presidential election the two

16:19

candidates are running wildly different

16:21

campaigns and especially on a day like

16:24

this it feels like they are running

16:26

frankly on wildly different planets just

16:28

let let's bring in our colleague Jen

16:29

saki she's the host of inside with Jen

16:32

saki here on MSNBC she's the veteran of

16:34

many campaigns she's former White House

16:36

Press Secretary for President Biden Jen

16:39

thank you so much for being with us

16:40

tonight I wanted to make sure we were

16:41

able to talk to you um let let me ask

16:44

you there I feel like there's this there

16:46

was this pre-trial sort of

16:49

punditocracy common wisdom that Trump

16:52

was going to not only sell a lot of

16:54

merch with his mug shot on the merch

16:59

this was going to be a political Bonanza

17:01

for him I feel like to the extent that

17:03

we can see anything in the polling it's

17:05

showing that the trial isn't changing

17:07

things much one way or the other in

17:09

terms of views of either of the two

17:11

candidates how are the politics of this

17:14

trial being made

17:16

manifest well we don't know yet I will

17:19

say one additional detail you didn't

17:21

mention but is my favorite from last

17:22

Wednesday is that Trump spent time

17:24

dining with people who gave spent about

17:27

$10,000 on nfts and they got to get a

17:30

piece of his suit and a piece of his tie

17:33

that's how he spent the day campaigning

17:34

so there you go I think on the polling

17:37

of it it hasn't impacted people yet we

17:39

know from polling we've seen that if he

17:41

is convicted that the polling has showed

17:43

that it could impact people and how they

17:45

view him we will see but if you look at

17:48

the contrast here Rachel I mean Joe

17:51

Biden is out there I think one of the

17:52

best things he's done recently is that

17:54

event in Wisconsin where he ba basically

17:56

went to a state and went to a place

17:58

foxcon where Trump made a promise about

18:00

jobs that he couldn't deliver on didn't

18:02

deliver on that had a little Edge to it

18:04

you need a little Edge to break through

18:06

these days so that was a good thing uh

18:09

but there's got to be more of that too

18:11

in order for Biden to continue to kind

18:12

of make progress in this campaign the

18:15

most and you touch on this and went over

18:17

it and this is the thing that stuck out

18:18

to me so much about today is this sort

18:20

of sesow but it's not a sideshow of

18:23

these Senators it's so strange seeing JD

18:25

Vance and Tommy tuberville in New York

18:28

it was like a we's Waldo moment like

18:30

there they are oh there they are in back

18:32

of him at this press conference but it

18:34

tells you so much because as you said

18:37

not only did they stand there they went

18:39

out afterwards and then they put out

18:40

things in social media because they're

18:42

looking for approval from Trump and that

18:45

adds to what we've seen over the last

18:47

couple of weeks which is one people who

18:49

want to be the vice presidential running

18:51

mate or in the cabinet uh saying

18:54

confirming they don't think Trump lost

18:56

the election in 2020 two we've started

18:58

to see a number number of people

18:59

recently in the last couple of weeks on

19:00

a number of shows suggest expect the

19:02

outcome of the election in 2024 that's

19:05

replaying the game again and this is the

19:07

third piece I mean we're going to see a

19:08

tomorrow how crazy will that be I don't

19:10

know yet we will see but that is a piece

19:12

of this that tells you so much about his

19:14

own political power even if we're not

19:16

clear about where the polls between the

19:18

two candidates are going to be at the

19:19

end of this trial yet and can I just I

19:21

mean if you like imagineer a world in

19:25

which Republican politics is not

19:27

rotating around the axis

19:29

of Donald Trump what are the politics

19:32

what's the political impact of these

19:34

sitting senators and very ambitious

19:36

Republican politicians making sure that

19:39

they are seen inside of what they are

19:41

decrying as a very depressing New York

19:44

City courtroom I mean they're putting

19:46

themselves in state criminal court as a

19:48

way of trying to get themselves before

19:50

the American people so that this is

19:51

where we imagine them I mean this is

19:53

just it's it it may be one thing to try

19:56

