“You’ve NO IDEA How Many You’ve Killed?” Piers Morgan vs Avi Hyman

Piers Morgan Uncensored
7 May 202439:57

Summary

TLDRThe transcript captures a tense and revealing debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, featuring an Israeli government spokesman, a pro-Palestine journalist, and the son of Hamas's founder. The discussion touches on the complexities of the conflict, including the Israeli military's actions in Gaza, the issue of civilian casualties, and the differing perspectives on Hamas's role and objectives. The spokesman defends Israel's actions as necessary to counter a terrorist threat, while the journalist and the son of Hamas's founder challenge the Israeli narrative, highlighting the humanitarian crisis and questioning the proportionality of the military response. The conversation also delves into the broader implications of the conflict on the region and the world, with calls for peace and the recognition of human rights for all involved.

Takeaways

  • 📢 The Israeli government spokesman emphasizes that their focus is on eliminating Hamas terrorists, but admits to not having exact figures on civilian casualties, which raises questions about the extent of civilian harm.
  • 🏺 The spokesman argues that Israel is fighting a terrorist organization that has embedded itself within a civilian population, making it difficult to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.
  • 🚨 There is a clear disagreement between the Israeli spokesman and the interviewers regarding the nature of the conflict, with the latter accusing Israel of committing war crimes and potentially carrying out a genocide.
  • 🔍 The interviewers challenge the Israeli narrative that they are taking great care to avoid civilian casualties, given the lack of clarity on the number of civilians killed.
  • 💣 The discussion touches on the broader context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the issue of Hamas's stated goals and the international community's response to the situation.
  • 🤝 Calls are made for peace and an end to violence, with differing views on what constitutes a just and viable solution to the conflict.
  • 🗣️ The debate includes accusations of bias and propaganda, with one side claiming that the other is spreading false narratives and the other asserting that their actions are in defense of their existence.
  • 👥 There is a mention of the role of Arab countries in the conflict, with some arguing that they are working with Israel to counter Hamas, while others dispute this claim.
  • 🏛️ The conversation also addresses the issue of Palestinian rights and statehood, with some arguing that Palestinians should have the same rights as Israelis if they fulfill their responsibilities as citizens.
  • ⛔️ The Israeli spokesman rejects the premise of a military occupation and argues that there has never been a country called Palestine, which is a point of contention in the debate.
  • 🕊️ Despite the heated exchange, both sides express a desire for peace, although their definitions of peace and the path to achieving it differ significantly.

Q & A

  • What was the Israeli government spokesman's stance on the number of Hamas terrorists killed compared to the number of civilian casualties?

    -The Israeli government spokesman was certain about the number of Hamas terrorists killed but admitted he had no idea about the number of civilian casualties.

  • Why did Israel reject the ceasefire proposed by intermediaries?

    -Israel rejected the ceasefire because they believed it was a tactic by Hamas to halt their advance into Rafah, and they maintained their aim to destroy Hamas, bring home hostages, and ensure Gaza does not pose a threat.

  • What is the Israeli Defense Forces' (IDF) approach to avoiding civilian casualties?

    -The IDF does its utmost to avoid civilian casualties, and during the first day of the operation, they took 100,000 civilians out of Rafah.

  • How did the Israeli government spokesman respond to accusations of prioritizing the killing of Hamas terrorists over civilians?

    -The spokesman denied prioritizing terrorists over civilians, stating that their focus is on going after Hamas terrorists, and they do not have exact figures for civilian casualties due to the 'fog of war'.

  • What was the Israeli government spokesman's view on the comparison of civilian casualties in this conflict to other conflicts?

    -He argued that even if the Hamas figures were used, the ratio of civilian to combatant casualties would still be better than in other conflicts.

  • What was Abby Martin's perspective on the situation in Gaza?

    -Abby Martin described the situation as a genocide and ethnic cleansing, criticizing Israel's military operation and arguing that it is resulting in mass slaughter and the violation of international law.

  • What was Mosab Hassan Yousef's view on Hamas?

    -Mosab Hassan Yousef expressed a strong opposition to Hamas, stating that the Arab world, including himself as an Arab, does not want Hamas in power and sees them as a threat.

  • What did Mosab Hassan Yousef suggest as a solution to the conflict?

