"Will You Give ANY Condemnation Of Hamas?" Israel-Palestine Debate | Abby Martin vs Emily Schrader

Piers Morgan Uncensored
2 Apr 202436:14

Summary

TLDRIn a heated debate on a recent show, American Israeli commentator Emily Shrader and journalist Abby Martin discuss allegations of genocide by Israel in Gaza, referencing a UN report and the International Court of Justice's acknowledgment of plausible genocide. The dialogue navigates through accusations of indiscriminate bombings, the siege of Gaza, and the impact on civilians, especially children. Both guests delve into the political and humanitarian ramifications, questioning accountability, the definition of genocide, and the roles of Hamas and Israeli leadership. The discussion also touches on potential paths towards peace, emphasizing the complexity and deeply entrenched positions on both sides.

Takeaways

  • 😡 The debate centers on whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide, a term that implies the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group.
  • 🌍 International perspectives on the situation vary, with some accusing Israel of genocidal intent and actions in Gaza, while others dispute the characterization of Israel's actions as genocide.
  • 📚 Definitions of genocide include killing members of a group, causing serious harm, imposing conditions to physically destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children.
  • 📉 Over 32,000 Palestinians, mostly children, are reported to have been killed since an attack on October 7, according to a new report, raising significant international concern.
  • 🔍 The debate includes arguments about the accuracy of casualty numbers, the distinction between civilians and combatants, and the role of Hamas in the conflict.
  • 🗣 Voices from both sides of the debate passionately defend their positions, highlighting the complexity and depth of the conflict.
  • 🏥 The discussion touches on humanitarian issues, including the blockade of Gaza and the impact on civilians' access to food, water, and medical aid.
  • 📢 The role of international bodies like the United Nations and the International Court of Justice in assessing and responding to the situation is discussed.
  • 💬 The conversation reveals a divide on how to address the conflict's root causes and the potential paths toward resolution.
  • 🕊 The debate underscores the urgent need for a solution that addresses humanitarian concerns, ensures accountability, and lays the groundwork for lasting peace.

Q & A

  • What was the main topic discussed in the transcript?

    -The main topic discussed was whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide, including debates around the intentions, actions, and statements from both Israeli and Palestinian sides.

  • What are the five acts defined as genocide mentioned in the discussion?

    -The five acts defined as genocide mentioned are: killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

  • Who are Emily Shrader and Abby Martin, and what perspectives do they represent?

    -Emily Shrader is an American Israeli commentator who defends Israel's actions, while Abby Martin is a journalist and filmmaker who criticizes Israel's actions and labels them as genocidal. They represent opposing viewpoints on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

  • What was the significance of the ICJ ruling mentioned?

    -The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling mentioned in the discussion concluded it was plausible that genocide could be taking place in Gaza, adding international legal perspective to the debate on Israel's actions.

  • How is genocide defined according to the discussion?

    -Genocide is defined as deliberately killing people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that group.

  • What were some of the specific actions by Israel that were discussed as evidence of genocidal intent?

    -Specific actions included the siege on Gaza limiting access to water, food, electricity, and aid, widespread preventable illnesses, and the indiscriminate bombing in densely populated areas.

  • What were some of the statements made by Israeli officials that were discussed in the context of genocidal intent?

    -Statements included the Israeli president saying no civilian in Gaza is innocent and should have overthrown Hamas, and the defense minister referring to Palestinians as 'human animals' and announcing a complete siege of Gaza.

  • How did Emily Shrader and Abby Martin view the casualties and humanitarian aid in Gaza?

    -Emily Shrader argued that aid is being prevented from entering Gaza by Egypt and not Israel, and blamed Hamas for mismanaging the aid. Abby Martin emphasized the blockade and restrictions by Israel and the dire humanitarian conditions in Gaza, including starvation and lack of medical supplies.

  • What was the stance on the legitimacy of Hamas' actions during the debate?

    -Abby Martin viewed Hamas as an armed resistance group fighting for Palestinian liberation, while criticizing Israel's military occupation and policies. Emily Shrader, however, focused on Hamas' role in causing violence and suffering among Palestinians.

  • What solutions were proposed for achieving peace between Israel and Palestine?

    -The debate touched on the need for new leadership on both sides that is genuinely interested in peace, the possibility of a two-state solution, and negotiations involving both Israeli and Palestinian leadership and international partners.

Outlines

00:00

🔥 Debating Genocide Accusations and Accountability

The segment initiates a heated debate on whether Israel's actions in Gaza can be classified as genocide, emphasizing the severity of accusations from various international bodies and contrasting opinions on accountability. Key points include the substantial number of Palestinian casualties, the international and legal definitions of genocide, and the implications of these definitions on Israel's actions in Gaza. The discussion also touches on the contrasting perspectives of American-Israeli commentator Emily Shrader and journalist Abby Martin, highlighting their differing views on the situation's classification as genocide and the responsibility of Israeli leadership.

05:02

🛑 Exploring the Complexity of Innocence and Guilt

This paragraph delves into the nuanced debate over the innocence of Palestinians, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and the role of Hamas in the conflict. It examines the contention that a significant portion of the Gaza population supports Hamas, complicating the narrative of innocence. Discussions include the impact of Hamas' actions on the distribution of humanitarian aid, the classification of individuals as combatants, and the influence of Hamas' indoctrination on the youth. The complexity of determining innocence amidst the conflict, the accusations against Israel's blockade, and the allegations of collective punishment are critically analyzed.

10:02

🌍 International Reactions and Definitions of Genocide

The focus shifts to international reactions and legal definitions surrounding the accusations of genocide against Israel. It features the debate over whether Israel's actions meet the legal criteria for genocide, citing specific instances and statements from Israeli officials that could imply genocidal intent. The discussion also references a UN Human Rights report and the opinions of international law experts, juxtaposing these with the perspectives of both Emily Shrader and Abby Martin. The segment underscores the polarized views on Israel's military actions and the broader implications of labeling these actions as genocide.

15:03

⚖ Examining Leadership and Accountability Amid Conflict

This segment scrutinizes the leadership on both sides of the conflict, questioning the accountability of Israeli and Palestinian leaders for their roles in the ongoing violence. It explores the argument that Hamas, as an armed resistance group, is reacting to Israeli policies, while also confronting accusations against Israel for its military actions in Gaza. The conversation challenges the legitimacy of both Hamas and the Israeli government, probing the moral and legal responsibilities of leaders in times of conflict. The debate over the classification of terrorist organizations and the legitimacy of armed resistance versus state actions is central to this discussion.