to get Trump's favor but this exists in

19:59

its own right in terms of how they are

20:01

displaying themselves what they how how

20:03

they want us to think of their mil in

20:05

politics um and how they want us to

20:07

think of them when it comes to criminal

20:09

defendants in the criminal process well

20:11

they think it's a winner for them

20:13

politically to some degree to hug and to

20:16

align themselves with Trump and perhaps

20:18

in their states it is uh you know JD

20:20

Vance he's not up for re-election this

20:22

year Tommy tuberville he does a lot of

20:25

crazy things but he's he's Alabama Trump

20:27

is quite popular there right so for them

20:30

it might be a win among their

20:32

constituents but it also tells you that

20:34

that they don't think that standing by

20:36

and attending the criminal trial of a

20:38

former president who by the way is there

20:41

because of his role in paying hush money

20:43

to a former adult film star that that's

20:45

not going to hurt them politically that

20:47

it won't result in a primary race per

20:49

their assessment that it only helps them

20:51

among the base and that tells you so

20:53

much about kind of where the Republican

20:55

party and the base of the Republican

20:56

party is the other thing and you've

20:58

talked about this a lot as well over the

21:00

course of time on your show is it it

21:02

also tells you that these people are

21:03

saying I know that you had enablers in

21:05

2020 I'm raising my hand I'm happy to be

21:09

there and enable you in 2024 should you

21:11

want to question the outcome of the

21:13

election whatever the outcome you know

21:15

if you lose the election that's what

21:17

they're that's the message they're

21:19

sending by being there and by answering

21:21

questions as many have over the past

21:23

couple of weeks suggesting they won't

21:26

necessarily commit to respecting the

21:28

outcome of the election that's right

21:30

they're saying put me in coach when it

21:31

comes time to try to subvert American

21:34

democracy potentially do something that

21:37

is criminal in order to hold on to power

21:39

against American against the

21:41

Constitution against Democratic

21:42

principles I want you to call on me and

21:44

I'm willing to stand with you in the

21:46

criminal Docket in order to do it I'll

21:49

serve yeah it's the it's the law it's

21:51

the Law and Order party obviously um J

21:53

saki thank you so much for joining us my

21:55

friend much appreciated um as I

21:57

mentioned at the top joining us now

21:58

Suzanne Craig from The New York Times

22:00

and Ari melbour our esteemed legal

22:02

correspondent here Suzanne you were

22:03

there at the courthouse today I know

22:05

you've been there every day um Michael

22:07

Cohen to me following the reporting

22:10

today looking at the transcript once it

22:11

came out I feel like he really is

22:14

functioning as a summation witness it's

22:17

not just about Michael Cohen's own role

22:20

in the plot it feels like he's telling

22:22

us everything that happened he's giving

22:24

us the whole story does it feel that way

22:26

in court it it it did he interesting

22:29

that he's he's coming at the end and I

22:30

saw it a little bit differently because

22:32

I felt while he did that they also kept

22:35

him very much I think three parts they

22:37

kept him very much to the evidence he

22:39

was a cooperating witness for a lot of

22:41

testimony that has come so what he said

22:44

today some of it was familiar I think

22:46

that's a good thing because his

22:47

credibility is going to be questioned on

22:49

Cross he also spoke to the documents you

22:52

know we heard that not only did Donald

22:54

Trump instruct the payment to Stormy

22:56

Daniels get made but then they went in

22:59

and they talked about it in the office

23:01

so he had some additional um testimony

23:04

along those lines because the documents

23:07

and he's going to speak to some of them

23:08

I think again tomorrow but they don't

23:10

get you too intent but I really do feel

23:13

that they wanted Michael to come in and

23:15

really I just didn't come in and back up

23:17

a lot of what's been heard I found that

23:20

the testimony today was incredibly quick

23:23

there were so many yes no questions fast

23:26

yes ma'am no ma'am they weren't creat a

23:29

narrative like they did with David

23:30

pecker at the beginning David pecker was

23:32

an incredible tour guide through all of