    -He suggested that the focus should be on removing Hamas from power, and that the Arab world, including Israel, is united in this goal.

  • What was the Saudi foreign Ministry's stance on the Israeli military operations in Rafah?

    -The Saudi foreign Ministry expressed a strong warning against the Israeli occupation forces targeting Rafah and called for an immediate cessation of the massacres and violations of international law.

  • What was Abby Martin's criticism of Mosab Hassan Yousef's views?

    -Abby Martin criticized Mosab Hassan Yousef for spreading anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiments, and for denying the existence of a Palestinian identity.

  • What was the main point of contention between the participants in the debate?

    -The main point of contention was the legitimacy and consequences of Israel's military actions in Gaza, with differing views on the nature of the conflict, the role of Hamas, and the rights of Palestinians.

Outlines

00:00

😠 Contentious Discussion on Israeli Military Action and Civilian Casualties

The first paragraph involves a tense exchange between an Israeli government spokesman and a journalist, Abby Martin, regarding the military operation in Rafa and the number of civilian casualties. The spokesman defends Israel's actions against Hamas, emphasizing their efforts to avoid civilian casualties, but admits to not having an exact figure for the number of civilians killed. The dialogue highlights the complexity of the conflict and the differing perspectives on the issue of civilian casualties in war.

05:00

🤔 Israeli Spokesman's Uncertainty on Civilian Casualties Questioned

In this paragraph, the journalist Abby Martin presses the Israeli government spokesman on the discrepancy between his readiness to provide the number of Hamas terrorists killed and his lack of information on civilian casualties. The spokesman insists that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) make every effort to avoid civilian casualties but also states that they do not have exact figures for civilians killed due to the 'fog of war.' The conversation underscores the scrutiny and skepticism surrounding military operations and their impact on civilian populations.

10:00

😤 Accusations of War Crimes and the Struggle for Gaza

The third paragraph features a pro-Palestinian journalist, Abby Martin, and Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas's founder, discussing the Israeli military operation. Abby Martin criticizes Israel's actions, accusing them of war crimes and a genocidal campaign against Palestinians. Mosab Hassan Yousef counters by emphasizing the threat posed by Hamas and the complexities of the conflict. The dialogue reflects the deeply polarized nature of the discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

15:01

🏺 The Arab World's Stance on Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

In this paragraph, the discussion continues with Mosab Hassan Yousef expressing the view that the Arab world, including Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, does not support Hamas and wants the Islamist group out of power. He argues against the portrayal of Hamas as a representative of the Palestinian people and criticizes those who, in his view, spread false narratives about the conflict. The Saudi foreign ministry's statement, however, calls for an end to the violence and accuses Israel of violating international law, highlighting the complexity of regional politics and alliances.

20:02

📊 Dispute Over Hamas's Intentions and the Human Rights of Palestinians

Abby Martin and Mosab Hassan Yousef debate the nature of Hamas and the human rights of Palestinians. Martin argues against the characterization of Palestinians as terrorists, stating that the group has revised its charter to recognize Israel's existence within the 1967 borders. Yousef insists that Hamas remains a threat to Israel's existence and argues for the importance of removing the group from power. The conversation reflects the deep divisions over the legitimacy of Hamas and the broader struggle for Palestinian rights.

25:03

🚫 Denial of Palestinian Identity and the Existence of Palestine

In the sixth paragraph, Mosab Hassan Yousef denies the existence of a Palestinian identity, arguing that those living in the region are Arabs, not Palestinians. He criticizes those who, in his view, propagate narratives that delegitimize Israel and discredit him personally. Abby Martin counters by accusing Yousef of spreading anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiments. The discussion becomes heated as both participants challenge the other's perspectives and legitimacy, reflecting the intense emotions and historical grievances that characterize the conflict.

30:04

🕊️ The Call for Peace and the Rejection of Violence

The final paragraph sees the participants discussing the prospects for peace in the region. Abby Martin argues that Palestinians are not allowed to advocate for their legal rights and criticizes Israel's use of force against peaceful protesters. Mosab Hassan Yousef calls for the removal of what he describes as a 'savage group' from power and argues that Israel is fighting for its very existence. The dialogue concludes with a call for a reasonable approach to a complex and deeply entrenched conflict.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Civilian Casualties

Civilian casualties refer to the unintended deaths of non-combatants during armed conflict. In the video, the Israeli government spokesman's inability to provide a number for civilian casualties is a point of contention, highlighting the ethical and strategic challenges of military operations in densely populated areas. The script mentions the destruction in Northern Gaza and the debate over the number of civilian deaths, emphasizing the human cost of the conflict.

