See Michael Cohen's first reaction to Trump's historic guilty verdict | MSNBC Exclusive

MSNBC
30 May 202420:48

Summary

TLDRIn an interview, Michael Cohen, the prosecution's primary witness, discusses his relief and the lengthy process leading to the verdict in a major case involving former President Donald Trump. Cohen details the emotional and strategic aspects of the trial, highlighting the importance of accountability and justice. He critiques the defense strategy and reflects on his own experiences, including his time in prison and interactions with Trump. Cohen also addresses concerns about Trump's influence on his supporters and the broader implications for democracy and legal accountability.

Takeaways

  • 📚 Michael Cohen, former personal attorney to Donald Trump, gave his first interview after the verdict was announced in a case where he testified as the primary witness.
  • 🕵️‍♂️ Cohen expressed that he was not surprised by the verdict, emphasizing that the facts and documents spoke for themselves, despite media pundits' speculations.
  • 🎬 The case involved an illegal conspiracy to influence the election through payments falsely booked as funds for something else, which Cohen described as a six-year process for accountability.
  • 🏢 Cohen mentioned Allen Weisselberg and the involvement of Trump's Attorney General, Bill Barr, in attempts to stop the investigation after Cohen was imprisoned.
  • 👨‍⚖️ Cohen felt that justice, though delayed, was not denied as the verdict demonstrated accountability with 34 counts of guilty, which he believes America needs more of.
  • 🤔 Cohen speculated on Donald Trump's feelings post-verdict, drawing a parallel to his own sentencing and the difficulty of accepting the outcome.
  • 👥 Cohen criticized the defense strategy, suggesting it was influenced by Trump and was not effective, ultimately leading to a 34-count guilty verdict.
  • 🗣️ Cohen commented on his own demeanor during the trial, stating that he was calm and focused, despite the provocation and the media's portrayal of him as bombastic.
  • 📝 Cohen highlighted the importance of documentary evidence and corroborating testimony from others, which he believes supported his claims made over the past six years.
  • 🎥 The interview touched on the Access Hollywood tape and its impact on the case, with Cohen refuting the defense's argument that it was not a big deal and did not affect the campaign.
  • 🚨 Cohen expressed concern about the potential for violence in response to the verdict but did not believe it would happen, citing the strength of law enforcement and the public's investment in Trump.

Q & A

  • What is the significance of the six-year process mentioned in the transcript?

    -The six-year process refers to the lengthy legal journey involving Michael Cohen, who discussed accountability and his involvement in a case that started with his meeting with the District Attorney's Office and culminated in the recent verdict.

  • How did Michael Cohen react to the verdict?

    -Michael Cohen expressed that he was not surprised by the verdict, emphasizing that he had consistently stated that the facts and documents would ultimately prevail in the case.

  • What is the relationship between the Access Hollywood tape and the Stormy Daniels scandal as discussed in the transcript?

    -The defense argued that the Access Hollywood tape did not create new urgency to suppress the Stormy Daniels story, suggesting it was not a significant event. However, Cohen's experience contradicts this, as he was involved in damage control efforts following the tape's release.

  • What was Michael Cohen's role in the case described as an 'illegal conspiracy to influence the election'?

    -Michael Cohen was involved in payments made to benefit a campaign, which were falsely booked as funds for something else. He was the only person who got into trouble for this scheme, as indicated in the transcript.

  • How did Cohen describe his experience with Todd Blanche during the trial?

    -Cohen found Todd Blanche's questioning to be meandering and difficult to follow, which made it challenging to keep track of dates and events. He also perceived Trump's behavior in the courtroom as disrespectful to the jury.

  • What was the strategy behind Michael Cohen's demeanor during the trial?

    -Cohen's strategy was to maintain a calm and composed demeanor throughout the trial, both on direct examination and cross-examination, to ensure he was believable and consistent to the jury.

  • How did Cohen's lawyer describe his client's performance during the trial?

    -Cohen's lawyer praised his client for conducting himself remarkably well, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a consistent demeanor and connecting with the jury.

  • What was the impact of solitary confinement on Michael Cohen according to the transcript?

    -Solitary confinement had a profound effect on Cohen, causing him to learn to live in his own head and leading to a change in his temperament, making it easier for him to stay calm during the trial.

  • What was the defense's strategy in relation to Michael Cohen's testimony, and how did Cohen respond to it?

    -The defense strategy, speculated to be influenced by Trump, was to make the verdict a referendum on Cohen's credibility. Cohen dismissed this, stating that he only cared about the opinions of his family and close friends, and believed the strategy was foolish.

  • How did Cohen perceive the significance of the case involving Donald Trump?

    -Cohen viewed the case as important and legitimate, even though it may not hold the same weight as other cases involving national security or insurrection. He emphasized the need for accountability for Trump, as no one should be above the law.

  • What were Michael Cohen's thoughts on the potential reactions and consequences following Trump's conviction?

    -Cohen expressed concern about the potential for Trump to demand or expect his supporters to act in response to the conviction. However, he did not believe that the American people are as invested in Trump as he might think, and he trusted in the capabilities of law enforcement and the National Guard.

Outlines

00:00

🎥 Post-Verdict Interview with Michael Cohen

In this segment, Michael Cohen, former personal attorney to Donald Trump, gives his first interview after the verdict in a case where he was the prosecution's primary witness. The discussion revolves around Cohen's relief after six years of legal battles, his lack of surprise at the verdict due to his conviction in the facts and documents, and his reflections on the criminal scheme to influence the election through illegal payments. Cohen also addresses the broader implications of the verdict, emphasizing the importance of accountability for all, including former presidents, and shares his thoughts on Donald Trump's likely reaction to the verdict, drawing parallels to his own sentencing experience.