23:34

it Michael Cohen it was very fast and

23:37

sometimes we were having even trouble

23:38

keeping track of the dates it was yes no

23:41

yes no if we got to a meeting boy did we

23:43

want to know something more about that

23:45

meeting there was no can you elaborate

23:47

on that they wanted I just don't I think

23:49

they know what's coming on cross and

23:51

they don't want him to say anything

23:54

outside of kind of the four quar oh

23:56

they're limiting what he says so that he

23:59

can't be turned I really felt that they

24:00

were he he became more comfortable too

24:03

once he got up on this down but he was

24:04

very nervous um at first um so they I

24:08

felt they kept them moving I actually

24:10

thought they wanted to finish today it

24:11

was going that quickly obviously we're

24:13

going to head in tomorrow with more

24:14

direct but then the cross is going to

24:16

open but I just don't think they wanted

24:18

to open the door for anything because

24:19

they know the storm that's coming AR

24:21

right in terms of looking ahead to that

24:23

cross I was in interested in your uh

24:25

special coverage today uh you had a

24:27

guest on who was very uh bullish on the

24:31

defense um and said that you know

24:33

Michael Cohen's going to get destroyed

24:34

on cross-examination he also repeatedly

24:36

called you Arie including at the end

24:38

saying in a very performative way AA La

24:41

Vista Ary and I was like is he actually

24:43

trying to start a fight with Ari right

24:45

here is this going to be a fist to cuffs

24:47

moment on MSNBC so Ary um it was a weird

24:51

thing um looking ahead toward that

24:54

cross-examination do you feel like

24:56

Michael Cohen has um has glass jaw here

24:59

that he has shown himself to be

25:01

vulnerable in a way that is inviting um

25:03

a real beating from the from the defense

25:05

not glass but maybe recently smelt clay

25:10

okay he he has some holes and I think

25:13

they will get to that and the lawyer you

25:14

mentioned defended Donald Trump at the

25:16

second impeachment which if you're

25:18

picking is the worst one so that's where

25:20

he's coming from although I was happy to

25:21

get his views because it's interesting

25:22

but that's the perspective I think the

25:25

issue for for Michael Cohen on Cross

25:27

will be overall credibility because they

25:30

will get into the criminal record and

25:31

the story did change and then raising

25:34

doubt that he might have gone Rogue the

25:36

he went rogue story is far-fetched but

25:39

they don't need to prove it they just

25:41

need to raise the doubt that it could be

25:42

true I did think to to Echo what we were

25:45

just discussing there have been days

25:47

where defendant Trump looked unseemly um

25:49

certainly did not look relatable looked

25:51

untrustworthy I thought today Michael

25:54

Cohen and the way they did this

25:55

testimony this is the day that Donald

25:57

Trump looked

25:58

most like a criminal I thought it was a

26:00

very bad day for him because his own

26:02

lawyer who famously went to prison very

26:05

clearly provided the timeline of a

26:08

proactive plan to allegedly commit a

26:10

crime that sounded familiar because that

26:13

firm was also stiffed by years stiff two

26:16

years prior by Donald Trump we get the

26:18

recording that was played for the jury

26:21

because Michael Cohen has to cover up

26:23

for Donald Trump's stiffing Ami on the

26:27

payment for Karen dle and so he's making

26:29

the recording to a sure Ami eventually

26:32

will pay you I mean all of these things

26:33

are a cascading series of screwing

26:38

people um for lack of a better term in

26:41

terms of their bills why are they giving

26:43

us that as a pattern because it speaks

26:47

to the Ebenezer Scrooge energy of Donald

26:49

Trump but why is that bad why is that

26:51

bad for the defense why is that good for

26:52

the prose it's good for the prosecution

26:54

because it feeds into the concept of the

26:56

evidence which says that Donald Trump is

26:57

a penny pinching miserly person who will

27:00

always count his pennies and Chris's

27:02

Point earlier about the fact that you

27:04

cannot present a

27:06

$420,000 approved invoice for essential

27:09

Consultants LLC Allah you know Michael

27:12

Cohen when all he did was front $130,000

27:15

but what you just did right now in this

27:17

you could just get up do closings at

27:18

this point Rachel you proved how

