"TIME OUT!" Alan Dershowitz And Mustafa Barghouti Debate Aaron Bushnell and Israel-Hamas

Piers Morgan Uncensored
4 Mar 202435:34

Summary

TLDRThe video script revolves around a heated debate regarding the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, particularly the situation in Gaza. Professor Cornell West faces scrutiny for his tweet labeling a protester who self-immolated outside the Israeli embassy as a martyr, drawing comparisons to historical figures. Contrasting viewpoints clash, with West defending Palestinians' right to resist occupation and Alan Dershowitz accusing Hamas of using human shields. The discussion escalates as they exchange arguments about terrorism, genocide claims, and the potential for a ceasefire, revealing deep ideological divides on this complex issue.

Takeaways

  • đŸ‘€ Professor Cornel West defended Aaron Bushnell's self-immolation as an act of 'extraordinary courage' and a protest against the 'genocide' of Palestinians in Gaza.
  • ⚖ There was a heated debate on whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute 'genocide', with West accusing Israel of enabling genocide while others disagreed with the use of that term.
  • đŸ‡”đŸ‡ž Mustafa Barghouti, a Palestinian leader, claimed that Israel's actions amount to 'genocide, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing', citing high civilian casualties and destruction in Gaza.
  • đŸ‡źđŸ‡± Alan Dershowitz, an Israeli advocate, argued that Israel is acting in self-defense against Hamas terrorism and denied claims of genocide, accusing Hamas of using human shields.
  • 📟 Kamala Harris, the US Vice President, called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza for at least six weeks, highlighting the 'immense scale of suffering' there.
  • 🔝 The debate centered around the definition of 'genocide', the use of human shields by Hamas, the proportionality of Israel's response, and the release of hostages as a condition for a ceasefire.
  • đŸ’„ Both sides accused each other of propagating lies and misinformation regarding the conflict, leading to a heated and emotional exchange.
  • đŸ•Šïž There were calls for a peaceful resolution to the conflict, with some advocating for Hamas to follow the path of non-violence as embraced by leaders like Martin Luther King Jr.
  • 📚 Historical accounts and interpretations of events, such as the 1948 partition plan and the origins of the conflict, were also debated.
  • 🌐 The debate highlighted the deep divisions and polarized views surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both internationally and within the United States.

Q & A

  • What was the main controversy surrounding Cornel West's tweet about Aaron Bushnell?

    -Cornel West referred to Aaron Bushnell, who set himself on fire outside the Israeli Embassy in protest, as displaying 'extraordinary courage and commitment.' This drew criticism from many who felt West was glorifying Bushnell's act of self-immolation, which some viewed as the action of someone mentally disturbed.

  • How did Cornel West justify his characterization of Aaron Bushnell's actions?

    -West likened Bushnell's act to moral witnesses like Cato the Younger killing himself to protest the fall of the Roman Republic. West argued that Bushnell was bearing witness to the 'suffering of precious Palestinians in Gaza' and called attention to what he described as a 'genocide' taking place.

  • What was Ben Shapiro's criticism of Cornel West's tweet?

    -Ben Shapiro criticized West for celebrating the 'pseudo heroism of disturbed people lighting themselves on fire,' arguing that such celebration facilitates 'dangerous insanity' in society and puts mentally disturbed individuals at risk.

  • How did Cornel West respond to the criticism of his tweet?

    -West stood by his characterization of Bushnell as a 'martyr,' arguing that trying to bring attention to genocide is a 'higher cause' worth paying the ultimate price for. He also accused his critics of being indifferent to the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza.

  • What was Alan Dershowitz's main argument against Cornel West's claims?

    -Dershowitz argued that West's use of the term 'genocide' to describe Israel's actions is a form of Holocaust denial and a disgrace, given that Israel is simply trying to defend itself. He also accused Hamas of using human shields and maximizing civilian casualties, while Israel tries to minimize them.

  • How did Mustafa Barghouti respond to Dershowitz's claims?

    -Barghouti denied that Hamas uses human shields, calling it 'Israeli propaganda.' He argued that the high civilian casualties in Gaza, including numerous children, constitute genocide, ethnic cleansing, and collective punishment by Israel.

  • What was the position of Vice President Kamala Harris on the conflict?

    -Harris called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza for at least six weeks, citing the 'immense scale of suffering' there. This was part of a negotiated deal being discussed at the time.

  • What was the main point of contention between Dershowitz and Barghouti?

    -A key disagreement was over whether Hamas uses human shields and civilian infrastructure for military purposes. Dershowitz claimed Hamas does this and cited a quote from a Hamas leader, while Barghouti vehemently denied it and called it 'Israeli propaganda.'

  • What was the proposed solution to the conflict being discussed?

    -The proposed solution being discussed involved a six-week ceasefire, coupled with the release of Israeli hostages held by Hamas and potentially moving towards a longer ceasefire agreement.

  • What were the main points of disagreement between the participants in the discussion?

    -The main points of disagreement included: whether Israel's actions constitute genocide, the use of human shields by Hamas, the legitimacy of Hamas as a resistance group, the historical context of the conflict, and the conditions for a lasting ceasefire and peace agreement.

Outlines

00:00

đŸ—Łïž Discussion on Aaron Bushnell's Self-Immolation and Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

The paragraph opens with Cornell West defending his statement praising Aaron Bushnell's self-immolation as an act of courage and commitment to bearing witness to the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza. West draws parallels between Bushnell and historical figures like Cato and argues that his critics are indifferent to the genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza. He maintains a moral stance, stating he will acknowledge courage in calling attention to the suffering, even through self-harm.