20:06

🗣 Confronting the Moral Implications of Civilian Casualties

The dialogue intensifies around the moral implications of civilian casualties, the accuracy of casualty figures, and the justification of military actions by both Israel and Hamas. It delves into the dispute over reported numbers of killed and injured, the credibility of sources providing these figures, and the broader ethical considerations of wartime conduct. The discussion notably includes a tense exchange on the legitimacy of condemning Hamas' actions on October 7th, juxtaposing it with the broader context of the conflict and the historical grievances of the Palestinian people.

25:07

🚫 Debating Denial, Accountability, and the Path Forward

The concluding segment tackles the themes of denial, accountability, and prospects for peace. It presents a pointed debate on the refusal to acknowledge the wrongdoing of both Hamas and the Israeli military, highlighting the impact of such denial on potential resolutions to the conflict. The discussion also ventures into the possibilities for a negotiated settlement, the preconditions for peace, and the role of international intervention in addressing the root causes of the conflict. The segment underscores the challenges of achieving consensus on the classification of actions as war crimes or genocide, and the importance of leadership in navigating towards peace.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Genocide

Genocide is defined as the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Within the context of the video script, the term is heavily debated regarding its applicability to Israel's actions in Gaza. One side argues that Israel's conduct, including the systematic prevention of basic necessities and the indiscriminate bombing of densely populated areas, aligns with the criteria of genocide. Conversely, the other side disputes this characterization, highlighting the complexity of the situation and Israel's stance on self-defense against Hamas.

💡ICJ ruling

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling mentioned in the script refers to a judgment stating it was plausible that genocide could be taking place in Gaza. This ruling is significant as it frames part of the debate around the actions of Israel, suggesting a level of international scrutiny and legal examination into the events unfolding in Gaza, thereby adding a layer of international legal context to the discussions around potential genocidal actions.

💡Hamas

Hamas is a Palestinian Islamist political organization and militant group that has governed the Gaza Strip since 2007. In the video script, Hamas is central to the conflict's narrative, with its actions and the Israeli response being a focal point of debate. Hamas's role as either a terrorist organization or a resistance movement is contested, influencing the perspectives on the legitimacy and nature of the actions taken by both Hamas and Israel.

💡Siege on Gaza

The Siege on Gaza refers to the blockade imposed by Israel, aiming to restrict the movement of people, goods, and services into and out of the Gaza Strip. This blockade is highlighted in the script as a factor contributing to the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza, including shortages of water, food, and electricity. The siege is portrayed as a means of exerting pressure on Gaza but is criticized for collectively punishing the civilian population and exacerbating the conflict.

💡Humanitarian Aid

Humanitarian Aid in the context of the script refers to the supplies and assistance provided to meet the urgent needs of the Gazan population amid the conflict. The discussion around humanitarian aid touches on the challenges of delivery and distribution within Gaza, with accusations that Hamas interferes with aid distribution for its own benefit, further complicating the humanitarian situation.

💡Collective Punishment

Collective Punishment is a controversial military strategy mentioned in the script, criticized for punishing a broad population for the actions of a few. In the debate, it is argued that Israel's actions, such as the siege and bombings, amount to collective punishment of Gazans, infringing upon their rights and exacerbating the humanitarian crisis, a point of contention that underlines the broader ethical and legal debates surrounding the conflict.

💡Civilian Casualties

Civilian Casualties refer to the non-combatant population that has been killed or injured during the conflict. The script delves into the numbers and the nature of civilian casualties, with one side questioning the accuracy of reported figures and the other highlighting them as evidence of disproportionate force and potentially genocidal actions by Israel.

💡Radicalization

Radicalization is discussed in the script as a significant concern, with the suggestion that the conflict, including Israel's military actions and the blockade, contributes to the radicalization of Palestinian youth. This term contextualizes part of the long-term implications of the ongoing conflict, suggesting that current actions may sow the seeds for future violence and resistance.

💡UN Report

The UN Report mentioned in the script claims that there are reasonable grounds to believe Israel has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza. This report adds an authoritative voice to the debate, highlighting international concern and condemnation regarding Israel's actions in Gaza. The report's findings are used to bolster arguments that Israel's conduct during the conflict meets the criteria for genocide.

💡Armed Resistance

Armed Resistance is a term used in the script to describe Hamas's actions against Israel. This term's usage is central to the argument that views Hamas not merely as a terrorist organization but as a group engaged in a legitimate struggle for Palestinian self-determination and resistance against occupation. This perspective is crucial for understanding one side of the debate, which argues that Hamas's actions, while controversial, are part of a broader context of resistance against oppression.

Highlights

Debate on whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide, with references to international definitions and the ICJ ruling.

Discussion on the criteria of genocide and its applicability to Israel's treatment of Palestinians in Gaza.

Claims of genocidal intent within Israeli leadership, supported by controversial statements made by Israeli officials.

Examination of the humanitarian impact on Gaza, including siege conditions and allegations of collective punishment.

Contrasting views on the legitimacy of Palestinian support for Hamas and the consequences of Israeli policies.

The role of Hamas in Gaza, including allegations of misuse of humanitarian aid and indoctrination of youth.

Dispute over casualty figures and the credibility of sources reporting on the conflict.

Arguments regarding the definition of terrorism and the legitimacy of armed resistance.

Examination of international responses to the conflict, including UN reports and calls for an arms embargo on Israel.

Discussion on the potential for a negotiated settlement and the obstacles to achieving peace.

The impact of external narratives and propaganda on the perception of the conflict.

Analysis of the historical context of Hamas's origin and its impact on the current conflict.

Debate on the responsibility and accountability of Israeli and Palestinian leadership for ongoing violence.

Considerations on the future governance of Gaza and the prospects for peace in the region.

Reflections on the role of international law and the International Court of Justice in addressing allegations of genocide.