05:01

🤔 Reflecting on the Courtroom Dynamics and Strategy

This paragraph delves into the complexities of the courtroom proceedings, focusing on the challenges faced by Michael Cohen and his legal team in dealing with the prosecution's meandering questioning and the emotional strain of the trial. Cohen's attorney discusses the importance of maintaining composure and the strategy of staying calm under pressure, highlighting the significance of Cohen's demeanor in connecting with the jury. The conversation also touches on Cohen's solitary confinement experience and how it influenced his ability to manage his emotions during the trial. Additionally, there is a critique of the defense's strategy, which attempted to discredit Cohen, and an analysis of the impact of the 'Access Hollywood' tape on the case.

10:03

📚 The Importance of Documentary Evidence and Testimonies

Cohen emphasizes the role of documentary evidence and corroborating testimonies in establishing the truth of the case. He recounts his experience in London during the 'Access Hollywood' tape scandal and his efforts to manage the situation remotely. The discussion underscores the importance of text messages, emails, and other documents that supported Cohen's testimony and the narrative he has maintained for six years. The paragraph also addresses the public's perception of the case's significance compared to other legal issues surrounding Donald Trump and the need for accountability regardless of one's position.

15:05

👮‍♂️ Law Enforcement and the Future of Democracy

In this segment, the conversation turns to the broader implications of the verdict for the future of democracy and the potential for violence in response to the legal outcome. Cohen expresses skepticism about the likelihood of violence, citing the strength of law enforcement and the American people's detachment from Trump's narrative. He also discusses the potential for political maneuvers to shield Trump from legal consequences and the unprecedented nature of such actions. The paragraph concludes with Cohen's reflections on his own experience with the justice system and the importance of holding everyone accountable, including former presidents.

20:05

🚔 Confidence in Law Enforcement Amidst Legal Unrest

The final paragraph reinforces the confidence in law enforcement's ability to maintain order, particularly in New York, in the face of potential unrest following legal decisions. It highlights the professionalism and effectiveness of the police force and the National Guard, suggesting that these institutions are well-equipped to handle any threats to public safety. The paragraph also touches on the personal experiences of individuals involved in legal disputes and the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict and its consequences.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Verdict

A verdict is the decision made by a jury or judge at the end of a trial. In the context of this script, it refers to the conclusion reached in the trial involving Michael Cohen, indicating a series of guilty counts. The term highlights the culmination of a lengthy legal process and underscores the theme of accountability and justice.

💡Accountability

Accountability refers to the state of being responsible for one's actions and being subject to consequences. In the script, Michael Cohen emphasizes the importance of accountability in the justice system, mentioning how the six-year legal process has finally resulted in holding individuals accountable for their actions, reflecting a broader theme of law and order.

💡Prosecution

Prosecution is the legal party responsible for presenting a case against an individual accused of breaking the law. The script mentions the prosecution's efforts and the primary witness, Michael Cohen, who played a significant role in the case against Donald Trump, emphasizing the adversarial nature of the legal process.

💡Witness

A witness is someone who provides testimony based on what they have seen, heard, or know about a case. Michael Cohen, as the prosecution's primary witness, provided critical evidence and testimony in the case, reflecting the reliance on personal accounts and evidence in legal proceedings.

💡Guilty Counts

Guilty counts refer to the individual charges or accusations for which a person has been found guilty. The script details how there were 34 counts of guilt established in the trial, illustrating the severity and breadth of the illegal activities addressed in the case.

💡Legal Process

The legal process encompasses the procedures and activities related to the enforcement of laws, including investigation, trial, and sentencing. The script describes the extensive six-year process involving Michael Cohen and the district attorney's office, highlighting the complexity and duration of achieving justice.

💡Defense

The defense in a legal context refers to the arguments and strategies used by the defendant and their legal team to contest the charges. The script discusses the defense strategies employed by Donald Trump's lawyer, including questioning the credibility of Michael Cohen, which ultimately proved ineffective.

💡Testimony

Testimony is a formal written or spoken statement given in a court of law. Michael Cohen's testimony was central to the prosecution's case, providing firsthand accounts and evidence of the alleged crimes, underscoring the importance of witness statements in legal trials.

💡Cross-examination

Cross-examination is the questioning of a witness by the opposing party's lawyer. The script mentions Cohen's experience during cross-examination by Todd Blanche, focusing on his ability to remain composed despite attempts to provoke or confuse him, which is critical for assessing the reliability of a witness's testimony.

💡Justice

Justice refers to the fair and impartial treatment in the enforcement of laws. The theme of justice is prevalent throughout the script, with Cohen expressing relief and satisfaction that justice was finally served after a prolonged period, highlighting the moral and legal resolution of the case.

Highlights

Michael Cohen, former personal attorney to Donald Trump, discusses the six-year process leading to the recent verdict.

Cohen expresses no surprise at the verdict, emphasizing that the facts and documents speak for themselves.

Prosecutors described an illegal conspiracy to influence the election through payments falsely booked as funds for something else.

Cohen points out that he and Allen Weisselberg are the only ones held accountable for the scheme, despite others benefiting.

Bill Barr, Trump's Attorney General, allegedly told prosecutors to stop the investigation after Cohen was in prison.

Cohen feels justice, though delayed, was not denied as evidenced by the 34 counts of guilty.

Cohen speculates on Donald Trump's feelings post-verdict, drawing a parallel to his own sentencing experience.

Cohen criticizes Trump's courtroom behavior, suggesting it showed disrespect to the jury.