05:00

đŸ”„ Debate on Hamas, Terrorism, and Israeli Occupation

West and the interviewer engage in a heated debate about Hamas, terrorism, and the Israeli occupation. West argues that Hamas emerged as a counterterrorist group in response to Israeli terrorism and occupation, while the interviewer contends that Hamas is a terrorist organization committing acts of mass terrorism. West criticizes the indifference of Western leaders to Palestinian suffering and their enabling of genocide, while the interviewer accuses West of promoting violence and being biased against Israel. The discussion becomes intense, with both sides defending their positions.

10:02

⚖ Discussion on Genocide, Civilian Casualties, and Moral Consistency

The discussion turns towards the definition of genocide and whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide. West maintains a moral consistency, stating that he would condemn the killing of innocent people by any organized army, including Israeli troops, Hamas, or others. He argues that the intent and execution of genocide must be considered, and that Hamas emerged as a response to decades of Israeli occupation and terrorism. The interviewer accuses West of promoting violence and dismissing Hamas' terrorist actions, leading to a heated exchange.

15:03

đŸ‘¶ Debate on Children Casualties and Use of Human Shields

The discussion centers on the casualties of children in Gaza and the accusation that Hamas uses human shields. Mustafa Barouti, a Palestinian leader, accuses Israel of killing thousands of Palestinian children and committing genocide, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing. Alan Dershowitz, an Israeli advocate, argues that Hamas recruits and uses children as human shields, citing a quote from a Hamas leader. Barouti denies the claim, accusing Dershowitz of repeating Israeli propaganda. The debate becomes intense, with both sides presenting their perspectives on the treatment of civilians and children.

20:03

đŸš« Debate on Hamas' Use of Human Shields and Civilian Casualties

The debate continues over the accusation that Hamas uses civilians as human shields by building tunnels around schools and hospitals. Barouti denies the claim, stating that Hamas builds tunnels to protect civilians from Israeli airstrikes, similar to the Vietnamese during the American War. Dershowitz cites a quote from a Hamas leader praising the use of human shields, leading to a heated exchange over the credibility of the claim and the extent of civilian casualties caused by each side.

25:06

â˜źïž Discussion on Ceasefire, Hostage Release, and Hamas' Future

The discussion shifts towards the proposed ceasefire and the release of hostages. Dershowitz agrees with the American and British plan for a six-week ceasefire coupled with the release of hostages and disabling Hamas from returning to power. Barouti also agrees that Israeli prisoners should be released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners but argues that Palestinians have a right to struggle for freedom from occupation and oppression, following the path of leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. The debate centers on the conditions for peace and the future role of Hamas.

30:09

đŸ€Œ Heated Debate on Historical Narratives and Use of Human Shields

The debate intensifies as Barouti accuses Dershowitz of repeating Israeli propaganda and challenges him to provide evidence for his claims about Hamas using human shields. Dershowitz promises to provide a quote from a Hamas leader bragging about using human shields, while Barouti remains adamant that Hamas does not engage in such practices. The debate also touches on historical narratives, with Barouti accusing Dershowitz of misrepresenting the acceptance of the 1948 partition plan by Israel. The exchange becomes heated, with both sides questioning each other's credibility and understanding of history.

35:09

🔚 Conclusion of the Heated Debate

The debate concludes with Dershowitz challenging Barouti to stake his credibility on the claim that Hamas does not use human shields, while Barouti maintains his position that Hamas does not engage in such practices. The interviewer thanks both guests for their participation in the intense and passionate debate, which covered various aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the use of human shields, civilian casualties, historical narratives, and the future of Hamas.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Genocide

The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, ethnic, religious, or national group. This term is used frequently in the video, with Dr. Cornell West accusing Israel of committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. He refers to the situation in Gaza as a 'state of emergency' and a 'genocide' that needs urgent attention. Mustafa Barghouti also accuses Israel of committing genocide, citing the deaths of 12,000 Palestinian children.

💡Human Shields

The practice of using civilians (often women and children) as protective cover for military operations or personnel. Alan Dershowitz accuses Hamas of employing this tactic, claiming they brag about using 'women and children as human shields.' However, Mustafa Barghouti vehemently denies this accusation, calling it 'Israeli propaganda' and claiming that Hamas does not use human shields.

💡Ceasefire

A temporary suspension of active hostilities between opposing forces. The video discusses the call by US Vice President Kamala Harris for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza for at least six weeks. This proposed ceasefire is linked to the release of hostages and a potential move towards a longer-term cessation of violence.

💡Hostages

A person seized or held as security for the compliance of others with certain terms or conditions. The video mentions the release of hostages as a condition for the proposed ceasefire, with Alan Dershowitz stating that Hamas must name all the hostages they are holding for a deal to be reached.

💡Apartheid

A policy or system of segregation and discrimination on grounds of race or ethnicity. Mustafa Barghouti accuses Israel of practicing apartheid against Palestinians, stating that the Palestinian struggle is to be free from 'occupation, apartheid, and oppression.' Dr. Cornell West also references apartheid-like conditions in Gaza.

💡Terrorism

The use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. The video features a debate over whether Hamas should be considered a terrorist organization or a resistance movement against Israeli occupation. Mustafa Barghouti draws parallels between Hamas and historical figures like George Washington and Nelson Mandela, who were also labeled as terrorists.

💡Occupation

The act of taking control of a territory or region by military force. The video discusses the long-standing Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, with Mustafa Barghouti stating that the Palestinian struggle is for freedom from occupation. Dr. Cornell West also references the Israeli occupation as the root cause of the conflict.

💡Self-defense

The act of defending oneself, one's property, or the well-being of another from harm. Alan Dershowitz argues that Israel's actions are in self-defense, citing the nation's right to protect itself from attacks like the one on October 7th. He posits that Israel's actions in 1948 were also in self-defense against Arab armies.

💡Martyr

A person who suffers greatly or is killed for a belief, cause, or principle. Dr. Cornell West refers to Aaron Bushnell, who set himself on fire in protest, as a 'martyr' who paid the ultimate cost to bear witness to the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza. West draws parallels between Bushnell and historical figures like Cato, who committed suicide as a form of moral witness.