27:21

effective Michael Cohen is think about

27:24

this Donald Trump always said famously

27:26

where's my Roy con there's a reason why

27:28

he wanted Roy con Roy was indicted four

27:31

times Roy also in U represented John

27:34

Gotti if if Michael Cohen was so bad at

27:37

his job Trump wouldn't have ever kept

27:39

him around right and because of the

27:41

effectiveness of him dealing with the

27:43

cheapness of Donald Trump Donald Trump

27:47

kept Michael Cohen and that's the reason

27:49

why you NE Donald Trump never wanted a

27:51

good attorney he wanted a flaw attorney

27:54

he saw that in Michael Cohen he tested

27:56

Michael Cohen with that bill from

27:58

Michael Cohen's original Law Firm and

28:00

when he stiffed Michael Cohen's original

28:01

Law Firm and Cohen jumped at the

28:03

opportunity Donald Trump said here's my

28:05

new to put it in a sentence they're

28:08

saying Donald Trump wouldn't pay

28:10

$400,000 unless he authorized it yeah

28:13

right because the defense is going to be

28:15

Cohen and weiselberg went rogue and he

28:17

didn't this is this is a big this penny

28:19

pinching thing is going to come up was

28:21

he or not because the defenses I think

28:23

their main thing is going to be those

28:25

two went rogue yeah and he was just he

28:27

didn't see it much more to come in our

28:28

coverage of the Trump criminal trial

28:30

today in New York including what

28:31

happened when Michael Cohen asked Donald

28:33

Trump directly about what happened with

28:36

Stormy Daniels uh the answer Cohen says

28:39

he got which the defense is not going to

28:41

like and is not going to want to explain

28:43

uh and more when we come back stay with

28:45

us welcome back to our Prime Time recap

28:48

of the criminal trial of former

28:49

president Donald Trump prosecutor I will

28:52

take you back for a minute now to 2011

28:54

when you Mr Cohen first learned about

28:57

Stormy Daniels account of her encounter

28:59

with Mr Trump had you learned at that

29:01

time in 2011 about what Ms Daniels did

29:04

for a living Michael Cohen I did

29:06

prosecutor what did you hear at that

29:07

time in 2011 about what she did for work

29:10

Cohen that she was an adult film star

29:13

prosecutor and this came up again I

29:15

think you mentioned because it was an

29:16

article on theed dirty.com at the time

29:20

Cohen correct question and you worked

29:23

with Keith Davidson to get that article

29:24

taken down answer yes ma'am question in

29:27

2011 when you were engaged in doing that

29:29

in getting the article taken down did

29:30

you have a conversation with Mr Trump

29:32

about Stormy Daniels answer yes question

29:36

can you tell us in general the gist of

29:37

that conversation answer after I

29:40

received the information from Dylan

29:41

Howard I immediately went to Mr Trump's

29:43

office knocked on the door and said boss

29:45

I got to speak to you and I told him

29:47

about the conversation the sum and

29:48

substance of the conversation that I

29:50

just had with Dylan Howard and I asked

29:52

him meaning I asked Trump if he knew who

29:55

she was he told me that he did and I

29:58

stated about the story that existed on

30:00

the dirty.com that they'd had a

30:02

relationship that occurred during a golf

30:04

outing going back to like 2006 and I

30:06

told him that one of the things that you

30:08

know we need to do is we need to

30:09

obviously take care of it question did

30:12

Mr Trump also tell you anything about

30:14

having met her at the gulf tournament

30:16

back in 2006 answer yes question what

30:20

did he tell you answer he told me that

30:22

he was playing golf with Big Ben

30:25

rothberger the football player and they

30:27

had met Stormy Daniels and others there

30:30

but she liked Mr Trump that women prefer

30:33

Trump even over someone like Big

30:36

Ben question and did you ask him at that

30:39

time in 2011 whether he had had a sexual

30:42

encounter with Stormy Daniels answer I

30:44

did question did he answer you directly

30:48

answer no ma'am question did he mention

30:50

anything about what she looked like

30:52

answer he said she was a beautiful woman

30:58

quick break for a

30:59

shower and we're back this adds to the

31:02

Litany of testimony at the trial thus

31:04

far that

31:06

supports at least circumstantially the

31:08

contention that stormmy Daniels was not

31:10

lying that a sexual interaction did

31:13

happen between her and Donald Trump why