💡Hamas

Hamas is a Palestinian political organization with a military wing that has been involved in conflicts with Israel. The script discusses Israel's efforts to target and eliminate Hamas militants, which is a central aspect of the conflict. The Israeli spokesman claims success in neutralizing Hamas terrorists, while the opposing speakers criticize the approach and its consequences.

💡Military Occupation

Military occupation describes the control of a territory by a foreign military force. The term is used in the script to describe the Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which is a major point of dispute. The debate touches on the legality, humanitarian impact, and political implications of the occupation, with differing views on its necessity and consequences.

💡Human Rights

Human rights are the basic rights and freedoms to which all individuals are entitled. The script raises the question of whether Palestinians should have the same human rights as Israelis, which is a fundamental issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The discussion reflects on the disparities and the struggle for equal treatment and dignity under international law.

💡Ethnic Cleansing

Ethnic cleansing is the forced removal of an ethnic group from a region by mass expulsion or genocide. In the script, accusations of ethnic cleansing are made against Israel's actions in Gaza, reflecting the severity of the conflict and the deep-seated grievances held by Palestinians. The term is used to evoke the historical context of violence and displacement in the region.

💡Terrorism

Terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, to achieve political aims. The Israeli spokesman in the script refers to Hamas as a 'terrorist organization', justifying military action on the basis of self-defense and the protection of civilians. The term is contentious, with differing views on who constitutes a terrorist and the legitimacy of various actions within the conflict.

💡International Law

International law comprises the set of rules and norms governing relations between states and between states and individuals. The script refers to violations of international law, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The discussion touches on the responsibilities of states towards civilians, the legality of military actions, and the rights of occupied populations.

💡Human Shields

Human shields are non-combatants placed in harm's way to deter an attack on a military objective. The script includes an accusation that Hamas uses human shields, a claim that is disputed by other speakers. The concept is significant as it raises questions about the tactics used by both sides and the ethical dimensions of warfare.

💡Genocide

Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular ethnic or national group. The term is used in the script to describe the perceived intent behind Israel's actions in Gaza, reflecting the extremity of the conflict and the deep emotional and political investment of the parties involved. It underscores the severity of the allegations and the high stakes of the debate.

💡Occupation Forces

Occupation forces are troops that occupy and control an area during or after an armed conflict. In the script, the term is used to describe the Israeli military's presence in the Palestinian territories, which is a central issue in the debate. The term implies a power imbalance and raises questions about sovereignty, self-determination, and the use of force.

💡Palestinian State

A Palestinian state refers to a proposed independent country for the Palestinian people. The concept is a key point of contention in the script, with differing views on its feasibility, legitimacy, and the prerequisites for its establishment. The discussion reflects the aspirations for self-determination among Palestinians and the obstacles to achieving a two-state solution.

Highlights

The Israeli government spokesman acknowledges the military pressure on Hamas but does not provide a clear number of civilian casualties.

The spokesman defends Israel's actions, stating they are fighting a genocidal terror organization and emphasizing the importance of eliminating Hamas.

Hamas is reported to have accepted a ceasefire proposal, but Israel rejects it, indicating a continued military approach.

The Israeli government spokesman argues that Rafa is a refuge for Hamas battalions and that their war aims include destroying Hamas and ensuring Gaza does not pose a threat.

The spokesman emphasizes the IDF's efforts to avoid civilian casualties and mentions the removal of civilians from Rafa.

The interviewee challenges the spokesman on the discrepancy between knowing the number of Hamas terrorists killed and not knowing the number of civilian casualties.

The spokesman refuses to provide an estimate of civilian casualties, citing the 'fog of war' and the focus on targeting Hamas terrorists.

The interviewee expresses astonishment at the Israeli spokesman's inability to provide civilian casualty figures despite claims of careful military operations.

The spokesman asserts that Israel is fighting for its existence against a terrorist organization that has embedded itself within the civilian population.