💡Ethnic cleansing

The mass expulsion or extermination of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society. Mustafa Barghouti accuses Israel of committing ethnic cleansing in addition to genocide and collective punishment against Palestinians in Gaza. He cites the destruction of homes, universities, and hospitals as evidence of this alleged ethnic cleansing.

Highlights

Cornell West compared Aaron Bushnell's self-immolation to Cato's suicide as an act of moral courage and willingness to bear witness against oppression.

West argued that many of his critics are indifferent to the suffering and genocide happening in Gaza.

West stated he would acknowledge the courage of anyone bearing witness against the killing of innocent people, regardless of their affiliation.

West described the actions in Gaza as a state of emergency requiring urgency, referring to them as massacres happening before our eyes.

West claimed he would be morally consistent in opposing any organized army that kills innocent people, especially children.

West argued that Hamas emerged as a counter-terrorist group responding to the terrorism of the Israeli state, which began in 1948.

Alan Dershowitz accused West of promoting violence by acknowledging Bushnell's actions and called his use of the term 'genocide' for Israel's actions as Holocaust denial.

Mustafa Barghouti stated that over 12,000 Palestinian children have been killed, which he considers an act of genocide.

Barghouti claimed that 4.5% of Gaza's population has been killed or injured, which he stated would be equivalent to 12 million people in the US.

Barghouti accused Israel of committing genocide, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing simultaneously in Gaza.

Dershowitz challenged Barghouti's claim that Hamas does not use human shields, citing a quote from a Hamas leader praising the use of human shields.

Barghouti equated the Palestinian struggle for freedom to the American Revolution, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa.

Barghouti stated that if Hamas followed the path of non-violent resistance like Martin Luther King Jr., there would be peace.

Dershowitz argued that if Hamas laid down its arms, there would be peace, while if Israel did so, it would lead to genocide.

The debate centered around whether Hamas uses human shields, with Barghouti denying it and Dershowitz claiming to have evidence from a Hamas leader.