31:15

do we have so much testimony to that end

31:18

in this trial and what does it do if

31:21

anything for the prosecution's case

31:23

Chris well I think first of all the

31:25

Michael con that little detail about

31:28

bger really leap off the page when I

31:29

read it today because that part of

31:32

stormmy Daniel's testimony was so

31:34

memorable that he introduces you know

31:37

her to rossberger and then then she has

31:39

to like sort of push him out of her room

31:41

the next night we also know that then

31:43

Rossburg settled a civil claim for

31:46

sexual assault with a woman who says

31:48

that he sexually assaulted her which he

31:50

denies at that same golf tournament in a

31:52

different year so like there's that part

31:54

of it which is that it was the same golf

31:56

tournament it was the same golf

31:58

same golf tournament different year so

32:01

uh the same place so that that lights up

32:04

I think the memory of the jurors in

32:06

terms of corroborating like everyone's

32:07

going to remember if Ben rothberger is

32:10

around and Trump's going to talk about

32:11

it and stormy Daniel's going to talk

32:12

about it the other thing is just that

32:14

the

32:15

again the underlying facts here being

32:17

corroborated do seem really important in

32:21

terms of the motive for covering it up I

32:23

do think you would be more concerned

32:24

about a true allegation than a false one

32:27

probably

32:28

and particularly true allegation that

32:30

there might be other people around who

32:32

could have cooperated like if you're

32:33

poing around at a at a golf tournament

32:36

so it seems to me that that establishes

32:38

that Katie so we always look for pattern

32:40

and practice when we talk about some

32:42

legal Concepts and the common

32:43

denominator that we're hearing always is

32:45

Dina Dorman allegedly had a story about

32:48

Donald Trump fing a love child that's a

32:50

sex act right Karen McDougall had a a

32:53

yearslong affair with Donald Trump

32:55

allegedly that's a sex act stormmy

32:57

Daniels had a one night stand with

32:58

Donald Trump allegedly that's a sex act

33:00

it's all the common denominator of

33:03

something that Donald Trump

33:04

theoretically according to him just

33:06

being Locker talk locker room talk you

33:08

wouldn't be ashamed about that right you

33:10

just say hey it's a whole bunch of

33:11

people doing locker room talk it just

33:13

completely feeds into the idea that he

33:15

was doing all of this hush money

33:17

payments for Dino all the way to stormmy

33:20

to make sure that once he made it into

33:22

the White House according to him what

33:23

did he say right it doesn't make a

33:25

difference if it made to the White House

33:26

it doesn't make a difference which is

33:27

why he booted Michael Cohen when he made

33:30

it to the White House he didn't need

33:31

Michael Cohen anymore because he made it

33:33

across the finish line which is just

33:34

completely supports the Trump campaign

33:36

being the beneficiary not the personal

33:37

part although can I just note something

33:39

because it stuck out to me today when I

33:41

was following it which is that it's also

33:43

the case that way before he's even

33:44

running for office in 2011 when the

33:46

article ends up on the dirty.com

33:48

actually named dirty.com

33:51

he's like we got to take get it taken

33:53

down like there's a certain level of

33:56

reputational protection that's the back

33:59

now they're not M for it I think that to

34:01

me is what so stands out about the

34:05

enti course my point being Celebrity

34:08

Apprentice you could want to suppress

34:09

that stuff for non-campaign reasons and

34:12

clearly did in 2011 to me what's so

34:14

distinguishing about the scheme as given

34:17

by the prosecutors is the timing and the

34:18

amount of money at stake and I would put

34:21

it a little even more simply he's on

34:24

trial for lying right that's what fraud

34:26

is business fraud is lying and then in

34:28

service of what a campaign crime and so

34:31

we talk about low information voters

34:33

sometime there's that term people who

34:35

aren't following the news every night

34:36

like we are and many people in America

34:39

viewers are um jurors are supposed to be

34:42

low information citizens if they're

34:44

super high information they are probably

34:46

not on we covered the questioning of

34:48

them and so the other thing that's