Transcripts

00:00

ared resistance trying to fight for do

00:03

you think Israel is a terrorist

00:04

organization genocidal intent this is

00:06

usually one of the hardest things to

00:08

prove in a case of genocide not the case

00:10

in Israel's genocide in Gaza so you're

00:13

happy to believe those numbers of course

00:15

I'm happy to those numbers Israel needs

00:17

to be held accountable and stopped

00:18

immediately because it's the gravest

00:20

crime against humanity that a state can

00:21

commit Israel isn't interested in

00:23

occupying Gaza in any sort of permanent

00:25

way that is not something we want I'm

00:27

not spokesperson well he should be tried

00:29

at the head and putting the that's a

00:31

different question I mean he's

00:32

committing question but you say you

00:34

can't interfere in Palestinian politics

00:36

but you're very prepared to interfere in

00:37

Israel

00:39

B genocide not a word to be used lightly

00:42

in recent months a term which means to

00:44

deliberately kill people from a

00:46

particular National ethnic group with

00:48

the aim of destroying said National

00:50

Group has been leveled to Israel for his

00:52

treatment of the war in Gaza the Israeli

00:54

government has repeatedly denounced the

00:56

accusation despite the icj ruling in

00:58

January that it was plausible

01:00

that genocide could be taking place over

01:02

32,000 Palestinians mostly children are

01:05

believed to have been killed since the

01:06

horrific attack on October the 7th a new

01:09

report from the United Nations says

01:11

there are reasonable grounds that Israel

01:13

has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza

01:16

this debate will rage on long after this

01:18

war is over as well whether or not

01:20

Netanyahu and the Israeli government

01:21

need to be held to account for their

01:23

actions strong voices and opinions rage

01:26

on both sides none more fervent than

01:28

those of my next two guests I'm I'm

01:29

joined by the American Israeli

01:31

commentator Emily Shrader and the

01:33

journalist and filmmaker Abby Martin but

01:35

welcome to both of you um Abby Martin

01:37

let me let me start with you to me

01:40

genocide would mean the wholesale

01:43

destruction of a people because of their

01:46

ethnicity that's how I've always

01:47

understood genocide to me there is a

01:50

internationally recognized fivepoint

01:53

guide to what is genocide it says

01:56

killing members of the group causing

01:58

serious bodily or mental harm to members

02:00

of the group deliberately inflicting on

02:02

the group conditions of Life calculated

02:04

to bring about his physical destruction

02:06

whole or part imposing measures intended

02:08

to prevent birst within the group

02:10

forcibly forci forcibly transferring

02:13

Children of the group to another group

02:16

by that

02:17

definition do you believe that what's

02:20

happened in Gaza constitutes

02:24

genocide I do and I think that the fact

02:27

that this debate is Raging on shows that

02:29

what Israel is doing is egregious enough

02:31

the fact that people are actually having

02:34

a debate on whether or not it is

02:35

genocide like you said the international

02:37

court of justice has agreed that there's

02:39

a plausible case for genocide I think

02:40

that you just clearly articulated

02:42

several factors that Israel is in fact

02:44

carrying out the mental bodily harm and

02:47

carrying about conditions uh to destroy

02:50

a group of people clearly the Complete

02:53

Siege on Gaza the elimination or the

02:56

prevention rather of water food

02:58

electricity the prevention of of Aid um

03:01

widespread preventable illnesses uh

03:03

killing people now uh we see 2 million

03:06

people on the brink of starvation

03:08

clearly these are all intended to

03:09

destroy a group of people when you

03:11

compound that with the indiscriminate

03:12

bombing in the most densely populated

03:15

places on Earth I would absolutely

03:18

constitute that as genocidal killing and

03:20

then peers compound that with the fact

03:23

that there's genocidal intent this is

03:25

usually one of the hardest things to

03:26

prove in a case of genocide not the case

03:29

in Israel's genocide in Gaza we have

03:32

five pages just in the icj ruling that

03:35

clearly lay out the explicit intent to

03:38

carry out genocide and I'll just point

03:40

to two uh the Israeli president who said

03:42

shortly after October 7th that uh no

03:46

civilian in Gaza is innocent um and that

03:49

they should have overthrown Hamas and

03:51

because they didn't they are essentially

03:53

worth uh you know killing and then you

03:55

have the defense minister shortly after

03:57

October 7th that these are human animals

04:00

and we need to act accordingly as he

04:02

announced the Complete Siege of Gaza so

04:05

taking all that into account I would

04:06

absolutely constitute what is happening

04:08

is genocide and Israel needs to be held

04:10

accountable and stopped immediately

04:12

because it's the gravest crime against

04:13

humanity that a state can commit okay

04:15

Emily Trader I mean there's no doubt

04:17

that if you study the direct quotes from

04:20

some members of netanyahu's cabinet they

04:23

are certainly speaking in a genocidal

04:25

way there's no question there's enough

04:26

of that being said since October the 7th

04:28

there's also

04:30

I actually would dispute that I actually

04:31

take issue with some of the comments

04:33

that she made for example when we're

04:35

talking about human animals it was

04:36

specific in the context and if you

04:38

understand Hebrew you know H that the

04:40

context of this was speaking

04:41

specifically about Hamas terrorists who

04:43

I would agree with that description of

04:45

course not all Palestinians are human

04:47

animals and Palestinian civilians there

04:49

are many innocent people however as

04:51

president Herzog said it is also true

04:54

that there is a certain degree of

04:55

complicity with many of the people of

04:57

Gaza now does that mean that they

04:59

deserve to die as she stated no of

05:02

course not but it's not the same thing

05:04

as being innocent either but that would

05:07

imply that there are no innocent people

05:08

in the Palestinian side I don't think

05:11

that it's true that there's no innocent

05:13

people I think that there is a certain

05:16

degree of complicity with many of the

05:18

population as we see in in the polls

05:20

according to their polls a Palestinian

05:22

conducted poll over 70% of the people in

05:25

Gaza support the actions of October 7th

05:27

I wish it wasn't the case but Emily

05:29

you're

05:30

you're just using that PO you're using

05:32

that poll to paint all civilians as

05:34

guilty do you realize that do that deiz

05:37

stated the opposite I said 70% saying

05:40

that because said

05:42

70% of course there are innocent

05:44

Palestinians what does that mean what

05:46

you're rationalizing Collective

05:48

punishment and starvation of 2 million

05:50

people 1 million kids that's what you're

05:52

rationalizing by saying that 7% over

