Fundamentals of LPVOs: Cheap vs Expensive

hey guys thanks for tuning in to another

video on forgotten weapons.com I'm Ian

McCollum I'm here at Shot Show 2024

today joined once again by Mr Mike

Branson of Gideon Optics uh Mike is a

huge Optics nerd with experience in a

couple of different uh companies you

were with uh primary arms for a while

you were with swamp Hawks for a while

and now you're doing your own new

startup here yeah with Gideon Optics

yeah we've been in here we did Pistol

dots last year and then uh this year

we're expanding and I've got a new pvo

here so let's talk about lpos okay so

there's a lot of lpos out there yes

there are and some of them are really

cheap and now there's one

more and some of them are really

expensive yes and I look at this and I'm

like okay I can look at magnification

range and the

weight and those are like the only

quantifi I can think of so do I spend a

lot of money on a high-end one am I

going to get features like what features

can I get improved by throwing money at

lpvo right

versus what you know there's a whole

bunch of lenses in there and there's

going to be some stuff that's just

dictated by physics right where a 10,000

well not 10 $2,000 sometimes 10 now okay

it's yeah ask ask Sig with the new nsgw

optic oh there it is I mean it's got a

laser piggyback thingy on top of it but

there that's that's 11 Grand to pop

thanks Uncle Sam so what is what is

there that you know Gideon can do just

as well as s

versus versus not yeah exactly yeah so

uh right

so that's yeah it's a it's a simple

question with a again a complicated

answer right and this is the part where

uh the internet guys expect me to pound

my chest and go just as good just as

good right but let's have a real

conversation about it let's you know I

want to contribute to forgotten

weapons the best I can let's talk about

what things what things are really like

and that and

so the first thing is you cannot defeat

math right math is math and so this is a

1 to 10 with a 34mm tube and a 28 millim

objective lens so it's a little bit big

it's a little bit heavy compared to a

30mm tube optic with a 24 millimeter

lens so why did I do the big heavy one

what's the problem with one to 10 they

get tied at 10 power I turn this thing

from one to 10 and I can't see through

it and I'm fighting it and it's a pain

in the butt to look through if I make my

tube a little bit Bigg ger I make my

internal lenses a little bit bigger I

make my objective lens a little bit

bigger and I'm smart with my Optical

design it's a little bit easier to see

through this one at 10 power than some

of the other lpv on the market and

that's something that I can accomplish

at our price level which this is about a

$400

lpvo um and it's got great glass it's a

true onx download does all the things

that I expect from an lpvo at that price

point and it's plenty tough uh you know

the aluminum is is the aluminum it's you

know it's got Quality Parts in it it's

going to do uh the toughness things that

we expect so why is it 400 bucks when a

when a a primary Arms 1 to eight

Platinum is 1,500 bucks and why is that

scope 1,500 bucks when a night Force

attacker is $1,000 more than that let's

talk about it excellent question yeah

there we go so now I've cirle around to

your question so uh the the primary arms

optic is a Japanese made optic this is a

Chinese made optic so the Japanese

Optics do have better glass they are

crisper uh they got a little bit more

light transmission um which doesn't

matter until it does if I'm shooting in

broad daylight uh I'm shooting a match

and uh you know even if it's cloudy

overhead I'm getting like 98% light

transmission through this optic I'm fine

it doesn't matter if I am on a hunt and

I'm running an lpv o on like an elk hunt

up north and I've spent a bunch of money

for that tag and a bunch of money for

the Outfitter and I've taken my two

weeks of vacation for the year to try to

bag an elk and the elk trots out there

and the sun has gone down and I don't

have night vision on this thing then I

need as much light Gathering as I can

possibly get and I'm going to want as

close to 100% light Gathering as I can

get if I spent that much money on that

elk hunt and I'm 15 grand into that elk

hunt to begin with go ahead and buy that

primary arms with a Japanese glass and

you'll get a little bit of a benefit you

might be able to see that out take that

shot get your trophy whatever right so

it's it's one of those things where it

doesn't matter until it does right so

the customer needs to decide how much

performance am I willing to pay for in a

realm of diminishing returns because I

can go way past even $3,000 and there's

valid reasons why a March scope will

cost that much for the guys that are

doing March scope stuff you know um they

demand that performance level it matters

to them for what they're doing you stick

me behind the rifle I see I can't really

be that much of a scope's knob you put