Transcripts

00:00

well pressure is again intensifying on

00:02

Israel after US vice president kamla

00:04

Harris called for a ceasefire in Gaza

00:06

and rebuked the humanitarian catastrophe

00:09

there opinions on the war are sharply

00:11

divided in America Israel's most

00:13

important Ally a fact lay bare by the

00:15

death of us Amon Aaron bushnel last week

00:19

the 25-year-old set himself a light

00:21

outside the Israeli Embassy in

00:22

Washington DC shouting free Palestine

00:25

and declaring he would no longer be

00:27

complicit in genocide well presidential

00:30

candidate Dr Cornell West stood up

00:32

controversy by posting the following to

00:34

X let us ever forget the extraordinary

00:36

courage and commitment of brother Aaron

00:38

Bushnell who died for truth and Justice

00:41

I pray for his precious loved ones let

00:43

us rededicate ourselves to genuine

00:45

solidarity with Palestinians undergoing

00:47

genocidal attacks in real time well many

00:49

Jewish commentators said Dr West

00:51

comments encourage political violence by

00:54

those oppos to Israel's existence but

00:56

joining me now to discuss his

00:57

controversial post is the independent

00:59

president candidate Professor Cornell

01:01

West Cornell great to see you thank you

01:03

very much for coming back on uncensored

01:05

um always a blessing to being

01:07

conversation with you my brother and the

01:09

feeling is is very mutual let me just

01:11

just ask you many people were pretty

01:14

surprised by the tone of your uh of your

01:17

Tweet not least the fact that you would

01:19

categorize what Aaron bushnel did as

01:22

extraordinary courage and commitment uh

01:26

many people think it was the act of

01:28

somebody quite possibly

01:30

very seriously mentally ill taking his

01:33

life in dramatic circumstances and that

01:36

that was not necessarily consistent with

01:38

being courageous or

01:41

committed well one is that U you think

01:45

of ko the younger when he killed himself

01:49

as the Roman Empire began to emerge and

01:52

the Roman Republic was collapsing and

01:55

Ko's killing of himself has become one

01:58

of the grand examples of moral courage

02:02

and a willingness to Bear witness as to

02:04

something that he deeply opposed now I

02:07

think it's very interesting that so many

02:09

of the people who were critical of me

02:12

talking about the courage of my dear

02:14

brother Aaron that they don't understand

02:17

the depths and scope of the suffering

02:20

right now in Gaza and too many of them

02:22

actually are even indifferent to the

02:25

genocide they're indifferent to the

02:27

ethnic cleansing they're indifferent to

02:30

the apar like conditions and so I can

02:33

understand them saying well I am

02:35

promoting violence by acknowledging the

02:38

tremendous courage in to engage in a

02:41

moral witness in which you kill yourself

02:44

as a way of calling attention not to

02:46

yourself but to suffering of precious

02:49

Palestinians in Gaza that's what Aaron

02:52

was doing in the same way Kato was doing

02:54

the same thing when they saw Julius

02:56

Caesar moving into the highest position

03:00

and it was clear that the Republic was

03:02

coming to a close and the empire was

03:05

being established and there's a whole

03:07

host of examples of people who bear

03:09

Witness by killing themselves let me ask

03:12

you this suicide no that's not the point

03:15

it's the cause that they are bearing

03:17

witness to and that's where my

03:19

difference with so many of my deeply

03:21

conservative and and moderate Jewish

03:23

brothers and sisters comes in if they're

03:25

indifferent to the suffering in Gaza

03:28

then it's going to be difficult for me

03:29

even have a conversation because for me

03:31

it's a state of emergency for me we need

03:34

a sense of urgency this these massacres

03:37

are taking place before our very eyes we

03:41

ought to be on fire we ought to be

03:43

deeply concerned let me ask you this

03:45

would you have said the same thing if

03:48

this Airman had killed himself in this

03:51

manner outside the Palestinian Embassy

03:55

in Washington DC if there is one

03:58

whatever the the uh central location is

04:00

for Palestinians in Washington the day

04:03

after October the 7th and reversed it

04:06

and said I'm doing this in response to

04:08

the horror committed by Hamas on Jewish

04:11

people in Israel would you have felt the

04:13

same way about what

04:16

happened oh absolutely murder is murder

04:19

though brother that when you kill

04:21

innocent people when you kill civilians

04:23

those are crimes against humanity now I

04:26

have a larger indictment of Israeli apar

04:30

I have a larger indictment of the

04:31

Israeli occupation of Palestinians but

04:34

anytime any organized group kills

04:38

innocent people especially innocent

04:40

children I will be in opposition that's

04:43

true for US troops that's true for

04:45

British troops that's true for the IDF

04:48

that's true for Iranian troops that's

04:50

true for Chinese troops that's true for

04:52

Indian troops any

04:54

organized Army that kills innocent

04:58

people especially children

05:00

for me is murder I'm morally consistent

05:03

in that regard and that therefore if

05:05

somebody kills themselves in order to

05:08

call attention to the suffering of

05:10

precious innocent people especially

05:12

precious innocent children I am going to

05:16

acknowledge that courage and say it's

05:18

wrong it's wrong it's wrong and I don't

05:21

mind being morally consistent and

05:23

therefore having people thoroughly

05:25

misunderstand me because I do not look

05:27

at the world through a narrow set of

05:30

ideological lens I try to stay in

05:32

contact with the humanity of all

05:34

innocent people and all children no

05:36

matter what color Palestinian Israeli

05:39

Ethiopian Guatemalan I fundamentally

05:41

believe that a Palestinian baby has the

05:43

same value as an Israeli baby the

05:46

problem is you and I know that if

05:48

Palestinians were doing this to

05:51

Israelis

05:53

Biden Harris blinkin all of these folks

05:57

who are enabling this genocide enabling

06:00

these crimes against humanity they would

06:02

have a very different view because

06:03

they're not morally consistent they

06:06

don't believe that a Palestinian life

06:08

has the same value as an Israeli I

06:10

certainly do but I certainly think I

06:12

certainly do but I also believe that the

06:14

the purest definition of genocide is

06:16

hamas's view of uh Jewish people in

06:20

Israel they want to get rid of all of

06:21

them they've made it very clear publicly

06:23

since October the 7th that they want to

06:25

commit that kind of atrocity again and

06:27

again and again and just get rid of all

06:29

jewi people in Israel that actually is

06:31

the purest definition of genocide isn't

06:33

it well genocide has to do with intent

06:36

as well as execution would you accept

06:39

the

06:40

Hamas when Hamas was founded in

06:43