05:54

17,000 trucks of humanitarian Aid have

05:57

entered Gaza some of them that are being

05:59

stopped right now on the border are

06:00

actually being prevented from entering

06:02

by Egypt not by Israel Israel has

06:03

inspected them and approved them

06:05

furthermore the reason that Aid isn't

06:07

being distributed properly isn't because

06:08

of Israel it's because of Hamas who has

06:11

been taking the Aid shooting Palestinian

06:13

civilians inside of Gaza and this is

06:16

according to Palestinian statements on

06:18

social media in Arabic who have been

06:20

speaking about this and then taking that

06:22

Aid and selling it at double triple

06:24

quadruple the prices of what would be

06:26

the regular market for those items so

06:29

you cannot place this all in Israel but

06:31

if you say that

06:33

70% SEC Abby say 70% of people in

06:37

Palestine are of this view 50% of that

06:41

population are under 18 they're children

06:44

so are you including large numbers of

06:46

children in your assessment that

06:49

Palestinians all all believe this way I

06:52

don't believe that the statistics of

06:54

that poll how they conducted it included

06:56

children however I don't know so I would

06:58

have to investigate that include

07:00

children then that doesn't include Half

07:01

the people in Gaza that's according to

07:03

whose statistics according to the Gaza

07:04

Ministry of Health which is controlled

07:06

by half the population because even this

07:08

30,000 number is coming from Hamas hang

07:11

I'm not I I realize that but it hasn't

07:12

been disputed by other agencies and

07:15

historically the Hamas uh figures

07:17

through the Palestinian health authority

07:19

have been broadly proven to be accurate

07:21

over time which 30,000 casualties and

07:24

they're claiming that none of them are

07:25

comat how is that accurate do even make

07:27

sense that's not the number I'm talking

07:28

about the number I'm talking about is if

07:30

half the population of Gaza is under 18

07:35

then saying that 70% of the people in

07:37

Gaza have a view would have to include a

07:40

lot of children right and if you don't

07:42

include the children you don't include

07:44

Half the population well then you're

07:46

talking about a narrow number of people

07:48

comparative sure but you also have to

07:50

consider the fact that Hamas is actively

07:52

recruiting and indoctrinating youth with

07:54

this very extremist jihadist ideology

07:57

and it's child abuse it's an unfortunate

07:59

reality that Palestinian children are

08:01

dealing with why we killing loads why we

08:03

killing 12 13,000 innocent children

08:06

whatever the exact number is is

08:08

Superfluous to the general proportionate

08:11

effect that so many kids have been

08:12

killed I don't agree with this these

08:14

numbers how many you thinked we don't

08:16

know we do not know at

08:19

this consider the fact that there are

08:22

many of them ages of 14 to 17 are

08:25

members of Hamas seen that proven how

08:27

many Hamas terrorists have been killed

08:29

don't know at least 9,000 so happy to

08:32

believe those numbers how many people

08:34

believe those numbers you're happy to

08:36

believe those numbers of course I'm

08:37

happy to believe those numbers because

08:39

Israel is a de Democratic country with

08:40

the rule of law and they hold people

08:42

accountable when they violate those laws

08:44

right okay I mean see I I think the

08:45

problem with questioning the numbers

08:47

from the Palestinian health authority is

08:49

that most other agencies independent

08:52

agencies broadly agree that these

08:54

numbers are about right and if they're

08:56

right then 12,000 13,000 children have

08:59

been killed and I would I would argue

09:02

that it's very hard to see how the

09:04

radicalization issue that the Israelis

09:06

talk about will not be exacerbated by

09:09

killing 13,000 innocent

09:12

kids right and can I just address some

09:14

of the points she made because they're

09:15

all just egregious lies I mean she's a

09:17

paid propagandist for the state of

09:19

Israel I think way being a propagandist

09:22

em or defending the Chinese Communist

09:25

Party defending the Chinese Communist

09:27

Party against crimes

09:30

people let me speak Emily let me speak

09:33

you just spoke just flagrant lies for

09:35

the last minute when I was on this show

09:38

10 years ago I was actually speaking out

09:40

against RT on Russia Today can you say

09:43

the same I'm a completely independent

09:44

journalist you are literally a paid

09:46

propagandist for the Israeli military

09:48

you just had the audacity to sit down

09:49

with an Israeli military official the

09:51

Israeli military and I would be Happ so

09:53

you just were working for free you

09:55

literally said that you worked for the

09:56

ministry of strategic Affairs that

09:57

you've worked with stand with us which

09:59

is appendage of the Israeli government

10:00

let me address the things that you just

10:02

threw out there which are lies yes of

10:04

course they received grants from the

10:05

knesset no they don't em that is Absolut

10:08

Egypt Israel has look it up on look it

10:11

up on the internet Emily I'm not sure

10:12

why you're lying again but this what you

10:14

guys do deflect you lie nevered funding

10:16

the is keep speaking over each other the

10:19

entire time legal then stop lying Abby

10:22

let me speak stop lying Israel has

10:25

Israel has has bragged the fact that

10:27

Egypt just follows their orders okay so

10:29

we know know that the aid is being

10:30

prevented not only by fanatical Israelis

10:32

who are blocking the aid trucks proudly

10:35

um but from Israel themselves Emily and

10:38

we know that almost as many civilians

10:40

have been shot by Israeli forces just

10:42

trying to scavenge for Aid and food than

10:46

civilians have died on October 7th this

10:48

is regular routine massacres routine

10:51

massacres that are happening of just

10:52

desperate starving Palestinians that are

10:55

amassing to seek food is there anything

10:58

that is more depra

10:59

than

11:04

that you can't just

11:06

keep 7 million pound in one let me try

11:10

let me try if should be getting in TR

11:13

per day let me come if I can bring it

11:15

back to the debate which is about the

11:17

genocide uh on March the 26 2024 UN

11:21

Human Rights report called for Israel to

11:23

be placed under an arms embargo on the

11:25

grounds it has carried out acts of

11:27

genocide in Gaza Fran es albanes the UN

11:30

special reporter on human rights in the

11:33

Palestinian territory said in her report

11:35

there were reasonable grounds to believe

11:36

that Israel was carrying out three of

11:38

the five acts which I named earlier

11:40

defined as genocide and she said these

11:42

were killing Palestinians causing them

11:44

seriousy bodily or mental harm

11:47

deliberately inflicting conditions of

11:48

Life calculated to bring about the

11:50

physical destruction of the population

11:52

in whole or in part so to that point

11:56

Emily just forget the ad hominum stuff