34:49

happening here is very simple most of

34:52

these jurors have not followed all of

34:55

this really closely maybe they know

34:57

Michael Cohen name they probably don't

34:58

know Karen mcdougall's name or David

35:00

Pecker's name or many other things that

35:01

we've all been following and so for lowi

35:03

information jurors if you can show this

35:07

is Trump's chosen environment and these

35:10

are the stream of lies and some of the

35:12

lies were not crimes that's okay you

35:16

know they're going to get instructions

35:17

on that uh that's this has got to be

35:19

fair to the defendant and some of the

35:21

alleged lies are alleged crimes because

35:24

you can't just go around and take 130k

35:27

and call it 420 and and lie to the

35:29

government and cheat you're not allowed

35:31

to do that Suzanne as you are watching

35:32

this day after day and putting yourself

35:34

in the mind I think it's a very good

35:35

point AR about how you're not only

35:38

picking people who necessarily aren't

35:40

the highest information people but then

35:41

the jurors are instructed do not watch

35:43

any news about this do not watch the

35:45

MSNBC recap of this do not pay attention

35:48

to any discussion about this only focus

35:50

on what is being given to you as

35:52

evidence in this courtroom seeing it

35:54

laid out in the courtroom is it cogent

35:56

it is oh no it's a it's a powerful story

35:59

and I I actually still come back to

36:01

David pecker and just what a great tour

36:02

guide he was at the beginning because he

36:04

was able to lay it out from beginning to

36:06

end and he spoke to Trump so he was

36:09

talking to Trump he sort of Michael Coen

36:12

was sort of the goete and I think he

36:14

effectively set him up at the beginning

36:16

and then we get to the end now and we've

36:18

got Michael Cohen and I keep thinking

36:20

when when you were talking about the jur

36:22

one thing we haven't talked about is the

36:24

tape that came in where you've got

36:26

Donald Trump talking about the payment

36:29

and he's like pay it in cash and Michael

36:31

Cohen's like no no no and the reason

36:33

that he was like no no no he explained

36:35

it today because he wanted to have a

36:37

record so that it could look like a

36:39

legitimate business transaction if they

36:41

he thought it would look too dodgy if it

36:43

was a suitcase right and then yeah and

36:45

then he explains well I was taping it

36:48

because he he he according to him he

36:50

wasn't taping it because he didn't trust

36:52

all the participants which maybe he

36:53

shouldn't have he was taping it so he

36:55

could tell David pecker that was going

36:57

to deliver on this that Trump intended

37:00

to pay him he keeps telling me he's

37:02

going to pay you I can prove it I'll

37:04

secretly tape him saying it but it's

37:05

just a good reminder that not everything

37:07

today was sort of it's Michael Cohen

37:09

narrating a lot of things including

37:11

tapes with Donald Trump yeah we're going

37:13

to try to turn around that tape for you

37:15

if just a moment we've got much more of

37:17

our special prime time that was me

37:19

talking to the control room breaking the

37:20

wall here just for a second hey you guys

37:22

can we get that tape yeah more roer C

37:25

comes up in just a moment now we come to

37:27

the the telephone records another woman

37:29

whose story threatened to tank the Trump

37:31

campaign we've still got lots more ahead

37:33

from Michael C's testimony today stay

37:35

with us welcome back to our recap of the

37:38

criminal trial of former president

37:40

Donald Trump one of the things that

37:42

happened today in Michael Cohen's

37:43

testimony is that he described the

37:45

circumstances under which he made a

37:48

recording of himself speaking to his

37:50

boss speaking to Donald Trump it was a

37:53

recording of an in-person meeting he

37:55

walked into Trump's office with the

37:57

Voice Notes app on his phone recording

38:00

while he either held his phone or had it

38:02

in his pocket or near his pocket the

38:04

reason he said he made the recording is

38:06

because David pecker from American Media

38:09

expected to be paid back

38:12

$150,000 that American Media had

38:15

Advanced to a woman named Karen

38:17

McDougall who had claimed that she had

38:19

had a long affair with Donald Trump Ami

38:22

as part of its alleged scheme with

38:24

Donald Trump to suppress negative