1988 as a response to vious Israeli

06:46

occupation they were wrong they were

06:49

calling for the forms of violent

06:52

resistance that too often did include

06:55

killing innocent folk because of course

06:57

innocent Palestinians had been killed

06:59

for 75 years by the IDF and others they

07:02

did change their Charter there's been

07:04

struggles within the Hamas itself and

07:08

the Palestinian people themselves

07:11

are how would you put it the Palestinian

07:13

people themselves are resisting with

07:15

tremendous dignity and Hamas has emerged

07:19

as a major institutional vehicle and

07:22

that institutional vehicles for me does

07:25

involve crimes against humanity when

07:28

they kill innocent Folk they've em let's

07:30

be clear let's be clear they've emerged

07:32

as a terrorist terrorist organization

07:34

committing acts of mass terrorism I mean

07:36

that's what they are know Hamas is a

07:39

counterterrorist group responding to the

07:41

terrorism of the IDF and responding to

07:45

the terrorism of the Israeli State a

07:47

counterterrorist group can inv can can

07:49

can commit war crimes brother but they

07:51

they didn't initiate it at all if

07:54

they're founded in

07:55

1988 and the terrorism began in 1948

07:59

with the state of Israel that's 40 whole

08:02

years let's keep in mind I think it's a

08:04

stretch to

08:06

call undermine the PLO undermine secular

08:11

nationalism promote fundamentalist Islam

08:14

as a way of dividing Palestinians that's

08:16

why Nathan yahu allowed for Gaza allowed

08:20

for Hamas to gain to gain access to the

08:23

money from Qatar and others keep the

08:25

Palestinians divided and therefore not

08:28

having to move to deal with the West

08:30

there are look there are many things

08:32

that we would find agreement on about

08:34

the way Palestinians have been treated

08:36

for a very long time it has been a

08:38

completely unacceptable occupation

08:41

should

08:42

not but hang on hang on let me I know

08:45

let me finish but the idea that you

08:47

categorize Hamas after October 7th as

08:49

counter terrorists is ridiculous they

08:51

are terrorists and they should be called

08:54

what they are anyway let me ask you do

08:55

do you think the IDF is terrorist when

08:57

they kill innocent Palestinians do you

08:59

believe I it depends yes or no my

09:01

brother yes or no well okay I I would

09:03

ask you this if you yes or no yes or no

09:07

hang on you're uncensored you're

09:08

uncensored my brother and I've been

09:10

asked this question before I have

09:11

actually tweeted in 2014 I tweeted that

09:14

what Israel was doing then was bordering

09:17

on terrorism I'm not afraid of using

09:18

that analogy bordering on terrorism the

09:21

children are being killed right yes of

09:22

course they were children killed on

09:24

October the 7th I have serious

09:26

misgivings about what's happening

09:27

currently in Gaza like most people but

09:30

what I would say to you if you were the

09:32

head of the Israeli government on

09:34

October the 7th out of Interest what

09:37

would your response have been to that

09:39

horrendous terror attack well I I'll

09:42

tell you the answer to that question but

09:43

I don't know why you just can't say the

09:45

IDF is terrorist killers and innocent

09:47

people bordering on it it's wrong no

09:50

what why you're uncensored you're a free

09:52

man tell the truth from your soul tell

09:55

let me tell you what I would what I

09:56

would do if I was in Israel I would any

09:59

occupation I would end The Siege I would

10:02

saying I'm committed to Palestinian

10:04

dignity I'm committed to Palestinian

10:06

equality and we Palestinians and

10:09

Israelis we Jews and and and and and

10:11

Palestinians we're going to learn how to

10:13

live together in the context of equality

10:16

and dignity we're going to have Jewish

10:18

safety we're going to have Jewish

10:20

security that's the very end and aim of

10:22

Israel we never see an annihilation of

10:24

Jews we'll never see another Massacre or

10:26

holy caust of Jews but we'll never see

10:28

an ation and and Massacre and and and

10:31

and and and and and vicious attacks on

10:33

Palestinians either that's what I would

10:35

do not just head of Israel that's what

10:38

I'll do in the White House brother

10:41

that's what I'll do in the white house

10:42

and I'll explain to American people why

10:44

it is that Biden and Harris and others

10:47

continue to enable this genocide and

10:49

then when they finally say ceasefire

10:51

they act like they ought we ought to

10:53

give them a moral Prize or something

10:55

after 30,000 precious people have

10:57

already been killed yeah listen there's

10:59

a lot that you say that I agree with

11:01

just to be clear okay no no I I hear you

11:04

I hear you okay I just want to read you

11:05

what Ben Shapiro said about your Tweet

11:07

though about Aaron Bushnell he said our

11:09

political environment is facilitating

11:11

dangerous Insanity it is easy enough for

11:13

people like Cornell West to celebrate

11:15

the pseudo heroism of disturbed people

11:17

lighting themselves on fire but both the

11:20

mentally Disturbed in our society pay

11:22

the price for such celebration I mean he

11:24

has a point doesn't he you wouldn't want

11:26

other people to go and set fire to

11:28

themselves

11:29

and kill themselves like he did would

11:32

you brother I have deep libertarian

11:34

sensibilities I believe that people make

11:37

choice and they have to take

11:38

responsibilities they make decisions

11:40

they have to deal with the consequences

11:42

I do not promote people killing

11:45

themselves not at all but people do a

11:48

number of different things I would want

11:50

to ask brother Shapiro he's talking

11:52

about there's heroes in the Israeli

11:54

Defense Forces many of whom are killing

11:57

innocent children do do I think that's

11:59

sick yes that is morally bankrupt it is

12:03

spiritually empty it is ethically

12:06

vacuous I come right back at Shapiro

12:09

Your Heroes happen to be engaging in

12:11

Terrorist activity against Palestinians

12:14

and he and you're gonna say Aaron's not

12:17

a hero Aaron is a particular person who

12:19

exercised a certain kind of witness and

12:22

ended up taking the form of killing

12:24

himself in order not to bring attention

12:26

to himself but to try to give some of

12:29

urgency for a genocide do you do you

12:34

believe that's what brother super want

12:36

to focus on do you believe wants hide

12:40

his indifference to the suffering of

12:41

Palestinians in the form of attacking

12:44

let me ask you how cowardly can you get

12:46

my brother do you believe that Aaron

12:48

bushnel is a

12:51

martyr well martyr and witness really

12:54

have the same uh root as you know in the

12:57

Greek uh and Martyr means someone who

13:00

pays an ultimate cost tied to a higher

13:04

cause I believe trying to bring

13:07

attention to genocide and bring genocide

13:09

to a close is a higher cause and I

13:13