11:58

for a moment on this you've got the UN

12:01

you've got the icj you've got uh

12:04

increasingly the Americans actually

12:07

trying to distance themselves from

12:08

what's Happening Here a growing sense

12:11

that there is if not full-blown genocide

12:14

a version of genocide happening here

12:16

that meets quite a few criteria I mean I

12:19

think the definition of genocide

12:20

requires intent to destroy a nation um

12:24

and that is not what we're seeing it's

12:25

not what we've seen since day one you

12:27

have to remember the fact that this war

12:29

cabinet minister who actually said he

12:31

would be happy to drop a nuclear bomb on

12:34

Gaza that would have been the

12:35

destruction of plenty of stupid comments

12:38

from many Israeli politicians that I

12:39

don't agree with you said earlier that

12:41

nobody on this is not the we did not

12:43

start this this is not a war we wanted

12:46

not a war we started further Isel does

12:49

have the ability to commit genocide and

12:51

they are not why would we send 17,000

12:53

trck that's such an abuser crazy thing

12:55

to say you have a gun to the head of

12:56

Palestinian saying we can commit

12:58

genocide over each other I want to

13:00

finish my point about the the cabinet

13:02

member who said that was quite crystal

13:05

clear in his genocidal intent he thought

13:07

it would be fine to drop a bomb a

13:09

nuclear bomb on Gaza you said earlier

13:11

that nobody on the cabinet nobody under

13:14

Netanyahu from the start of his War had

13:17

ever espoused any genocidal thoughts or

13:19

statements he did that guy I didn't say

13:21

that no one in in government has said

13:24

that I said that the quotes she

13:25

specifically mentioned are inacurate but

13:27

what about the guy who got fired

13:28

specifically for saying

13:30

about so do you accept there have been

13:32

people with that mindset on the cabinet

13:35

I think there are people who have made

13:37

all kinds of egregious statements on

13:39

both sides and I can give you a few

13:40

examples of genocidal intent if you want

13:42

from the other side because that's

13:43

really the only side that has proven we

13:45

can come to that we can come to that but

13:47

on that point do you accept then that

13:49

there are people in Israeli government

13:52

albeit he was fired for it who have

13:55

espoused genocidal sentiment they have I

13:58

don't know of anyone who is in the

14:00

current Israeli government that would

14:02

support any form of genocide has anyone

14:05

ever have on both Sid okay Abby five

14:08

pages yeah five pages of people

14:11

including social media posts of

14:13

celebrities including some of the people

14:15

I know that doesn't that doesn't qualify

14:17

as a legitimate intent to carry out a

14:19

genocide they included one from a

14:21

comedian on there well not to mention

14:23

the fact that if we talk about the

14:24

illegitimacy

14:26

completely decimated every

14:29

cultural aspect of life in Gaza has been

14:32

completely obliterated to make it

14:35

uninhabitable and unsurvivable for

14:37

future Generations there I mean that is

14:39

hard

14:41

to that is hard to argue when you look

14:43

at what's happened in Northern Gaza

14:45

particular it's pretty much been leveled

14:47

I've been there I've seen it with my own

14:48

eyes why would anyone expect regular

14:51

Palestinians to be able to go back to

14:52

homes that don't exist where are they

14:54

going to go many of them already have

14:56

started going back and they need to

14:57

reconstruct Gaza the same way that they

14:59

needed to reconstruct Gaza after 2021

15:01

but they're going to have to do so

15:03

together with Partners whether it's

15:04

Israel the United States or other Arab

15:06

nations in a post Hamas reality and and

15:09

if we're talking about the problem in in

15:11

in Gaza and how the Palestinians are

15:12

suffering you cannot remove Hamas from

15:15

this equation Hamas is the the group

15:18

that has been persecuting the

15:19

Palestinian people as well well that is

15:22

true Abby I don't think there any

15:23

question I I don't think there's any

15:25

question Hamas has been suppressing and

15:28

oppressing its own people I think that

15:30

they have become increasingly vocal in

15:33

their desire to cause maximum damage to

15:36

Israel and to Jewish people they've said

15:38

since October the 7th through their

15:40

official spokesman that they will do

15:42

this again and again and again that

15:44

actually is genocidal rhetoric if you're

15:47

pledging to destroy a people in as many

15:51

numbers as you can as often as you can

15:53

that is a form of genocide isn't

15:56

it look what precipitated even the

15:59

origin of Hamas Hamas didn't just grow

16:02

out of thin a I mean it was precipitated

16:04

by about question Decades of brutal

16:07

occupation and ethnic cleansing yeah but

16:09

what about question whether or not Hamas

16:10

is genocidal as in its intent I disagree

16:13

and Emily's saying look look Hamas is

16:16

reacting they're an armed resistance

16:18

group trying to fight for their I'm Not

16:21

Jus they've done

16:24

and the United States also called Nelson

16:26

Mandela in thec a terrorist organization

16:28

I

16:30

to fight for the liberation of Palestine

16:33

do you think an obligatory do you think

16:36

Israel is a terrorist organization em do

16:39

you think Israel is a terrorist

16:40

organization can you answer my question

16:42

do you think Hamas is a terrorist

16:43

organization did I already did let me

16:46

explain something do you think that the

16:47

acts committed on October 7th were

16:49

legitimate you think that gang rape that

16:52

act that

16:54

isra hang hang on do you think

16:57

October let me ask you let me ask you

17:00

the question which has made me Infamous

17:02

famous whatever you want to do but do

17:03

you condemn Hamas for what they did on

17:05

October the

17:07

7th I'm not going to sit here and give

17:09

an obligatory condemnation of Hamas I

17:11

will terrorist attack what I think

17:14

surely on pure Humanity grounds you

17:17

cannot watch the devastating murder of

17:19

1200 people and not say it was a

17:21

Despicable Terror and condemn the people

17:24

who did it look look listen I'm not

17:27

going to give an obligatory condemnation

17:28

of what I will do is cond that

17:31

precipitate violence what I will do is

17:34

condemn the roots of the violence

17:37

because inevitably you will have

17:39

blowback when you deny millions of

17:40

people basic human rights when they are

17:42

living under brutal medieval Siege and

17:45

barbaric military occupation a fascist

17:47

military occupation in the West Bank

17:49

Hamas doesn't govern the West Bank look

17:51

at what Israel has done in the West Bank

17:53

can't condemn Hamas for what they

17:55

October 7th this is not about Hamas well

17:58

it's

17:59

what will be

18:01

get I'm not going to sit here and

18:03

condemn Hamas the entire War I'm sorry

18:06

this entire War has been because of what

18:09

Hamas did in October the 7th you can go

18:11