Cohen and his attorney discuss the difficulty of tracking Todd Blanche's meandering questioning during the trial.

Cohen's preparation for cross-examination focused on staying calm and focused, despite attempts to provoke and confuse him.

Cohen's lawyer emphasizes the importance of demeanor and the connection Cohen made with the jury.

Cohen reflects on the strategic necessity of staying cool and composed during the trial.

Cohen discusses the anxiety he felt about the trial's outcome and the importance of his testimony.

Cohen comments on the defense strategy, suggesting it was driven by Trump and was not effective.

Cohen dismisses the opinions of Trump and his family, stating he only cares about those close to him.

Cohen was in London during the Access Hollywood tape scandal, actively involved in damage control.

Cohen emphasizes the importance of documentary evidence and corroborating testimony in the case.

Cohen argues that the case is significant and should not be downplayed, despite other pending cases against Trump.

Cohen addresses concerns about potential violence or extralegal actions from Trump supporters post-verdict.

Cohen expresses confidence in law enforcement and the National Guard to maintain order.

Transcripts

00:01

GENERATIONS FROM NOW I DON'T

00:03

KNOW THAT WE WILL STILL HAVE

00:05

MOVIES, BUT THEY WILL BE THE

00:06

ONES HAVING BLOCKBUSTER

00:08

HOLOGRAMS MADE ABOUT THEM.

00:10

THANK YOU, MY FRIEND.

00:11

I KNOW WE WILL BE BACK WITH YOU

00:12

IN A MOMENT.

00:13

JOINING US ON SET FOR HIS FIRST

00:14

INTERVIEW SINCE TONIGHT'S

00:15

VERDICT WAS ANNOUNCED AS THE

00:16

PROSECUTION'S PRIMARY WITNESS

00:19

FROM THIS CASE, MICHAEL COHEN.

00:22

HE IS JOINED BY HIS ATTORNEY.

00:24

WE ARE THANKFUL TO YOU BOTH FOR

00:25

BEING HERE.

00:26

>> IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU ALL.

00:29

>> HOW ARE YOU?

00:31

>> I GUESS THE WORD IS

00:32

RELIEVED.

00:33

THIS HAS BEEN SIX YEARS IN THE

00:35

MAKING.

00:36

REMEMBER THE VERY FIRST TIME I

00:37

MET WITH THE DISTRICT

00:38

ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, WE TALKED

00:39

ABOUT IT WHEN I WAS ON YOUR

00:40

SHOW.

00:41

AFTER PUTTING OUT "DISLOYAL."

00:45

THE FIRST TIME I MET WAS WHEN I

00:49

WAS AN INMATE IN OTISVILLE.

00:50

THEY CAME UP TO SEE ME ON THREE

00:52

SEPARATE OCCASIONS, SO THIS IS

00:54

A SIX-YEAR PROCESS FOR

00:55

ACCOUNTABILITY TO FINALLY BE

00:57

HAD.

00:58

>> WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE

01:01

VERDICT?

01:01

>> NO, I WAS NOT.

01:04

I HAVE SPOKEN.

01:05

I'VE BEEN ON SO MANY OF THE

01:07

SHOWS AND I'VE TOLD YOU ALL

01:10

ALONG THAT THE FACTS SPEAK FOR

01:11

THEMSELVES.

01:12

THE DOCUMENTS SPEAK FOR

01:13

THEMSELVES.

01:14

I HAVE LISTENED TO SO MANY

01:16

PUNDITS COME ON THE SHOWS

01:18

INCLUDING THE HOST TALKING ABOUT

01:20

X, Y, AND THE.

01:21

THEY COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM

01:25

THE TRUTH.

01:26

I WOULD HAVE A CONVERSATION

01:28

WITH MY LAWYER AND SAY I DON'T

01:29

UNDERSTAND IT.

01:30

HOW COME THEY DON'T SEE THE

01:33

SAME THINGS WE ARE SEEING?

01:34

I UNDERSTAND THAT IT MAKES

01:38

GREAT HEADLINES AND SO ON, BUT

01:40

THE FACTS ARE THE FACTS AND AT

01:42

THE END OF THE DAY THE FACTS

01:43

ARE WHAT PREVAILED HERE.

01:44

>> YOU MENTIONED THE TIMEFRAME,

01:48

WHAT IT HAS BEEN FOR YOU,

01:50

BEFORE TONIGHT THERE WAS THIS

01:51

CRIMINAL SCHEME DESCRIBED BY

01:52

PROSECUTORS.

01:53

THIS ILLEGAL CONSPIRACY TO

01:54

INFLUENCE THE ELECTION.

01:55

PAYMENTS TO BENEFIT THE

01:58

CAMPAIGN.

01:58

BOOKED FALSELY AS FUNDS FOR

01:59

SOMETHING ELSE.

02:01

IT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED BY

02:03

MULTIPLE PROSECUTORS, BUT

02:04

TONIGHT THERE WAS ONE PERSON

02:06

WHO GOT IN TROUBLE FOR THIS

02:08

SCHEME.

02:08

YOU ARE NOT THE BENEFICIARY,

02:10

BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAD

02:14

BEEN IN TROUBLE FOR IT.

02:18

>> AS DID ALLEN WEISSELBERG.

02:22

>> TRUMP'S ATTORNEY GENERAL

02:23

BILL BARR TOLD ST Y TO STOP THE

02:26

INVESTIGATION AFTER YOU WERE IN

02:26

PRISON.

02:28

AFTER YOU GOT THE SHARP END OF

02:32

THAT STICK AND TO GET TRUMP'S

02:34

NAME OUT OF IT.

02:36

IT HAS BEEN EIGHT YEARS DOWN

02:36

THE ROAD.