Abby Martin, a pro-Palestinian journalist, accuses Israel of committing war crimes and calls for an end to the 'genocidal onslaught' on Gaza.

Mosab Hassan Yousuf, son of Hamas's founder, argues that the Arab world does not want Hamas in power and supports Israel's efforts to eliminate the group.

Martin criticizes Mosab's views as promoting anti-Muslim bigotry and argues that the conflict is about more than just Hamas.

Mosab denies the existence of a Palestinian state, claiming that 'Palestine was never born' and arguing against the legitimacy of Palestinian identity.

The debate touches on the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the issue of Hamas's military actions and Israel's broader policies towards Palestinians.

Martin argues that Israel's actions, such as the killing of peaceful demonstrators in Gaza, are violations of international law.

The Israeli spokesman calls for a focus on removing 'savage groups' like Hamas from power before discussing the establishment of a Palestinian state.

The discussion highlights the deep divisions and differing perspectives on the conflict, with calls for peace and the protection of civilian life.

Transcripts

00:00

we're keeping the pressure up the

00:01

military pressure on from us you're an

00:03

official spokesman for the Israeli

00:05

government and you have no idea how many

00:07

civilians you've killed no you're not

00:09

foggy when it comes to killing

00:10

terrorists you're only foggy it seems to

00:12

me when it comes to killing civilians

00:14

Israel needs to be stopped before they

00:17

continue this horrific Onslaught Pi This

00:20

is war in war people die Abby does not

00:24

have the authority uh she's just a

00:27

self-appointed lowgrade journalist

00:31

isra intelligence do you agree with the

00:33

principle that Palestinians should be

00:35

entitled to exactly the same human

00:37

rights as Israelis Israel is fighting

00:41

for its very

00:43

existence it's pretty dramatic 24 hours

00:45

in Israel's war on Hamas first Israel

00:47

said it was finally preparing to enter

00:49

Rafa the southern gazen city which

00:51

become a refuge to a million and a half

00:53

Palestinians allies have warned against

00:55

it fearing catastrophic civilian impact

00:57

but Israel says that Rafa is also the

00:59

Refuge for the remaining Hamas

01:01

battalions last night Hamas announced it

01:03

would accepted the ter terms of a

01:04

ceasefire proposed by intermediaries but

01:07

Israel rejected it and overnight it sees

01:09

rafas Crossing with Egypt a key entry

01:11

point for Vital humanitarian Aid and

01:13

began attacking the east of the city in

01:15

a moment I'll talk to Abby Martin and

01:17

masan youf but first from Jerusalem is

01:20

Israeli government spokesman Abby hman

01:22

Mr hman thank you very much indeed for

01:23

joining me why did Israel reject this uh

01:27

apparent offer of a p deal from Hamas

01:31

that they' agreed to hi P thank you so

01:34

much for having me on um I'm not sure

01:35

what Israel has rejected I know that

01:37

Hamas put out a statement that they had

01:40

accepted some kind of a proposal it's

01:43

somewhat unclear to us what proposal

01:45

they accepted this was obviously as my

01:47

prime minister said in the last hour a

01:49

way of trying to torpedo our entry into

01:52

Rua and as you said the last four

01:54

Battalion of Kamas are in Rafa our war

01:56

aims remain the same to destroy Kamas

01:58

bring home the hostages and ensure that

02:00

Gaza doesn't pose a threat to us as the

02:02

Prime Minister has said with or without

02:03

a deal we're going to need to go into

02:05

Rafa so we entered Rafa we're keeping

02:08

the pressure up the military pressure on

02:10

from us that's what worked last time

02:11

when we got about half of the uh

02:13

hostages released and that's what we're

02:15

we're doing now we will keep up the

02:17

pressure and explore all of the

02:18

Diplomatic channels but at the moment

02:20

hamas's position is far far away from

02:22

ours sadly how many civilians in Rafa of

02:27

the 1 and a half million people there is

02:29

is Israel prepared to view as collateral

02:32

damage to eliminate the remaining Hamas

02:36

terrorists as you know the IDF does our

02:39

absolute utmost to avoid civilian

02:41

casualties um just in the first day of

02:43

the operation we've taken 100,000 um um

02:48

citizens civilians from Rafa out of Rafa

02:51

at least 1.4 million okay and it's a

02:54

it's a work in progress so I my question