believe that his actions was trying to

13:15

bring attention to that higher cause so

13:18

yes he is a martyr absolutely Dr West uh

13:21

always good to talk to you on uncensor

13:23

thank blessing stay strong my brother

13:27

would you be out to debate all this is

13:28

legal scholar and author of war against

13:30

the Jews Professor Alan dwizz and the

13:31

leader of the Palestinian national

13:33

initiative Mustafa barouti well welcome

13:35

to both of you um Alan dotz your

13:38

response there to Dr West in particular

13:40

categorization of Aaron bushnel as a

13:42

Marty for setting himself on fire and

13:45

and taking his own life in protest what

13:49

he said was the genocide of Palestinians

13:51

in

13:52

Gaza if anybody is going to be a mod

13:55

they should take their lives and protest

13:58

of hamama using precious children as

14:01

human shields uh using a child as a

14:04

human shield putting a child a hospital

14:07

a school a mosque over Hamas Fighters

14:11

and tunnels and other uh weapons that

14:15

are used to kill precious Jewish

14:17

children is the major reason why so many

14:20

civilians particularly so many children

14:22

and women have been killed by the way

14:24

there is a lower ratio of civilians to

14:27

combatants that have been killed in Gaza

14:30

than in any Modern Warfare according to

14:34

even the Hamas statistics and if you

14:36

compare them to the number of people

14:38

combatants who have been killed the

14:40

ratio is approximately one and a half to

14:43

one which is three or four to one the

14:47

problem with the problem with that

14:48

analogy is that when you actually get

14:50

into the statistics and let's accept

14:53

this is the Palestinian health authority

14:55

it's Hamas run uh but this the numbers

14:57

have not been challenged uh as being you

15:00

know wildly inaccurate by any other body

15:02

but more I'm accepting them for the

15:04

moment yeah so more more children have

15:07

been killed as a percentage of Civilian

15:09

deaths than any other type of conflict

15:12

of this nature in Modern Times And the

15:14

reason for that is that Gaza Gaza has

15:17

two million people of which a million

15:21

just over half are under 18 so it's

15:24

become de facto a Slaughter of children

15:27

that's the problem

15:29

well REM remember that Gaza that Hamas

15:32

counts anybody under 19 as a child Hamas

15:36

recruits children between the ages of 13

15:39

and 19 to be terrorists so buy you can't

15:43

you can't buy a beer Alan you can't buy

15:45

a beer in many American states if you're

15:48

under 21 so the definition of what is a

15:51

child I

15:53

mean but a 19-year-old is not a child a

15:56

19-year-old with a gun pointed at an

15:58

Israeli who was shot is not a child a

16:01

woman who was throwing a bomb at

16:03

Israelis is not a child remember too

16:06

that my dear friend Cornell also said

16:08

that the terrorism by Israel started in

16:11

1948 in 1948 Israel was prepared to

16:14

accept the two-state solution in a tiny

16:17

little State and they were attacked by

16:19

all the Arab armies and they fought in

16:21

self-defense but Cornell West revealed

16:24

his bias against Israel by suggesting

16:26

that Israel's terrorism began when it

16:29

fought for its own independence and

16:31

essentially he's calling for the end of

16:33

Israel if he's saying that its

16:35

illegitimacy started in 19 in

16:38

1948 uh and and and you know the idea

16:42

that Israel is committing genocide when

16:44

it has actually done everything in its

16:47

power to minimize civilian casualties in

16:50

the face of Hamas doing everything in

16:52

its power to maximize civilian

16:54

casualties Israel should do more and the

16:57

United States should pressure pressure

16:58

Israel to do more and Israel has done

17:01

more the number of civilians killed in

17:03

the last month is far less than in

17:06

previous months because Israel is now in

17:09

a position where it can take more

17:11

refined action more specific actions

17:13

there are criticism is valid but calling

17:16

Israel genocide a word coined to

17:18

describe the murder of six million

17:21

innocent Jews in gas Chambers is a form

17:23

of Holocaust denial and it's an absolute

17:26

disgrace to use that term genocide

17:29

against a country that's simply trying

17:31

to defend itself from a recurrence of

17:33

October 7th what Israel is doing is what

17:36

America has done what Great Britain has

17:38

done what France has done but only

17:40

Israel is called genocide okay let me

17:43

just play a clip before I come to you

17:44

Mustafa buti bti clip from Kamala Harris

17:47

Vice President of the United States this

17:49

was

17:50

overnight

17:52

given the immense scale of suffering in

17:57

Gaza there must be an immediate

18:03

ceasefire for at least the next six

18:06

weeks which is what is currently on the

18:11

table so Mustafa bouti um we'll come to

18:15

what she said there about a call for a

18:16

ceasefire but in response to Alan

18:19

dtz there's a real debate raging about

18:23

whether what is happening in Gaza

18:25

constitutes genocide what is your view

18:33

well I am not surprised at all Mr Morgan

18:36

that Mr dtz your guest is defending the

18:40

murderous Israeli Army because he's used

18:44

he's famous for defending murderers in

18:46

American courts I think he's used to

18:49

that he's even famous for

18:51

defending six traffickers like

18:55

shipin and of course he will defend

18:57

those who are committing can we get to

18:59

the point instead of having

19:01

homs I say let me let me I have to say

19:05

Meers lawyers lawyers defend people who

19:08

they often may personally have serious

19:11

issues with there's nothing unusual

19:13

about a lawyer Palestinians I've

19:15

defended terrorists I have defended

19:18

people defended yeah yeah you can finish

19:22

but if you're going to

19:24

go if you're going to attack him for for

19:26

defending bad people we're going to be

19:27

here so stick to the question uh I uh I

19:32

would even defend you I would defend

19:34

your right to make the lies that you've

19:36

said if you don't want me to speak can

19:38

you shut up so that I can speak shut up

19:41

please I want to say that what you see

19:44

in Gaza now is an act of genocide

19:46

because 12,000 children have been killed

19:49

and these are not 19 years old these are

19:52

5 six years old and 3 years old and 2

19:55

years old these are children for God's

19:58

sake

19:59

I am against the killing of 30 Israeli

20:01

children which happened on the 7th of

20:03

October because they are children and

20:04

civilians but nothing in the world could

20:07

justify because of the killing of 30

20:09

children the killing of 12,000 other

20:11

Palestinian children that is

20:14

unacceptable I am you should look at at

20:17

the real

20:18

figures 30,000 Palestinian civilians

20:21

have been killed and 72,000 people have

20:25

been injured by the Israeli Mur all

20:28

together this is

20:30

4.5% of the population hold on hold on I