02:37

I HAVE TO ASK YOU, YOU SAID

02:39

WHAT YOU FEEL ABOUT THE

02:40

VERDICT, BUT THAT IS JUSTICE

02:41

DELAYED.

02:43

IS JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE

02:47

DENIED?

02:48

>> CLEARLY NOT IN THIS CASE.

02:52

34 COUNTS, ONE AFTER ANOTHER,

02:54

AFTER ANOTHER, OF GUILTY.

02:56

IT IS ACCOUNTABILITY.

02:57

IT IS EXACTLY WHAT AMERICA

02:58

NEEDS RIGHT NOW.

03:00

WE NEED FOR ACCOUNTABILITY TO

03:02

BE HAD BY ALL THOSE WHO BREAK

03:05

THE LAW.

03:06

BECAUSE AS WE LIKE TO

03:08

CONTINUOUSLY STATE, NO ONE IS

03:10

ABOVE THE LAW AND TODAY'S

03:11

VERDICT DEMONSTRATES THAT.

03:13

>> HOW DO YOU THINK DONALD TRUMP

03:15

IS FEELING TODAY IN LIGHT OF

03:16

THIS VERDICT?

03:18

>> I CAN ONLY GO BACK TO WHEN

03:22

JUDGE POLLY SENTENCED ME TO 36

03:25

MONTHS.

03:25

YOU DON'T FEEL GOOD.

03:27

SENTENCING IS TERRIBLE.

03:29

I HAVE COURSE TOOK THE PLEA

03:31

THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME OR THEY

03:35

WERE FILING THE 80 PAGE

03:37

INDICTMENT THAT WAS GOING TO

03:38

INCLUDE MY WIFE.

03:39

IT NEVER FEELS GOOD.

03:40

I DID WHAT I HAD TO DO TO

03:44

PROTECT MY FAMILY.

03:45

THIS IS DIFFERENT.

03:46

DONALD DIDN'T LET IT GO IN

03:48

ORDER TO PROTECT HIS FAMILY.

03:49

HE TOOK IT ALL THE WAY AND

03:52

JUDGE MERCHAN, WHO IS AN

03:53

ABSOLUTE GENTLEMAN.

03:55

TO SEE HIM ON THAT STAND IS TO

04:00

SEE A MASTERFUL JUDGE WHO WAS

04:04

QUICK WITH DECISION-MAKING.

04:06

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY JUDICIAL

04:12

PERFECTION.

04:13

THE JURY HAD TREMENDOUS RESPECT

04:15

FOR HIM, AS DID I. WHICH IS

04:18

WHAT KEPT ME OFF MY SOCIAL

04:19

MEDIA.

04:20

IT WAS REALLY OUT OF RESPECT

04:22

FOR JUDGE MERCHAN AND THE

04:25

PROCESS THAT I DID EXACTLY THAT

04:31

AND THE JURY RESPECTS JUDGE

04:33

MERCHAN AND I BELIEVE A LOT OF

04:35

THE ANTICS THAT WENT ON IN THE

04:36

COURTROOM, WHETHER IT WAS BY

04:39

BLANCHE OR BY DONALD HIMSELF

04:41

WITH THE EYES CLOSING, THE

04:42

LEANING BACK, THE TOTAL

04:44

DISREGARD FOR THE JURY.

04:45

I DON'T THINK HE ENGENDERED ANY

04:47

POSITIVE FEELINGS BY ANYONE.

04:49

>> SOME PEOPLE SAID HE WAS

04:54

SLEEPING.

04:55

SOME PEOPLE SAID HE WAS RESTING

04:56

HIS EYES.

04:57

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT

05:01

INTERPRETATIONS.

05:01

YOUR INTERPRETATION IS THAT HE

05:03

WAS DISRESPECTFUL TO THE JURY?

05:04

>> YES, BUT I WAS NOT

05:05

CONCENTRATING AS MUCH ON HIM AS

05:08

I WAS TRYING TO KEEP TRACK OF

05:10

TODD BLANCHE'S MEANDERING

05:11

QUESTIONING.

05:12

THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT.

05:15

2018, 2019, 2020 AND TRYING TO

05:18

KEEP TRACK OF THE DATES AND

05:20

EVENTS WHEN YOU HAVE THAT TYPE

05:27

OF MEANDERING QUESTIONER.

05:28

IT IS NOT AN EASY PROCESS.

05:30

>> I WILL PUT THIS TO YOU AS

05:31

WELL.

05:32

IN PREPARING FOR THAT CROSS-

05:37

EXAMINATION FOR TODD BLANCHE,

05:39

DID YOU PREPARE EMOTIONALLY?

05:40

IT SEEMS LIKE FOR US JUST

05:42

WATCHING IT FOR THE COURTROOM

05:44

AND LOOKING AT THE TRANSCRIPT,

05:45

IT SEEMS LIKE A HERCULEAN

05:48

EFFORT TO STAY CALM AND WHAT

05:51

SEEMED TO BE DESIGNED TO

05:52

PROVOKE AND CONFUSE YOU?

05:54

>> A LOT OF OUR PREP FOCUSED ON

05:58

THE FACTS.

05:59

THERE IS SO MUCH PRIOR

06:01

TESTIMONY IN INTERVIEWS AND

06:02

STATEMENTS.

06:03

WE WANTED TO BE UP TO SPEED ON

06:06

THAT, REFRESHED.

06:07

>> THAT IS NOT AN ADVANTAGE

06:09

WHEN YOUR CLIENT HAS SPOKEN A

06:11

LOT IN PUBLIC.

06:12

>> HE HAS.