me behind a night Force attacker and I'm

like wow that's a really nice scope with

great glass but the light comes in

through the front it bounces around in

here and gets flipped and does all that

stuff it comes out the back here what's

the last thing the light hits before it

hits my eye by $200 set of glasses that

are all scratched to hell and I've

they're not even look I've got like a

rubber piece on this side and not on the

other side it goes through this before

it hits my eye so can I even perceive

the difference between an attacker and a

Vortex J not really not with these

eyeballs not with the stuff that I'm

doing but someone can and it's worth

extra money to them so I had that same

experience hunting where a scope that I

thought in fact in this case it was this

whole Scout scope concept oh gosh and on

the Range it was fine it worked and then

I discovered actually hunting the

percentage of times when the sun is is

very low and it's either coming pretty

close to in this way or pretty close to

in this way and now there's problems

with the whole Scout scope concept but

that never happened you know I didn't go

zero the rifle at 6:30 in the morning

right so if I'm going to take this to a

two gun match that's going to be in the

day in Arizona yeah do a desert

brutality with it or something right

could probably put Vaseline on the front

of the lens and still do fairly well

I'll get plenty of light through it yeah

but that's different than the hunting

application so so there there are

differences are you willing to pay for

them you know another difference is

retical illumination so this is a second

focal plane uh lpvo so second focal

plane is the one where um no matter how

I zoom in or out relative to the field

of view inside my scope the reticle is

always the same size so that means that

my bullet drop that goes out to 600

yards on this is only going to be valid

at 10 power right if I have it sets at

six and I try to take a 400 yard shot

with my reticle I'm it's a Miss every

time right right so then there's first

focal plane reticles we're going to have

one of those I worked on it for two

months I was obsessed with it and we'll

have a 1 to eight in second focal plane

like this and a 1 to eight in first

focal plane and the problem with the

first focal plane lpv is that when you

go to one power the middle of that

reticle disappears right it's just gone

down to just a big SI ah right so then

what you do is you crank your

illumination all the way up to 11 and

you use it like a Red Dot right if you

have the night Force attacker the the

Razer gen 3 the primary arms that I

mentioned doesn't have that refractive

reticle illumination that's why they're

at a $1600 price point those retical by

themselves are stupid expensive okay

they are incredibly expensive to get

that diffractive illumination that

nuclear bride illumination and I don't

have that so I have to crutch it in some

other way um I have to design my reticle

very care carefully so it can be seen at

one power without the sort of benefit of

uh the $2,500 price level amazing

nuclear Brite

illumination do you need the nuclear

Brite illumination because you've got a

first focal plane scope and it's your

goto um you know do or die then yeah

it's a really good idea to have that

right not not totally frivolous right

it's not frivolous but I've had good

used 4x4 trucks that cost me less than a

night Force attacker right there's

there's there's a an opportunity cost to

all of this right you know and bluntly

uh a mutual friend of ours uh does have

an attacker and on a very nice lwrc gun

and he saved up money for like five

years to build his ultimate AR and then

he took it out and he's with match great

ammo he's hitting like four M MOA and

he's like what's wrong with it is it my

Mount you know I'm like no you got a

$250 mount on there it's not your Mount

Well's is it my ammo no it's not your

ammo

it's that you saved up money for 5 years

and got no repetitions on rifle and you

don't know how to shoot you could have

bought a $400 lpvo and built a skill set

and gone and shot matches and you'd have

four years of experience on how to pull

a trigger and you'd be that'd be a sub

rifle in the right hands but now you're

not the right hands because you spent

five years not shooting and saving up

money so you could be better and then he

kind of went oh crap yeah so what you

need to do is start going to matches and

get your butt kicked by guys with $400

lpos for a couple of years and then

you'll be worthy of the money that you

spent I've had some places where people

ask me for a recommendation and I will

recommend just the totally standard

basic like I'm looking for a good pistol

like you know what get a Glock find a

used Glock and it's not worth buying

something better until you can

articulate specifically what the better

thing will do that you need it to do yes

and I can very much see that being

appropriate foros if you're buying it