back in history you can go back in

18:13

history and you can find arguments on

18:15

both sides in the last 70 years I've had

18:17

I've had the argument many times canot

18:20

doing what you're doing is what am I

18:22

doing what you're doing is conflating

18:26

and pretending like there are two equal

18:27

sides oh they has been fighting for

18:29

decades there's always reasons on both

18:31

sides to start the violence no that's

18:32

not true there's one side that's an

18:34

occupying colonizing force that

18:36

continuously and violently expels and

18:39

subjugates and brutalizes and terrorizes

18:42

the other side they are living under the

18:44

boot of Israeli authorities whether

18:46

you're in Gaza and occupied completely

18:48

militarily by the outside or whether

18:50

you're living under a fascist military

18:51

dictatorship in the West Bank so do you

18:53

if you violence that the root of the

18:56

violence 75 years ask

18:59

I hear you let me ask you this if you

19:01

believe then that Hamas are a armed

19:03

resistance as you put it and they have

19:06

presumably then you believe what they

19:07

did on October the 7th was justified do

19:11

you I didn't say that no absolutely

19:14

would not sitting here justifying

19:16

anything is The Logical extension of

19:18

your argument if you believe they're an

19:19

armed resistance and they are they are

19:22

doing what they're doing because they

19:23

are responding to acts of Terror by

19:25

another side surely you would say that

19:27

what they did was justified

19:29

or if it's not justified what is

19:31

it you either condemn it or you think

19:34

it's Justified I don't think you can sit

19:35

in the middle can

19:37

you um I look I don't need to sit here

19:40

and give a condemnation of Hamas I I I

19:42

can explain why Hamas exists I don't

19:45

have to support what they did I don't

19:47

have to justify or rationalize it in the

19:50

face as a person who studies history you

19:53

can sit as a person who studies history

19:56

Emily Emily you're doing the exact same

19:59

thing and you're projecting it on me

20:00

okay so do you condemn the actions of

20:02

Israel for killing 13,000 children I

20:05

don't accept that 13,000 children have

20:07

been killed that hasn't that isn't

20:10

anything that's verified the problem but

20:12

it depends on the context of what's

20:13

Happening do I condemn

20:15

C Palestinians their reality do I think

20:18

Israel is always denying Palestinians

20:20

their reality this is why Palestinians

20:21

have other do I think everything Israel

20:24

has done even in this war is correct no

20:27

there's no problem with saying that what

20:28

has been wrong what have they done I

20:30

already said the same thing about Hamas

20:32

I already said about Hamas Emily tell me

20:35

what Israel's done that's that's wrong

20:36

in your eyes I think that that should

20:38

have been a priority from the beginning

20:40

uh in order to plan a safe evacuation

20:43

route before they implemented a military

20:45

plan I think that everything has been

20:46

done too late okay Abby what would you

20:50

say Hamas have done

20:54

wrong uh I look again I'm not going to

20:57

sit up here I don't even know really

20:58

what happened is it to condemn rape you

21:01

can't find anything anything all the

21:04

lies that have been perpetrated look

21:06

Hamas killing civilians I'm sure

21:09

atrocities were committed on both sides

21:11

um on October 7th I I'm sure octob 7 at

21:15

were

21:16

committ many civilians were killed by

21:19

isra Emily Emily I can't even hear

21:21

myself talk because you just can't stop

21:24

AB speak um there's so many lies that

21:26

were put out by Israeli authorities that

21:28

it's really hard to parse through look I

21:30

mean we don't know how many civilians

21:31

were killed in the crossfire by Israeli

21:34

soldiers um and listening to Hannibal

21:36

directive so look the the mass rapeing

21:40

babies the The Ripping the babies out of

21:41

pregnant women's stomachs I mean all of

21:43

these things are such egregious lies

21:46

that I really can't sit up here and

21:48

condemn things that I don't even know

21:49

what happened what about the atrocities

21:51

which Hamas recorded and filmed

21:53

themselves and then posted to the world

21:56

to brazenly boast about what they were

21:58

doing what about

22:00

that look nothing that Hamas did on

22:03

October 7th compares to what Israel has

22:06

done in I'm asking you a direct question

22:08

about the fact that they boasted about

22:11

the mass Mur just make it all about

22:13

October 7th and that's what I'm saying

22:15

it all pales in comparison

22:19

P that happened I already said I already

22:23

killing civilians is wrong What kill

22:26

civilians is wrong so what Hamas did in

22:27

October 7 was what does that make what

22:29

is has done H hang on I'm trying to

22:31

unpick your argument so if it's wrong to

22:34

kill civilians were Hamas wrong to do

22:36

what they did in October the 7th given

22:38

how many civilians were brutally

22:42

murdered are you doing the same thing to

22:44

Emily and if not just asking you you

22:45

think it was wrong why are you not

22:46

sitting

22:48

herck is it wrong to kill 13,000 why

22:51

can't you ask wrong to kill 100 I

22:54

already said it I already said it I'm

22:57

not going to sit here you're you're

22:59

you're you're basically comparing Hamas

23:01

to Israel I'm not comparing anything you

23:03

said just now unless unless I'm mistaken

23:06

you just said to me that the killing of

23:09

innocent civilians is wrong I then asked

23:12

you fairly self-evidently I think the

23:15

question that in that case given that

23:17

Hamas showed us on tape them killing

23:21

civilians innocent civilians on October

23:24

the 7th do you accept that was wrong yes

23:26

or no you saw you saw the tape yeah they

23:31

they showed us you saw the tape of them

23:32

killing innocent civilians yes they

23:34

literally broadcast it to the world yes

23:36

we all did and so do Israeli soldiers in

23:39

a fashion is for it's like watching

23:42

forget Israel for a moment it's like

23:44

watching Naz if it's wrong to kill

23:46

innocent civilians Abby on social media

23:49

if it's wrong to kill innocent civilians

23:50

I'll ask you one more time you haven't

23:51

got to answer up to you but viewers are

23:54

watching this and they know you haven't

23:55

answered you think it's wrong to kill

23:57

innocent civan answered I I I think I

24:00

think it's wrong to kill innocent

24:02

civilians so what Hamas did was

24:06

wrong she's not going to answer well let

24:08

her answer she wants to last time I'm

24:11

going to ask you so I don't I I already

24:13

look I already told you I'm not going to

24:14

sit here and condemn what Hamas did I

24:17

understand why I don't have to agree

24:19

with what Hamas did right to understand

24:22

wasn't my question I just asked you

24:23

whether the mass

24:25

Mur was wrong to understand why blowback

24:29

for horrific policies of aparte and

24:31

ethnic cleansing there's obviously

24:33

inevitably