06:14

BUT YOU KNOW, IT WAS IMPORTANT

06:16

AND I EMPHASIZED THIS TO

06:21

MICHAEL.

06:22

HE CONDUCTED HIMSELF REMARKABLY

06:23

WELL.

06:24

I WANTED HIM TO UNDERSTAND THAT

06:27

HIS DEMEANOR MANNERED AND HE

06:30

NEEDED TO -- DEMEANOR MATTERED

06:33

AND HE NEEDED TO MAINTAIN THE

06:36

SAME ON DIRECT AND CROSS AND HE

06:38

DID THAT.

06:39

I SAW A CONNECTION BETWEEN HIM

06:41

AND THE JURY.

06:42

THEY BELIEVED HIM I THINK AND

06:44

THEY WERE JUST WITH HIM.

06:46

YES THERE WAS A LOT OF EMOTION

06:47

INVOLVED.

06:49

PAINFUL FOR ME AS HIS LAWYER TO

06:53

WATCH THE ATTACKS ON HIM.

06:55

85 TIMES HE WAS CALLED A LIAR.

07:00

HE IS NOT A LIAR.

07:02

HE HAS TOLD LIES AND ADMITTED

07:05

TO IT AND THE JURY BELIEVED HIM

07:08

AND RETURNED A SWIFT AND JUST

07:09

VERDICT.

07:10

I THINK ALL OF THE PREPARATION

07:13

WAS PUT TO GOOD USE.

07:16

>> THE STRATEGIC NECESSITY OF

07:21

YOU STAYING COOL AND HAVING

07:23

THAT SAME AFFECT AND

07:24

EVERYTHING, HOW HARD WAS IT?

07:25

>> NOT HARD AT ALL.

07:28

IT IS THE MEDIA THAT WANTS TO

07:30

PORTRAY ME AS A BOMBASTIC

07:31

CHARACTER.

07:31

>> WE HAVE ALL HEARD IT FROM

07:32

YOU.

07:33

>> BUT YOU HEARD IT FROM MY

07:36

PODCASTS.

07:37

IT IS A PERSONA FOR IT.

07:42

I CAN'T GO WITH INTELLIGENCE,

07:44

SO I HAVE TO GO WITH BOMBASTIC,

07:46

RIGHT?

07:47

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY MY

07:49

AFFECT.

07:50

YES I GET HOT TEMPERED.

07:52

YES WE HAVE HEARD THAT A COUPLE

07:55

OF TIMES HERE AND THERE WHEN I

07:59

WAS WORKING FOR MR. TRUMP.

08:01

THAT IS NOT GENERALLY MY AFFECT

08:05

AND IT WASN'T HARD.

08:07

I WILL TELL YOU THOUGH, 51 DAYS

08:08

OF SOLITARY CONFINEMENT CHANGES

08:09

ANYONE AND EVERYONE.

08:12

YOU START TO LEARN TO LIVE IN

08:15

YOUR OWN HEAD, WHICH IS A

08:17

DANGEROUS PLACE FOR ANYONE.

08:18

IT IS VERY EASY TO TURN AROUND

08:20

AND SAY I NEED TO PULL BACK ON

08:20

MYSELF.

08:22

I NEED TO PULL BACK ON GETTING

08:26

ANGRY AT THE NONSENSE OF TODD

08:29

BLANCHE.

08:30

AND IT WAS NOT AS DIFFICULT AS

08:32

I THOUGHT.

08:34

STAYING FOCUSED WITH HIS

08:36

QUESTIONING, THAT WAS MORE

08:37

DIFFICULT.

08:39

THE ANXIETY AND STEALING WITH

08:42

THE ANXIETY ON THIS WAS

08:43

DIFFICULT AS WELL.

08:45

>> WHAT KIND OF ANXIETY?

08:48

>> YOU KNOW, I AM NERVOUS.

08:51

I WAS NERVOUS BECAUSE SO MUCH

08:53

WAS RIDING ON THE RESULT OF

08:58

THIS AND I WANTED TO ENSURE MY

09:03

TESTIMONY WAS PERFECT.

09:05

AFTERWARDS WHEN THE WHOLE THING

09:08

WAS OVER, WE SAT AND SPOKE FOR

09:13

A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MY TESTIMONY.

09:17

AND COULDN'T UNDERSTAND SOME OF

09:22

THE CRITICISMS.

09:23

ONE MINUTE AND 39 SECONDS, HOW

09:25

COULD YOU POSSIBLY HAVE TWO

09:30

CONVERSATIONS?

09:30

YOU CAN, WHEN ONE IS NOT A

09:32

STATUS CALL, JUST AN UPDATE.

09:34

I WANT YOU TO KNOW EVERYTHING

09:35

IS TAKEN CARE OF, WE ARE GOOD.

09:36

THAT IS THE CONVERSATIONS THAT

09:37

TAKE PLACE WITH DONALD TRUMP,

09:40

NOT THIS LONG-WINDED --

09:41

INCLUDING THE TAPE I RECORDED

09:43

OF HIM, WHICH I TOLD YOU FOR

09:44

DAVID PECKER.

09:46

THAT WAS ONLY LIKE A MINUTE

09:51

AND CHANGE.

09:52

BUT THAT WAS A SUBSTANTIVE

09:53

CONVERSATION.

09:54

IMAGINE WHAT YOU COULD DO IN

09:58

1:39.

09:59

I THOUGHT JOSH STEINGLASS DID A

10:03

FABULOUS JOB PUTTING THAT 1:39

10:04

OUT THERE.

10:06

SUSAN HOFFINGER IS PHENOMENAL.