because you're favorite YouTube guy said

this is the one the Navy Seals used it's

your money but I know I I'm his money

yeah from being in that position I it

probably was not his money to paid for

it right exactly so yeah if you don't if

you don't know why this is worth more

money then do more research talk to

people that shoot you know all right so

ibox is a tricky thing the higher in

magnification you get the tighter that

eyebox gets that's right there's no way

that is physics like I could get a $200

scope off AliExpress and it's going to

have the same eyebox if the tube and the

magnification are the same physical size

it's really close there's a few little

tricks that you can pull with your

Optical design to try to maximize it but

basically you know the basic formula

which I think is uh you know opt uh

ocular lens diameter divided by

magnification that basic formula is math

you can't you can't defeat math and you

can go look at the different websites

look at the different manufacturers and

look at their spec sheets go on Optics

Planet and look at they've got specs for

all their Scopes what is the exit pupil

there's a shaft of light that comes out

the back of this optic what's the

diameter of that shaft of light I have

to line up my eyeball with that shaft of

light to look through it all of these 1

to 10 are 2.3 2.5 2.6 millimeters I'm

lining up a 2.6 millimeter shaft of

light with a 4mm puple in my eye yeah

that's going to be kind of slow and

picky you know at that magnification

right and that's why you see on

Precision rifles where they've got like

a five to 25 on there now we got a 25

magnification optic that's why Precision

rifles always have those cool adjustable

stocks where that there's a cheek and

you can you can tilt it just right and

you can extend it and it's got little

wheels everywhere that's so you can put

your face in the same time on the rifle

every time it's on the stock the exact

same way so your eye lines up with that

tiny little exit pupil the same way

every time and that's why Precision

rifles have those crazy expensive

adjustable socks okay the bigger your

magnification gets the worse it is to

look through the scope and there's no

there's no escaping that you cannot

negotiate with math math will win now

what about weight because there's

definitely I'm sure there's some way you

can save money on weight for

um so save weight with money save weight

with money uh yes and no

again so so you ever taken all the guts

out of a Glock frame and you're just

holding the plastic frame and you're

like oh this is nothing it's like it's

like paper in your hands it's so thin

that thin polymer a scope body without

the glass is like that okay if you have

this aluminum body and I don't have any

of the guts in it it's astonishingly

light it's amazingly light I filled it

up with big thick heavy chunks of glass

in the future someday I predict we'll

have fully multi-coated glass front

fully multi-coated glass rear and the

inside will be polymer

lenses one day because it doesn't matter

if they get they can't get scratched up

in here right not if the abrasion

doesn't matter because they're internal

right that will save us weight one day

but they can't do it yet because you

lose too much light transmission you get

distortions you get chromatic aberration

all the stuff that you don't want so

they're working on it but we're not

there yet that will save weight across

the board right now now all these lpv 1

to 6 1 to8 1 to 10 they're all pretty

much the same size and weight with one

exception and I have to give props to a

former employer of mine primary arms um

primary arms has a 1 to8 Platinum ja

Japanese made optic and they had a long

gestation period with that optic and

they basically challenged their Japanese

manufacturer and said we want to do lpvo

stuff can we make it smaller and lighter

and they they for years they've been

working on this and that optic just won

its first contract with the Department

of energy so the doe so the doe is

rocking primary arms now and it is

significantly smaller and lighter and as

far as I'm concerned it's witchcraft I

have no idea how they managed to

accomplish that but that what they did

was somehow somebody had a breakthrough

in Optical design Optical engineering

one of the real Engineers that has a

degree in the math figured out a way to

cut out a lens or to make a lens thinner

or to make a laminate lens where you

have it's one lens but it's really three

shapes inside it so it does the light

bending of multiple lenses I don't know

how um I should like buy one and take a

saw all to it and cut it in half and see

right but but that shows that it's

possible right so primary arms the first

one they got this one dat that's super

light and and and and it's shorter and

everything and apparently they didn't

give up anything it doesn't have bad

Optical qualities it doesn't have a

narrow depth of field it's a home run um

[Music]