38:26

information about him in order to

38:28

benefit his campaign had paid McDougall

38:32

ostensibly to do some work for their

38:34

magazine Empire but really so that they

38:37

would own the life rights to that story

38:39

about Donald Trump and make sure that

38:40

that story never saw the light of day

38:43

now at some point after Ami had Advanced

38:46

that money Cohen and Trump according to

38:48

Trump decided excuse me according to

38:50

Cohen decided that they would purchase

38:54

those rights from Ami they would

38:57

effectively reimburse Ami for having

38:59

made that outlay of cash but in so doing

39:02

they would buy those life rights thems

39:05

and for a while they talked about

39:08

including in that purchase price the

39:10

treasure chest of information that

39:13

American Media had accumulated over time

39:16

about the life and loves of Donald Trump

39:19

a locked drawer reportedly full of

39:21

information about Trump they thought for

39:23

their 150 Grand they could get the Karen

39:25

McDougall rights they could get all the

39:28

Trump stuff they were worried to get

39:29

that information because Cohen testified

39:32

today that David pecker the head of this

39:34

magazine Empire they believed was going

39:36

to get a different job at time

39:38

Incorporated he was going to leave that

39:39

would mean David pecker their friend and

39:41

protector the member of this conspiracy

39:44

with them was going to leave behind at

39:46

Ami all of that information about Trump

39:48

in that locked door wouldn't that in

39:50

that locked drawer wouldn't that be

39:52

terrible somebody else might get it

39:54

wouldn't it be better if we owned that

39:56

ourselves so here's Michael Cohen and

39:58

Donald Trump in a recording that Cohen

40:00

made without Trump knowing in a meeting

40:03

in Trump's

40:07

office I've spoken to Allan weiselberg

40:10

about how to set the whole thing up U

40:13

with so what are we

40:15

funding yes um and it's all the stuff

40:21

all the stuff because you know you never

40:22

know where that company you never know

40:23

where he's going to be correct so I'm

40:26

I'm all over that and I spoke to Allan

40:28

about it when it comes time for the

40:29

financing which will be L what financing

40:33

we'll have to pay you so no no no no no

40:36

no I got no no no

40:38

check no no no no no not cash check why

40:43

I check let's bring into the

40:44

conversation our colleague Lisa Rubin

40:45

who is at the courthouse today uh also

40:48

Katherine Christian former assistant

40:49

District Attorney At The Manhattan DA's

40:50

office thank you Miss Christian for

40:51

being with us um Lisa let me let me ask

40:54

you first of all if I characterize the

40:56

context of that recording correctly yeah

40:59

um and when they say pecker might get

41:02

hit by a truck what they mean is pecker

41:05

might no longer be the custodian of what

41:06

we believe is negative information about

41:08

Trump so we should own that ourselves

41:10

correct okay why does or is it is it

41:13

clear to you why it matters that Trump

41:16

is suggesting making this payment in

41:18

cash um even though Cohen um argues

41:22

against that well for starters Trump

41:25

doesn't want a record of it the exact

41:26

same reason reason that Cohen is saying

41:28

let's cut a check because I want to

41:30

protect Trump with a record is the very

41:32

same reason that Donald Trump is begging

41:34

him to use cash because he wants no one

41:36

to know about it at all but I think the

41:39

larger import of the tape is not about

41:41

the cash or check it's about situating

41:43

Donald Trump at the center of this

41:45

scheme and showing that not only did he

41:47

join the conspiracy but that he was

41:49

involved in each and every plan to

41:53

execute on that conspiracy by repaying

41:55

for Karen mcdougall's settlement on one

41:57

hand and then later on paying stormmy

41:59

Daniels himself when you talk about

42:03

paying for something in a way that is

42:05

untraceable or communicating about

42:07

something in a way that is untraceable

42:09

is that to a jury or you know to to a

42:13

court of law is that potentially

42:15

evidence of knowledge or criminality I

42:17

think it is I mean but again let's

42:19

remember that here what the actual crime

42:21

that's being alleged here is

42:22

falsification of business records and so

42:25

this tape doesn't necessarily move the

42:27