20:34

did not interrupt you so shut up and let

20:36

me finish 4.5% of the population of Gaza

20:41

have been killed or injured if that had

20:43

happened in the United States of America

20:45

you would be talking about 12 million

20:47

people killed or injured in four months

20:50

of time is that acceptable and mostly

20:53

civilians 70% are civilians more than

20:57

that Israel is kill killing Palestinians

20:59

not only with this terrible genocide

21:01

with their bombardment they are killing

21:03

Palestinians with starvation this

21:06

terrible Siege 50,000 pregnant women

21:09

Palestinian women don't find a place to

21:11

give birth in 64,000 breastfeeding women

21:15

cannot help their babies and more than

21:18

that 700,000 people are now starving

21:22

because Israel is preventing milk flour

21:25

food to the population of Gaza City and

21:28

the north of Gaza and more than that

21:30

they shoot the Palestinian hungry people

21:33

when they are trying to get some food

21:35

okay Mr and killed them like they did

21:37

two days

21:39

ago 100 people and 860 others were

21:43

injured so my response to you yes this

21:47

is genocide these are three war crimes

21:50

happening at the same time genocide

21:52

Collective punishment and ethnic

21:55

cleansing at the same time 70% % of all

21:58

homes were destroyed all universities

22:01

were destroyed 30 hospitals out of 36

22:04

hospitals were destroyed

22:06

347 of my colleagues medical

22:12

doctors let me just Alan Das let me just

22:14

ask what is that if it is not genocide

22:16

Alan dasis you can respond but I want

22:18

you also Alan just just quickly I want

22:20

to also mention again Kam Harris calling

22:22

for a six week ceasefire this is what is

22:25

being negotiated but Hamas can't even

22:28

apparently say where the remaining

22:30

hostages are which seems to be a massive

22:33

barrier to any any potential deal here

22:36

so first of all your reaction to that

22:38

and then respond to Mr

22:41

barouti well I think the deal is on the

22:43

table Israel has accepted it the Hamas

22:46

has refused to give the names of the

22:48

hostages and if they would give the

22:50

names of the hostages we could have a

22:52

deal I want to ask Mr barui if he wants

22:54

to talk about another War crime are you

22:56

prepared now to condemn Hamas for using

23:00

children as human shields for using

23:03

women as human Shields are you prepared

23:05

now to condemn that war crime don't this

23:08

is a lie they don't you you you deny it

23:12

a li everybody in the world is wrong

23:14

they don't hide behind children it's not

23:15

true they don't use any it's a lie you

23:18

are repeating I

23:20

don't you ask me I will answer you do

23:23

you don't want me to answer your

23:24

question it's a lie there's no human Shi

23:27

never use Shield ever huh no it's a lie

23:30

because it is it is let me answer it is

23:33

an Israeli propaganda and if you look

23:36

carefully and you are a famous and

23:39

well-known lawyer I don't doubt that but

23:41

I want you to look at the facts for me

23:44

for me Anna Frank the little Jewish

23:48

child who was killed by

23:51

Nazis is not different from hend rajab

23:54

who is a Palestinian child 6 years old

23:57

who was stuck in a car with six of her

23:59

family members killed by the Israeli

24:01

tanks screaming and asking for help and

24:05

instead of helping her they bombarded

24:07

the ambulance that came to help her and

24:10

answering the question do they use human

24:12

Shields or Frank and H are the same no

24:16

no no no what what human shield she was

24:20

in a car surrounded by tanks I'm talking

24:23

isra K talking for me she's a victim of

24:26

children na behavior I'm not changing

24:31

the subject start to see you're changing

24:33

the subject no

24:35

no let me let me let me let me ask a

24:37

question Mr Mr bti let me ask a question

24:41

Mr bouti you say that the Hamas never

24:43

use civilians as human shields in which

24:46

case why do they build this Labyrinth of

24:48

tunnels around schools and hospitals and

24:52

all the places where civilians are going

24:55

to be why would they do that

25:00

no the question is not like that the

25:02

question is why Israel continued to Gaza

25:05

which is only which wait wait wait the

25:08

Gaza is only wait a minute Gaza is 140

25:11

squar miles with three with 2.3 million

25:15

people where should people go why do

25:17

they hang on you're avoiding my question

25:20

besides the fact that it was occupied

25:22

for such a long time let me repeat where

25:24

would they go how could they fight rep

25:28

strikes that are killing them

25:30

around I mean you're you're asking them

25:33

you're asking me a

25:36

question ask question and I will you

25:39

finish question if Hamas does not want

25:41

to use civilians as human Shields why do

25:44

they build tunnels around schools and

25:51

hospitals first of all you are again Mr

25:54

you Mr Morgan you are again repeating

25:57

Israel propaganda it's not propaganda

25:59

the footage that hospitals were bu that

26:02

tunnels were under hospitals wait wait

26:04

let me finish you asked the question let

26:06

me answer it's not true what they say

26:09

and yes they build tunnels to hide from

26:12

Israeli air strikes of course like

26:14

Vietnamese built tunnels to hide from

26:16

American bombardment in Vietnam it's the

26:19

same but that to say that they are

26:21

taking people civilians as hostage as as

26:24

as as Shields is not true wait a minute

26:27

I see Hamas fighters on Al jazer Network

26:31

attacking Israeli tanks without with

26:34

very little weapons I don't see them

26:36

hiding behind the I have proof that I'd

26:38

like you to listen to I

26:41

have

26:43

is speak Please

26:45

Mr mrti let Alan d respond let Alan DWI

26:50

respond

26:51

okay here is in my book the ca the war

26:55

against the Jews inter I quote directly

26:58

I quote directly from a leader of Hamas

27:02

praising the use of human Shields he

27:05

says we regard our women and our

27:07

children as Martyrs we use them as human

27:11

Shields this is Hamas bragging about the

27:15

use of human Shields bragging why they

27:17

will not allow civilians it's in the

27:22

book I I I I will send it to you I can't

27:25

find it this second me the name it's

27:27

there and not only that many I will send

27:29

it you and I will give you a copy you

27:31

can't find the name because it doesn't

27:33

exist and and that's why that's why

27:36

Hamas you're

27:39

just into the tunnels into the tunnels

27:42

if you want to wait a few minutes go off

27:45

the air I will find out the name and I

27:47

will give it a familiar name appears in

27:51

this book Al let let me ask Al let me

27:54

ask a question Alan dwiz this idea of a

27:57

six we ceasefire I think most of the

28:00

world now wants Israel to stop bombing

28:04

Gaza uh do you agree that it's time for

28:08

a proper ceasefire which allows proper

28:11

humanitarian Aid to get in and do you

28:13

think this has now gone on long