these down the road the illumination

conks out guys have to call Bob at

customer service hey my illumination

won't work and then it's an RMA and they

get another optic from us right how do

we prevent that well we could do one

that's not illuminated at all and

there's less to go wrong okay right so

there's a there's cost and complexity

and those things but I don't think

weight is really that much of a factor

when it comes to illumination stuff it

really is the glass that's it's the

glass is so heavy um yeah it's such a

high percentage of the Optics weight so

what about repeatability of your

adjustments right is that how much of

that is involved in price point the

lowend ones really just as good no they

are not uh and and and we had a talk in

a previous video about quality control

yeah that's very true with with turrets

so these turrets are exposed locking

turrets I can't turn it I can't turn it

I have to pull it up and I can then have

tactile and audible clicks once I've

made my adjustment I can either set it

back to zero if I want to or I can just

push it down a lock it either way

whatever my preference is there's a

spline on here there where my outer

turret hits my inner turret and the

number of teeth on the spline is much

less than the number of adjustments that

I have on on this that's etched on the

outside of this turret right so if I

play with this enough and I have enough

permutations of taking it on putting it

off taking it on putting it off and

spinning this around I can get to where

I have my indicator on the scope body in

between two hash marks

on this optic right it's in between two

so it's between the number 44 and the

number

44.1 in a on10th you know mil adjusted

or half mo mo whichever whatever it

is in a $2500 optic

unacceptable right again does that mean

that they have that their five AIS CNC

machines are better than R5 AIS CSD

machines maybe but I have this Theory

once you really understand this it's

almost terrifying when you think about

the world economy and globally sourced

parts and our standard of living and and

what what we're making what we're paying

each other if I have a 5axis TNC machine

and it's at the Colt Factory in Hartford

Connecticut and I'm a I'm a unionized

worker making $35 an hour and at $35 an

hour I hit the start button it makes a

turret you know right it makes a part

that I programmed in that scene

I take that CNC machine and I move it to

koala lumur or I move it to French Guana

or I move it to Vietnam some place

that's that's you know was Communist and

is discovering capitalism I plug it into

a wall there in Vietnam and a guy who

makes $4 a day and feeds his whole

family on that by the way hits the start

button it doesn't say well I'm in

Vietnam now I'm going to make crappy

parts the CNC machine does not care it

makes the same part wherever you plug it

into any where in the

world let that sink in because it's a

little scary okay that's reality yeah so

I don't know that Vortex can make

turrets that are perfect every time for

their Generation 3 1 to 10 I do know

that their turrets are better than ours

because they're discarding all of the

imperfect ones they all go into a pile

of aluminum and a pile of stainless

steel and a pile of of of brass or

copper or whatever and then they melt

that stuff down and they try again right

it's the it's the discard pile and you

pay for all the discards when you pay

for the scope you're not just paying for

this one you're paying for all the parts

that they threw away getting you a more

high quality result so I don't know how

much of that is that their tooling and

their Machinery is better and how much

of that is that their QC is better but

either way if you want perfect turrets

you will pay through the nose for

perfect turrets so that really is an

area where money translates pretty

efficiently into better performance it

does if you actually need that

performance right because if if I'm at

if this is half MOA per click and I'm in

between two clicks then at 300

yards I have a 1.5 in shift depending on

if I'm at number 44 or at the hash Mar

next to it I'm 1.5 Ines off at 300 yards

do I care can tell I I don't right like

is was that the thing that made me go

there instead of there or was it wind

was it ammo was it my finger on the

trigger was it that my eye wasn't quite

behind you know there's like all these

other factors and if you're shooting PRS

and you're shooting these you know

Precision cost money what those guys are

spending tons of money to do is to

eliminate as many factors as possible so

then they can say aha I missed my wind

call not oh it could have been my Mound

it could have been my Parallax setting