needle about the falsification and

42:29

Donald Trump's own knowledge and

42:31

involvement in that on the other hand it

42:33

shows his motive to be involved in that

42:36

cover up because he was directly

42:38

involved in the crime itself right okay

42:41

so it's not that this so This goes to a

42:43

larger point that we've been talking

42:45

about tonight all of us which is that

42:48

there is no viable if the prosecution is

42:50

doing his job there is no viable

42:53

counternarrative that uh Michael Cohen

42:56

was acting alone that Trump had no idea

42:58

any of this was happening rather the

43:00

prosecution is presenting a picture of

43:02

Michael Cohen's actions as situated in

43:05

and and connected to and integral with

43:08

Trump's own actions right Katherine yeah

43:10

and the and it also goes to intent and

43:12

the judge is going to instruct the jury

43:14

that the definition of intent it was the

43:16

defendant's conscious objective to cause

43:18

a result so motive intent consciousness

43:21

of guilt what gets me about this

43:23

relationship it wasn't an attorney

43:25

client relationship it was a master

43:26

servant no offense to Mr Cohen so of

43:29

course these weren't legal expenses

43:30

because this was not really an attorney

43:32

I mean that the prosecution will

43:34

probably not argue that but this really

43:36

was not an attorney client relationship

43:40

I don't know again we keep coming back

43:41

to this idea that you don't you know the

43:43

the burden of proof correctly

43:45

constitutionally is is on the

43:46

prosecution I just feel like and again

43:49

maybe I'm thinking of this in a way that

43:50

it's not the median juror because I'm

43:52

exposed in a different way to it but I

43:54

do need something to hang on to that's

43:56

an alternate story for all this stuff I

43:59

mean you could raise doubts about it but

44:00

I mean like in order to empathize with

44:01

the defense in order to think that this

44:04

it wasn't exactly what it looks like I

44:06

guess I just sort of feel like okay

44:08

let's say you g you gave me some theory

44:10

that con went rogue this was cooked up

44:12

by wisel Bri and con like maybe that

44:14

seems plausible and they wanted to do it

44:16

for the boss but then like I need

44:18

something about why Trump writes in the

44:21

chest right like I need I can give it to

44:23

you okay but it's not very strong go

44:25

ahead if you admit the

44:28

misdemeanor yeah business fraud it's on

44:31

paper CFO you lied but you say when

44:35

Cohen did all this and and the defendant

44:38

sitting in the white house he then felt

44:40

like paying him back so it's partly the

44:42

Rogue but it's all after the fact if you

44:44

move the decision which is still bad

44:46

later after the fact you might and tell

44:48

us what you think help raise doubt

44:51

against whether it was contemporaneously

44:53

Consciousness intent at the time before

44:56

election day which means again I'm not

44:58

here doing free legal services they

45:00

already have their plan which means you

45:02

admit the misdemeanor which is a common

45:04

defense tactic when you have a bad case

45:06

then you postdate the other action and

45:08

that allows for the fact that it could

45:10

be true that you reimbursed him and will

45:13

Donald Trump allow his defense attorneys

45:15

to say your honor we want you to

45:17

instruct the jury on the Lesser included

45:19

offense of falsifying business records

45:21

in the second grade don't you think that

45:22

would be in new yorkt he allow his

45:24

lawyers to essentially plead guilty to

45:25

the misdem well not plead guilty you're

45:28

adting basically and then he would be

45:31

again assuming the jury says you know

45:33

what we don't think it's you know the

45:35

higher we don't we don't know where the

45:36

intent to conceal and another crime is

45:38

but he did intent to defraud and then

45:40

there's 34 misdemeanor convictions as

45:43

opposed to fell but don't you think if

45:44

you have a defendant who's not consumed

45:46

by ego that's a better instru I would

45:49

give my client the client say who right

45:53

if this had been me I would have pled

45:54

guilty day one and it would all be over

45:56

by now yeah all right our recap of the

45:58

action today in the Trump criminal trial

46:00

continues to be clear I didn't do it

46:03

we'll be right back stay with us

46:09

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