24:34

going

24:36

policies yes absolutely it was back but

24:39

was it wrong 100% was it

24:42

wrong I'm not look I I don't know how

24:45

how much you want to just go around the

24:46

mulberry bush like this it's a fairly

24:48

straightforward question I don't see how

24:51

anyone can come isra is doing how can

24:54

you take debate like this and say

24:56

innocent civilians is WR not going to

24:58

tell you what heras did October 7th was

25:00

wrong it makes no sense Abby no

25:05

sense I'm not going to sit here and

25:07

condemn Hamas I'm not going to do the

25:09

obligatory ritual ritual that everyone

25:12

is browbeaten into doing I'm just not

25:14

going to do it per I doing right now is

25:17

your denial I think your denial that

25:19

what they did was a heinous act of

25:21

terrorism is actually in its way as bad

25:25

I'm about to finish my sentence I said

25:27

atrocities were Comm

25:29

and I thinkes are wrong and killing

25:31

innocent civilians are wrong so Hamas

25:33

were wrong to do it you're brow beating

25:35

me into trying to just ask you for a

25:37

straightforward answer this was a

25:38

horrific terrorist attack I I already

25:40

answered you I think your failure to say

25:42

that Hamas did something wrong is

25:44

terrible I think Emily's failure to

25:46

accept that 12 13,000 children have been

25:49

killed is he also terrible right I think

25:51

that the denial going on on both sides

25:54

here which I hear is frankly

25:56

appalling not denying I'm saying that we

25:59

don't have the evidence yet of what the

26:00

numbers are and we don't know what the

26:01

break it is we don't know yet you also

26:04

have to remember the fact that what as I

26:07

said to you Emily the Palestinian health

26:08

authority numbers historically have

26:11

turned out to be proven to be pretty

26:13

accur Authority the Ministry of Health

26:15

has been instructed explicitly by not to

26:17

report combatants the numbers are not

26:19

accurate and they cannot be trusted

26:21

Point as I've just said to you

26:22

historically if you go and check

26:24

historically the Palestinian health

26:26

authority run by Hamas their numbers

26:28

have turned out to be broadly accurate

26:31

that is why they are being treated now

26:34

as reasonably accurate numbers there can

26:36

be no doubt from the footage we've seen

26:38

from the hospitals of endless children

26:41

from the bomb sites endless children

26:43

being killed that there are thousands of

26:45

children being killed to try and deny

26:47

that to try and I'm not denying that

26:49

children are being killed I'm not

26:50

denying that you don't believe the

26:53

Specialties we don't know the numbers

26:55

yet and we cannot state definitively

26:58

especially if the source is Hamas that

27:00

13,000 children have been killed you

27:02

have actually no idea that 9,000 Hamas

27:04

terrorists have been killed according to

27:06

IDF intelligence yeah we do so you

27:08

believe IDF intelligence but you won't

27:10

believe terorist organization absolutely

27:12

I would believe the IDF over a us and UK

27:16

design even been

27:18

proven even if other independent

27:21

agencies who corroborated the

27:23

Palestinian health authority numbers you

27:25

what independent agencies the United

27:27

Nations yeah this is not independent as

27:29

has been proven by this war itself

27:32

members of unra are actually active

27:34

terrorists some of them took part in the

27:35

October 7th Massacre see here's my

27:38

problem with this debate no evidence

27:39

here's my problem with the debate for

27:40

both of you there is a level of denial

27:42

on both sides which I think people in

27:45

the middle who don't have a horse in the

27:47

race right who are looking at this from

27:49

afar they're a gas at the level of

27:51

self-denial they cannot believe Abby

27:53

that you're not prepared to say what

27:55

Hamas did was wrong and they cannot

27:56

believe uh Emily that on your side you

27:59

simply won't accept the obvious fact num

28:01

of H thousands and thousands of children

28:03

are being I I didn't say that thousands

28:05

of people are dying do not know the

28:07

numbers and no I'm not going to accept

28:09

the numbers from Hamas right so you

28:10

don't have to then be accountable for

28:12

the deaths of so many children

28:14

I I don't know what the number is

28:16

therefore I can't come I don't agree

28:18

with that I think Israel needs to

28:20

exercise as much caution as possible

28:21

they kill fewer children if possible of

28:24

course yeah of course do you accept

28:26

they've killed too many children how

28:27

would you don't think that yes first of

28:30

all but I also well that's but I also

28:32

think

28:33

it's many of these casualties are result

28:36

of being used as human shield actually

28:37

what you just said an important adiss

28:39

hang on hang on AB I'm going to come to

28:41

you but that's an important admission

28:43

actually by Emily that she thinks Israel

28:45

has killed too many children I think

28:47

that is a healthy moment children should

28:50

be killed fine you just said you think

28:51

they're killing too many children one is

28:53

too many fine but it's not laughable is

28:56

it uh it's terrible right so I I just

28:59

think that until you can admit on both

29:01

sides what's actually going on that we

29:02

can all see with our own eyes uh I think

29:05

you don't get anywhere with this debate

29:06

let me ask you this we talk about

29:08

genocide and we talk about how this all

29:11

uh plays out at the end how does this

29:13

end Abby I mean how do you actually get

29:16

peace when we can't even have a debate

29:18

without people screaming at each other

29:20

uh but we now know that a lot of Gaz has

29:23

been leveled I don't know if they can go

29:25

back and live there gazin I don't know

29:26

how many more are going to get killed if

29:28

Israel attacks the the Rafa ref refugee

29:30

camp in his efforts to to finish off a

29:32

mass I don't know these answers what I

29:34

do know is I find it very very

29:37

implausible that at the end of this it

29:39

simply all gets sorted out quite quickly

29:41

and the Garin go back to their destroyed

29:43

homes it all gets rebuilt and they'll

29:45

live happily ever after so how does it

29:48

end right I mean well no construction

29:51

material has been allowed in for quite

29:52

some time so there is no rebuilding

29:54

effort that's possible especially when

29:56

you've decimated the entire strip

29:58

demolished every aspect of civilian life

30:01

surgically striking doctors alongside

30:03

their entire families killing

30:05

over journalists many and targeted

30:08

assassinations alongside their entire

30:09

families I mean really the best and

30:11

brightest in Palestinian Society in Gaza

30:13

has been destroyed IDF soldiers posting

30:15

on Tic Tac that they're just blowing up

30:18

mosques because they're bored looting

30:20

and pillaging women's lerie I mean it

30:22

really is depraved levels of sadism

30:25

going on here how does it end a

30:27

negotiated settl

30:28