it could have been this it could have

been that they want to spend money to

get rid of all those variables so then

they know which variables to focus on

you know for their for their application

if that's you then it's worth the money

to you to do that I'm happy as a clam to

take a 5.56 gun and ring steal at 600

yards before that caliber is totally out

of gas if I can get this gun to 600

yards on steel for $400 yes please sign

me up yeah I'll take it and think about

all the history that you've looked at

the amazing thing is how much progress

there's been made and how much higher

our expectations are massive look at

look at the history of what you've

you've done on the channel if I told

someone if I told your Channel

10 years ago that I'd have a parts built

AR that I you know got a piece from here

and a piece from there on Black Friday

sale and I cerakoted it and I have a

$400 Chinese made scope and I'm going to

shoot bulk Pack 55 grain you know PMC or

whatever and I'm G to hit it 600 yards

every time you would laugh in my

face generally speaking the accuracy

standard for World War II rifles was

about 4 Moa right maybe five or six in

some cases and the sniper rifles weren't

much better than that right I had a

friend who over spent a lot of money on

one of the original pu sniper the the

the MOs and the GS with a real pu on it

it's all numbers match everything he

spent a lot of money for it I said hey

how's it shoot and he said the Scopes to

help you see how much you missed

by yeah whoops which makes you wonder

about the svts are those things replaced

because the svts weren't accurate right

well and even on our side we had the M1

grand snipers and they weren't around

for very long because they that you know

it had a scope on it but the real world

performance just was nothing like what's

available to a civilian for you know you

could put one of these together now for

you know $1,200 in an AR like this and

and man you are golden compared to most

military weapons throughout the 20th

century you're golden so we're in an

amazing age right now even a lot of

military weapons currently in service

today when you get outside of like first

tier first world major militaries and

you look at what second and third world

countries have as actual military

issue it's rough this this the AI

generated stereotypical show AR yeah

this is a great AR it really is but I

asked I asked an AI bot to make me a uh

an image of an AR15 at Shot Show and it

came up with this so but even this would

blow away a lot of the stuff that's

being used in places around oh yeah well

I mean I I remember uh remember the

attack in bezan in in Russia right the

terrorist they blew up the school and

killed all these kids and they they they

they sort of they escaped and they ran

through the hinterland I had like a I

felt so guilty I felt personally guilty

because I W I'm obsessed by the footage

of this and I'm getting updates and I'm

watching it and these guys are like

chasing these guys with like iron

sighted SKS rifles terrorists that

killed children and they're they've got

a 10 ironsight at SKS and I'm I'm

thinking to myself I got better stuff in

my closet yeah oh no you know like I

felt guilty like like I felt so bad you

know they these guys have they have

nothing but that's that's kind of why I

do what I do you know to get on my soap

boox for a second I want the blue

collar ordinary dude who's got two kids

hi facel hi Kayla who are they trying to

figure out how they're GNA pay for their

college

and you know like they they got a job

that's not that great and they don't

like their boss that much I lucky I like

my boss they're working for the weekend

and they just want to ring some steel

and they want to compete

right they deserve they deserve to have

something at a at a high level the

second amendment applies to that guy he

has a right to defend his family has a

right to defend his life he has the

right to have fun with guns let's make

it fun and and if I can help those guys

buy into the Second Amendment I will the

Second Amendment is for you you can

afford this go do the thing it's it's

you can do amazing things with a rifle

like this with some practice and some

ammo go do it because the whole stop

being poor thing nothing makes me more

mad than that you know this so well if

you can't afford a $10,000 rifle then

just keep a baseball bat under your bed

and throw some ninja stars at him you

loser no the second amendment applies to

all of us and that's why I love this

startup mode this this budget area where

I'm at this is my Lane man uh I believe

in that down to my bottom of my feet you

know I think that's pretty clear to

everybody yeah I love it so anyway