28:15

enough I think first of all humanitarian

28:18

Aid should be allowed in under all

28:20

circumstances all the opening should be

28:22

allowed all humanitarian Aid should come

28:24

in second I agree with the American and

28:27

British plan for a six we ceasefire

28:30

coupled with the release of hostages

28:32

naming all the hostages and perhaps

28:36

moving toward a longer uh ceasefire I'm

28:38

not in favor of continuing the war

28:41

unless it has to be done but Hamas has

28:44

to be disabled it cannot be allowed to

28:47

return that's also part of American

28:49

policy that's also what camela Harris

28:51

said and I agree with what she said

28:53

generally but it has to be part of a

28:55

return of hostages and it has to be a

28:57

mutual ceasefire yesterday it was

28:59

announced by Islamic Jihad that Ramadan

29:02

will be the bloodiest month that there

29:04

will be more terrorist attacks during

29:06

Ramadan you can have a ceasefire on one

29:09

side which happened October 6th there

29:11

was a ceasefire on one side and Hamas

29:14

violated there is a genuine peaceful

29:17

ceasefire on both sides then I could

29:20

agree with that Mr bti two two questions

29:23

for you to finish here one is do you

29:25

agree that hamash should hand all the

29:28

hostages first and secondly do you agree

29:31

that there can be no future for for

29:34

Palestinians with Hamas in

29:40

charge well first of all yes I will

29:42

answer your questions but let me tell

29:44

you something that please answer my

29:45

questions rather than do something else

29:48

they keep repeating no no no no let me

29:51

let me finish Mr just answer my

29:53

questions please they keep repeating

29:54

statements that Palestinians said that a

29:57

Palestinian said that but the reality is

30:00

that it is the Israelis who are doing

30:02

the crimes who is killing who are

30:04

killing committ hang on Hamas committed

30:08

Hamas hang on let me respond Hamas

30:12

committ let me committee let me just

30:14

respond to that Hamas commit let me just

30:17

finish you you wanted to make a point

30:18

I'm making Point let me answer first

30:20

commit one of the worst Terror attacks

30:22

in history and when they did it they

30:25

brazenly boasted about it on their

30:27

phones and videos and put them out to

30:30

the world they were so happy and proud

30:32

of what they've done so let's not be

30:33

under any illusion about what Hamas are

30:35

about but those two questions to end

30:37

please should the hostages all be

30:40

released should the hostages all be

30:41

released immediately secondly should

30:44

Hamas stay in

30:49

power first of all you keep repeating

30:52

Israeli propaganda it's just answer my

30:54

questions Mr B you you accuse

30:56

Palestinians of being terrorist let me

30:58

answer let me answer George Washington

31:01

was accused of being a terrorist because

31:02

he fought for the independence of the

31:04

United States Nelson Mandela was put on

31:08

American Terrorist list for a very long

31:10

time Martin Luther King was accused of

31:13

by racist of being a terrorist Shane

31:15

Fain party which struggled for The

31:18

Liberation were also accused of being

31:21

terrorist but nevertheless I'll answer

31:23

your questions yes all Israeli prisoners

31:26

must be released in exchange of all

31:28

Palestinian prisoners who should be

31:30

released including a relative of mine

31:32

that I told you about before who has

31:34

been in Israeli jail for 42 years

31:38

including hundreds of Palestinians today

31:42

250 Mr Israeli hostages all of them have

31:47

to be released isra the other question

31:49

the Israeli hostages just to be clear

31:51

the Israeli hostages are hostages not

31:54

prisoners just to be clear go on

31:58

no they are prisoners of War because

32:00

they are fighting in Gaza and they were

32:03

caught while they were they were an I

32:07

agree with you that civilians are not

32:08

prisoners that's for sure but Israeli

32:11

Israeli soldiers are prisoners all those

32:13

civilians were innocent civilians and

32:17

about Hamas the second question about

32:20

Hamas you keep answering me I don't know

32:23

who's answering I want you to answer

32:24

that question you should ask questioners

32:27

Mr Morgan should Hamas no give me POS

32:29

give me the right to answer your

32:31

question if you answer my questions I

32:33

would be really happy they declared that

32:36

Hamas does not want to stay in power but

32:39

you have to understand we the

32:41

Palestinians will struggle in every

32:43

possible mean to be free from occupation

32:47

from aparti from oppression it's the

32:49

right of the people who are oppressed to

32:52

struggle for their freedom it was an

32:54

American right for those who struggled

32:56

against British colonialism it was the

32:58

right of Martin Luther King to free

33:01

African-Americans it was the right of

33:03

Nelson Mandela who struggled to end

33:05

aperti in South Africa we need to be

33:11

freeth let H follow Martin Luther King's

33:14

pass and there will be peace if Hamas

33:16

follows Martin Luther King's PA I am

33:18

following passive resistance am I stops

33:23

using terrorism am

33:25

following there will be peace as as as a

33:29

leader of being is if the if Hamas were

33:34

to lay down its arms there would be

33:36

peace if Israel would to lay down its

33:38

arms there would be the kind of genocide

33:40

that we saw begun on October 7th Israel

33:44

wants peace always wanted it 1948

33:49

us no Israel is the right of

33:51

self-defense I want correct 1948 okay 48

33:56

again we've run out of time I'm sorry uh

33:59

Mr bti no no no no one one minute no no

34:02

we run out of time allow me to say to

34:04

respond to what he you I will get you

34:07

both

34:08

back I will get you both back to debate

34:11

the history of this accepted the

34:13

partition plan okay you should go and

34:16

read history properly Israel never

34:18

accepted the history these are not my

34:21

words we will debate the history aish

34:23

the Israeli historian reported we will

34:26

de

34:28

said he he digged very deep and couldn't

34:30

find a single that

34:34

shows I will give it to you I don't have

34:36

an index in this book I will give you

34:39

the name I will give you the exact quote

34:41

and you will then have to apologize is

34:43

that okay you have to check whether he

34:45

is really Hamas or not to apologize

34:48

because the studio is about doesn't ever

34:51

use human Shields doesn't use human

34:54

Shields you're willing to Res your

34:57

on the claim that Hamas never uses human

35:00

Shields and that everybody in the world

35:02

is wronging the United

35:05

Nation human Shields I'm happy to end

35:09

this debate on your credibility that

35:11

Hamas doesn't use human sheld we will

35:13

end it on that debate uh Mustafa bti

35:16

thank you very much dtz thank you very

35:18

much I appreciate you both very much for

35:21

coming on uncensored as always uh that's

35:24

it for us thank

35:25

you