10:07

THE WHOLE TEAM, THE WHOLE

10:09

PROSECUTORIAL TEAM WERE

10:11

INCREDIBLE AS WE WOULD GO

10:15

THROUGH SOME OF THE DOCUMENTS.

10:17

SHE KNEW OFF THE TOP OF HER

10:19

HEAD MOST OF THE NUMBERS, MOST

10:21

OF THE EXHIBIT NUMBERS.

10:23

A VERY IMPRESSIVE GROUP OF

10:28

PEOPLE.

10:29

>> WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE

10:31

DECISION BY THE DEFENSE, AND WE

10:32

ARE SPECULATING A LOT OF THE

10:33

STRATEGY WAS DRIVEN BY TRUMP

10:34

HIMSELF.

10:35

WE ARE SPECULATING BECAUSE WE

10:36

DON'T KNOW, BUT IT FELT LIKE IT.

10:39

THEY MADE A STRATEGIC DECISION

10:40

TO MAKE THE VERDICT A

10:42

REFERENDUM ON YOU, INCLUDING

10:43

SAYING, BEING ADMONISHED BY THE

10:46

JUDGE FOR SAYING IT,

10:48

ESSENTIALLY THE LAST WORD TO

10:49

THE JURY, DO NOT SEND ANYONE TO

10:52

PRISON ON THE WORD OF MICHAEL

10:54

COHEN.

10:54

HOW WAS THAT FOR YOU AND WHAT

10:56

YOU MAKE OF THAT DECISION?

10:58

>> I DON'T REALLY CARE, NOR DO

11:01

I CARE WHAT TODD BLANCHE CARES

11:03

ABOUT ME.

11:04

WHAT I CARE ABOUT IS MY WIFE,

11:06

MY DAUGHTER, MY SON, MY

11:07

PARENTS, MY CLOSE FRIENDS.

11:10

THAT IS WHO I CARE ABOUT AND

11:15

WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT ME.

11:17

DANYA PERRY, I CARE WHAT SHE

11:18

SAYS ABOUT ME.

11:19

I DON'T CARE WHAT DON, IVANKA,

11:21

ERIC, DON JUNIOR, IT DOESN'T

11:23

MATTER TO ME WHAT ANY OF THEM

11:25

SAY ABOUT ME.

11:26

I KNOW WHO I AM AND I KNEW WHAT

11:29

I NEEDED TO DO, SO IN THIS

11:34

SPECIFIC CASE IT WAS A VERY,

11:37

AND I HAVE SAID IT, IT WAS A

11:41

VERY FOOLISH STRATEGY.

11:42

AND HE IS NOT REALLY KNOWN AS A

11:44

DEFENSE ATTORNEY.

11:45

I THINK IT IS ONLY THE SECOND

11:49

DEFENSE TRIAL.

11:50

NOT A GOOD STRATEGY AND PROOF

11:52

POSITIVE OF THAT IS THE 34

11:55

COUNT VERDICT.

11:56

>> THE DEFENSE COUNSEL WE ARE

12:00

TALKING ABOUT, TODD BLANCHE,

12:01

DID AN INTERVIEW ON ANOTHER

12:03

CABLE NEWS NETWORK THIS

12:03

EVENING.

12:04

I WILL LET YOU GUESS WHICH ONE.

12:07

HE SAID IN THAT INTERVIEW THAT

12:08

EVERY DECISION IN THE CASE,

12:11

EVERY SUBSTANTIVE DECISION IN

12:13

THE CASE IS ONE HE MADE

12:14

TOGETHER WITH TRUMP.

12:15

>> IT MAKES SENSE.

12:16

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK IF YOU

12:18

SEE TRUMP'S FINGERPRINTS ON

12:19

SOME OF THE DECISIONS YOU ARE

12:21

DESCRIBING.

12:22

>> ABSOLUTELY.

12:23

THE WORD, GLOAT, IT IS A DONALD

12:25

TRUMP, FOURTH GRADE, PLAYGROUND

12:27

BULLYING KIND OF TACTIC.

12:29

WHAT IS THAT?

12:31

>> DID YOU HAVE AN ACRONYM FOR

12:34

TODD?

12:35

>> I DID, THE STUPIDEST LAWYER

12:38

OF ALL TIME.

12:40

YOU CANNOT LISTEN TO YOUR

12:42

CLIENT WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO

12:46

CREATE A DEFENSE.

12:49

A DEFENSE THAT IS AS IMPORTANT

12:52

AS THIS IS THE VERY FIRST

12:54

PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,

12:55

FORMER PRESIDENT TO EVER BE

12:59

CHARGED WITH A CRIME, LET ALONE

13:01

CONVICTED NOW ON 34 COUNTS.

13:03

IT WAS DEFINITIVELY THE

13:06

STUPIDEST LAWYER OF ALL TIME.

13:08

WORSE THAN SOME OF THE OTHER

13:10

ONES THAT HE HAS, YOU KNOW, IN

13:11

HIS ORBIT.

13:13

IT MADE NO SENSE AT ALL AND ANY

13:16

GOOD LAWYER, IF HE WOULD HAVE

13:21

TRIED TO GET A HOLD OF DANYA,

13:24

SHE WOULD NOT LISTEN TO HIS

13:30

DESIRE TO CONTROL HOW THE CASE

13:32

WOULD PROCEED.

13:33

THAT IS NOT HOW YOU RUN A GOOD

13:34

DEFENSE.

13:35

I WOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED IT

13:37

IF I WAS STILL WITH HIM.

13:38

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT AN

13:40

ELEMENT OF THE DEFENSE THAT I

13:41

FOUND PUZZLING AS AN OBSERVER

13:43

AND IT WAS ABOUT THE ACCESS

13:44

HOLLYWOOD TAPE.