immediately um I think that what Hamas

30:30

is offering is not Beyond The Pale it

30:33

would be easy for Israel to comply with

30:35

the demands if we look at the five-day

30:37

truce that happened several months back

30:40

uh the Palestinian hostages that

30:42

Israel's been keeping they're not called

30:44

hostages but they should be because

30:45

they're just political prisoners that

30:46

are languishing in military detention

30:49

the vast majority of those political

30:50

prisoners were not charged with anything

30:53

um 30 of them were kids for throwing

30:56

stones so this is this is the kind of

30:58

thing that we're talking about when

30:59

Hamas says release our hostages that's

31:02

who they're talking about um when they

31:03

say the removal of Israeli troops from

31:06

Gaza I don't see how that couldn't be

31:09

complied with I mean look there should

31:11

be a negotiated settlement if you want

31:12

the hostages back today that could

31:14

happen and that's why there's thousands

31:15

of Israelis protesting in the stre well

31:17

H have just rejected the latest uh peace

31:19

deal

31:21

offering well okay is it a permanent

31:23

ceasefire because if you're just talking

31:25

about a six week ceasefire well then

31:28

well then yeah I mean Israel is saying

31:29

they're just going to continue the

31:30

genocide after six weeks how is that um

31:34

something let me

31:36

ask before we go back to em let me ask

31:38

you this Abby do you think hamash should

31:39

stay in power at the end of

31:42

this look I'm I'm whatever the

31:45

Palestinians want that's do that's what

31:47

they will do I mean I think look I'm not

31:50

going to say I'm not going to speak on

31:51

behalf the Palestinians of who their

31:52

leadership should be what I will say is

31:54

Hamas isn't actually the most popular

31:56

faction in Palestinians

31:58

and Hamas is only the result of Israeli

32:00

policy of brutal aparte ethnic cleansing

32:02

and occupation that's why Hamas exists

32:05

any type of Palestinian leadership that

32:07

has arisen is a direct result of Israeli

32:10

brutality so I'm not going to speak on

32:12

behalf of Palestinians and say what

32:13

should or should not happen or who they

32:15

should and should not elect but I will

32:16

say that Hamas is a democratically

32:18

elected leadership of the Gaza Strip I

32:21

understand um let me ask you one more

32:23

question inevitably

32:26

should Poli maintain in place should

32:30

Netanyahu remain in power in Israel

32:32

after

32:32

this no hang on I think that the Israeli

32:36

people have spoken about Netanyahu but I

32:38

think that Netanyahu is the tip of the

32:39

iceberg to blame this all on Netanyahu

32:42

and his so-called

32:43

right should stay in power Foundation of

32:46

what Israel is should he should he stay

32:48

in power after this no he's committing

32:51

genocide no so you're prepared to say to

32:53

the Israeli people no your leaders

32:55

should go you're not prepared to tell

33:01

Inc the Israeli people are out in the

33:03

streets and the tens of thousands saying

33:04

Netanyahu should go there are many

33:06

Palestinians who want Hass to go too I'm

33:08

sure the point is you made B deal

33:12

election you made a big deal election

33:14

you made a big deal of saying it's not

33:15

down to me to tell Palestinian people

33:17

about their leadership and then you

33:18

immediately I give you the the open door

33:20

on nety yeah absolutely you should go

33:23

totally inconsistent well he should be

33:24

tried at the heg and put in the heg

33:26

that's a different question I mean he's

33:27

committing

33:28

question you say you can't interfere in

33:30

Palestinian politics but you're very

33:31

prepared to interfere in Israeli

33:33

politics let me ask you Emily well

33:35

because he's committing genocide he's

33:37

committing genocide and he should be

33:38

tried and thrown in a prison it's a

33:40

matter of international cours Emily

33:42

that's what international court right

33:43

that's what international none of them

33:45

actually spelled out Crystal clearly it

33:47

is genocide it is moving that way I have

33:50

to say uh Emily let me ask you the same

33:52

question how does this end I mean I

33:55

think that Israel as well as Palestinian

33:57

leadership needs to work together with

33:59

other partners especially in the Arab

34:01

world to help rebuild Gaza Israel isn't

34:03

interested in occupying Gaza in any sort

34:05

of permanent way that is not something

34:07

we want we withdrew from that territory

34:09

we do not want it um and I would like to

34:12

see Palestinians be able to return to

34:14

their home safely and elect some form of

34:16

government or leadership that is able to

34:18

actually Implement one day in the future

34:21

some sort of peace process and I think

34:23

that involves working together with

34:25

Community leaders who are on the ground

34:26

that are not aili with Hamas did you

34:29

accept that anything going forward which

34:31

looks like a peace deal would be a

34:33

two-state solution and that Palestine in

34:36

that respect would be an identifiable

34:39

State confirmed by Israel and that they

34:41

would no longer be dependent on Israel

34:44

for the flow of food and water and fuel

34:47

and all the other things which Israel

34:49

has had some control over now for

34:51

decades um in the long term of course

34:54

yeah I I do think that there needs to be

34:55

some sort of solution

34:58

the problem that we're facing today I

35:00

believe is actually the radicalization

35:02

element within Palestinian Society

35:04

because Palestinian leaders don't have a

35:05

mandate to lead not Hamas and not mahmur

35:08

Abbas and we don't have a leadership

35:09

that's able to implement any kind of

35:12

peace deal in any borders and when we

35:15

have that I don't think netanyahu's had

35:17

any interest in a peace deal either I

35:18

think he's been quite happy watching

35:19

Hamas and the Palestinian Authority at

35:22

each other's throats uh since the early

35:24

2000s I don't think he's ever shown any

35:27

real desire to find peace that's why I

35:30

think spokes I personally think I

35:33

personally think both Israel and the

35:35

Palestinians they they both need new

35:37

leadership that actually wants to F to

35:40

forge genuine peace in a two-state

35:42

solution which offers security and

35:44

safety to both sides and maybe it will

35:46

take time but you know what I remember I

35:48

remember in Northern Ireland people

35:50

saying it was equally intractable and

35:51

they eventually got there you just need

35:53

new leadership that knows what it's

35:54

doing who can actually believe in the

35:56

concept of peace we got to leave it

35:58

there Abby Martin Emily Shader thank you

36:00

for a spirited debate I appreciate it

36:02

very much indeed

36:12

thanks

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Genocide DebateIsraeli-Palestinian ConflictUN ReportsHuman RightsGaza SiegeNetanyahuHamasCivilian CasualtiesInternational LawPolitical Commentary
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