13:45

THE DEFENSE ARGUED THAT THERE

13:47

WAS NO NEW URGENCY FROM TRUMP

13:50

TO KILL THE STORMY DANIELS STORY

13:52

AFTER THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD

13:53

TAPE, BECAUSE IT WAS NO BIG

13:55

DEAL AND IT DIDN'T HAVE AN

13:57

IMPACT ON THE CAMPAIGN AND DID

13:58

NOT CHANGE ANYONE'S MIND SET

13:59

ABOUT THE POTENTIAL DAMAGE THAT

14:02

COULD BE DONE BY ANOTHER SEX

14:05

SCANDAL, PARTICULARLY A SEX

14:07

SCANDAL LIKE THIS.

14:08

THE REASON THAT WAS PUZZLING TO

14:11

A LOT OF US WATCHING IT IS

14:13

BECAUSE WE WERE ALIVE THEN AND

14:14

IT SEEMED LIKE A VERY BIG DEAL

14:16

THEN AND WOULD HAVE RATIONALLY

14:18

HAD AN IMPACT ON THE WAY THEY

14:19

WERE THINKING ABOUT POTENTIAL

14:21

DAMAGE ON THESE STORIES.

14:22

YOU WERE CLOSE TO DONALD TRUMP

14:24

OF THE TIME AND INVOLVED IN THE

14:25

RESPONSE.

14:25

HOW DOES THAT GO WITH YOUR

14:27

LIVED EXPERIENCE?

14:29

>> COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE

14:31

REALITY.

14:31

I WAS IN LONDON AT THE TIME,

14:34

VISITING MY DAUGHTER WHO WAS STUDYING AT QUEEN MARY

14:36

STUDYING AT QUEEN MARY

14:38

UNIVERSITY FOR THE SEMESTER.

14:41

IT WAS HER 21st BIRTHDAY, NOT

14:44

TO MENTION SEVERAL DAYS AFTER

14:46

WERE MY ANNIVERSARY, SO WE WERE

14:47

THERE, CELEBRATING AS A FAMILY

14:48

WHEN THIS THING HAPPENED.

14:50

I SPENT MOST OF THE VACATION

14:52

OUTSIDE OF THE RESTAURANT, ON

14:53

THE TELEPHONE WITH PEOPLE LIKE

14:57

HOPE HICKS AND OTHERS, TRYING

14:58

TO DO DAMAGE CONTROL.

15:00

THAT WAS DEMONSTRATED AGAIN BY

15:02

THE EVIDENCE, WHETHER IT WAS

15:05

TEXT MESSAGES OR, YOU KNOW,

15:06

CORROBORATING TESTIMONY.

15:07

THAT IS WHAT I HAD CONTINUOUSLY

15:11

SAID WHEN I WAS ON NICOLE'S

15:13

SHOW OR JOYS SHOW OR ANY OF THE

15:15

MSNBC SHOWS.

15:16

THIS IS A CASE THAT IS GOING TO

15:19

COME DOWN TO THE DOCUMENTARY

15:20

EVIDENCE AND THE TESTIMONY OF

15:22

OTHERS.

15:23

AND WHAT ULTIMATELY WAS

15:26

DEMONSTRATED WAS THE FACT THAT

15:29

ALL OF THE TESTIMONY BY THE

15:31

OTHER WITNESSES THAT I HAD

15:33

INVOLVEMENT WITH CORROBORATED

15:35

WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR SIX

15:39

YEARS AND ALL OF THE EVIDENCE,

15:42

THE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE,

15:43

EMAILS, TEXT MESSAGES,

15:44

DOCUMENTS THEMSELVES, AGAIN

15:45

CORROBORATED WHAT I HAVE BEEN

15:47

SAYING FOR SIX YEARS.

15:49

>> THIS CASE WAS, I THINK, NOT

15:53

DERIDED BUT DOWNPLAYED BY A LOT

15:55

OF PEOPLE WHEN IT BECAME CLEAR

15:57

IT WAS ONE OF FOUR CRIMINAL

15:58

INDICTMENTS IN FOUR DIFFERENT

15:59

JURISDICTIONS.

16:00

THIS WAS SEEN, I THINK, AS THE

16:03

LIGHTWEIGHT CASE.

16:04

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF

16:07

DISCUSSION IN THE MEDIA.

16:08

WE CALL THIS THE HUSH MONEY

16:09

CASE?

16:09

IS THIS AN ELECTION

16:10

INTERFERENCE CASE?

16:12

HOW DO WE SHORTHAND THIS?

16:14

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS CASE WAS

16:16

SUBSTANTIVELY IMPORTANT,

16:18

COMPARED WITH A CLASSIFIED

16:19

DOCUMENT CASE AND JANUARY 6

16:22

CASE AND THE OTHER ONES THAT

16:23

ARE PENDING THAT MAY NEVER COME

16:27

TO TRIAL, IS THIS ONE IMPORTANT

16:28

ON ITS OWN?

16:30

>> THE ANSWER IS YES IT IS, BUT

16:31

I MYSELF ON VARIOUS DIFFERENT

16:32

SHOWS OF SAID WHY ARE WE

16:34

LOOKING AT THESE CASES LIKE IT

16:35

IS THE KENTUCKY DERBY AND WE

16:37

ARE HANDICAPPING THE CASES?

16:40

IF IN FACT THIS WAS, IT WOULD BE

16:43

THE FOURTH MOST OBSCENE CASE

16:46

THAT DONALD IS BEING CHARGED

16:48

WITH.

16:49

NOW OBVIOUSLY THIS CASE DOES

16:54

NOT HOLD EQUAL WEIGHT TO THE

16:58

THEFT OF NUCLEAR SECRETS.

17:00

THE DOCUMENT, THE MAR-A-LAGO

17:02

DOCUMENT CASE OR THE

17:04

INSURRECTION, THE JANUARY 6

17:06

INSURRECTION.

17:06

IT JUST DOESN'T.

17:09

EVEN THE ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN

17:11

FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS.

17:13

NEVERTHELESS THIS IS AN

17:14

IMPORTANT CASE.

17:14

IT IS A LEGITIMATE CASE AND

17:17

WHILE I WOULD HAVE LIKED ALVIN

17:19

BRAGG TO HAVE BROUGHT IT A YEAR

17:23

EARLIER, BECAUSE IT WOULD'VE

17:24

BEEN GOOD FOR ME.

17:25

I WOULD HAVE BEEN, A YEAR

17:27

EARLIER, FINISHED WITH THIS, IT

17:28

IS AN IMPORTANT CASE.

17:31

IT IS A RELEVANT CASE.

17:33

IT IS AN ILLEGAL ACT THAT ANY

17:35

ONE OF US WOULD HAVE ALREADY

17:36

BEEN PROSECUTED FOR AND AGAIN,

17:38

SINCE NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW,

17:39

DONALD NEEDED TO BE HELD

17:41

ACCOUNTABLE, JUST LIKE ANY OF

17:42

US.

17:43

LIKE I WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

17:45

THE DIFFERENCE, I TOOK

17:46

RESPONSIBILITY.

17:47

>> I WILL SAY TO MY COLLEAGUES,

17:50

I AM BEING UNCOOL AND NOT

17:52

LETTING YOU IN HERE.

17:53

I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION I WANT

17:54

TO ASK YOU.

17:58

A LOT OF THE REASON THAT I THINK

18:02

THIS IS BEING GREETED THE WAY

18:04

THAT IT IS ACROSS THE COUNTRY,

18:05

THREE INCH HEADLINES ON EVERY

18:08

NEWSPAPER IN THE COUNTRY.

18:10

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE

18:13

EVERYONE IS TOTALLY ENGAGED IN

18:17

FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS.

18:19

THE ACTUAL DETAILS OF THIS IS

18:22

NOT WHAT IS DRIVING IT.

18:23

WHAT IS DRIVING AT IS THAT HE

18:25

IS THE FIRST PRESIDENT

18:26

CONVICTED OF A CRIME AND WHAT

18:27

IS HE GOING TO DO?

18:31

WE ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT

18:33

TRUMP MAY DEMAND OR EXPECT HIS

18:35

SUPPORTERS TO DO IN RESPONSE TO

18:35

THIS.

18:36

THE EXTRALEGAL PRESSURE THAT HE

18:37

BRINGS TO BEAR ON EVERY

18:39

SITUATION WHEN HE FEELS

18:42

VICTIMIZED NOW.

18:44

FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

18:47

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT YOU

18:50

THINK ABOUT THAT, HOW YOU

18:52

CALIBRATE THAT AND HOW YOU HAVE

18:53

DEALT WITH WHAT I KNOW HAS BEEN

18:55

THE ANXIETY AROUND THE THREAT

18:57

LEVEL FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

19:01

>> I KNOW HE HAS THE SERIES OF

19:03

REPUBLICANS WHO SHOW UP TO

19:05

COURT WITH HIM, TO PASS A LAW

19:08

WHEREBY HE CANNOT BE HELD

19:10

LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR ANY

19:11

CRIME.

19:12

I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYTHING

19:14

LIKE THIS.

19:16

HE HAS HIS OWN SET OF

19:19

CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS THAT NONE

19:22

OF US ARE AFFORDED THE SAME.

19:25

THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ALL NEW

19:27

LAW CLASS FOR THESE POOR LAW

19:28

STUDENTS RIGHT NOW.

19:29

THEY WILL HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER

19:30

COURSE.

19:33

MAYBE DANYA WILL BE TEACHING

19:37

IT.

19:38

WILL HE LOOKED TO CREATE

19:39

VIOLENCE?

19:39

SURE.

19:39

WILL IT HAPPEN?

19:40

I DON'T THINK SO.

19:41

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE

19:45

AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE AS INVESTED

19:48

IN HIM AS HE BELIEVES.

19:50

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN WHAT

19:52

HAPPENED WITH THE OATH KEEPERS,

19:54

STEWART RHODES, 18 YEARS.

19:57

I SPENT 13 MONTHS AT OTISVILLE.

20:00

A SATELLITE CAMP.

20:02

51 DAYS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

20:05

I ASSURE YOU, NOBODY WANTS THAT

20:07

FOR THEMSELVES.

20:08

SO NO ONE IS GOING TO GO OUT

20:12

AND DO SOMETHING STUPID,

20:14

ESPECIALLY LET'S SAY IN NEW

20:15

YORK.

20:15

WE HAVE THE GREATEST LAW

20:18

ENFORCEMENT IN NEW YORK.

20:20

OUR MEN AND WOMEN IN BLUE, THE

20:21

BEST.

20:22

THEY ARE ALSO GREAT IN ALL OF

20:25

THE OTHER CITIES AND ALL OF THE

20:27

OTHER STATES IN OUR COUNTRY.

20:28

THEN WE HAVE THE NATIONAL GUARD.

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Trump ConvictionLegal AccountabilityAmerican DemocracyPolitical ScandalElection InterferenceHush Money CaseMSNBC ShowsLegal StrategyCriminal IndictmentJustice System
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