02:57

you know my question is that you're

02:58

you're trying to eliminate Hamas

02:59

completely but in the process already

03:02

you've pretty much destroyed most of

03:03

Northern Gaza you've already killed up

03:06

to 40,000 people depending on whether

03:08

you accept the uh the Hamas run uh

03:11

health authority numbers obviously a

03:13

number of those people uh are Hamas and

03:16

a large number are innocent civilians

03:19

women and children and if you go into

03:21

someone like Rafa which has a million

03:23

and a half people who've been told to go

03:24

there by Israel who've been displaced

03:27

from their homes which have been

03:28

destroyed in the main and gone of this

03:30

refugee camp how many could die before

03:34

Israel says we can't continue this

03:37

operation Pi we're fighting against

03:40

Hamas a genocidal Terror organization

03:43

I've seen your coverage your tremendous

03:44

coverage of what Hamas did to us in

03:46

October 7th you and I know they want to

03:48

do it again and again and again that's

03:50

their words not mine now we'll do what

03:52

we have to do to go after Hamas to avoid

03:55

civilian casualties something that we

03:57

have successfully done out of that Hamas

03:59

number that you just gave more than

04:01

14,000 are terrorists that we took out

04:04

there's more than 25,000 Hamas and

04:06

Islamic Jihad terrorists how many

04:08

civilians do you believe you've

04:10

killed we we don't have exact figures as

04:13

you know it's the fog of War you got

04:15

exact numbers for Hamas terrorists

04:16

you've killed why wouldn't you know how

04:17

many civilians you've killed because

04:19

obviously our focus is to go after the

04:21

Hamas terrorists and uh hang on I that

04:24

does imply that you you're putting a

04:26

bigger premium on killing Hamas

04:29

terrorists in terms of numbers and

04:31

accountability then you are an innocent

04:33

civilians that can't be right surely if

04:35

you know exactly how many Hamas

04:36

terrorists you've killed you must know

04:38

how many civilians you've killed

04:40

otherwise you're prioritizing the lives

04:43

of terrorists over innocent people here

04:45

with respect don't put words into my

04:47

mouth please I didn't say exactly 14,000

04:50

I said around 14,000 whereas Kamas will

04:52

come out with precise uh numbers that

04:54

statistician give part number for

04:57

civilians well well you can you can use

05:00

the ballpark as far as the Hamas figures

05:03

which I reject as being false well if

05:04

they're false why would you give me

05:06

those I had I gave you the the numbers

05:09

that I had you've told me you know you

05:10

know how many Hamas terrorists you've

05:12

killed but you don't seem to have any

05:13

idea how many civilians you've killed

05:14

I'm just beused why wouldn't you keep

05:16

count of

05:17

both I I don't have that information to

05:20

give you uh PE if I did I would you

05:22

literally no idea how many civilians

05:23

you've been killing I can tell you

05:26

definitively that our aim is to go after

05:28

Hamas

05:30

I'm sorry to push you on this that's

05:32

quite extraordinary you're an official

05:34

spokesman for the Israeli government and

05:36

you have no idea how many civilians

05:39

you've killed I thought you just told me

05:40

that you were particularly careful about

05:43

not killing civilians but if you don't

05:44

know how many you've killed how can you

05:46

say that with any certainty because even

05:49

if you were to go by a ratio of the

05:51

Kamas figures we would still be far

05:54

ahead of any was my question you know it

05:57

wasn't my question I don't I don't have

05:58

the information no idea how many

06:00

civilians you've killed it's not that I

06:02

don't know I'm not authorized to give

06:03

the information I don't have the

06:04

information that's complete nonsense why

06:05

are you authorized to give me the number

06:07

of terrorists you've killed but not the

06:08

number of civilians I don't

06:15

understand can you

06:17

explain Pi we will go after Hamas we

06:21

will ensure that we um you want me to

06:23

believe you're being incredibly careful

06:25

about how many civilians you're killing

06:26

and you have an amazing exemplary record

06:29

but you don't know how many civilians

06:31

you're killing so how do I know you've

06:33

been

06:33

careful P when the dust settles we will

06:36

come out with a proper numbers Hamas

06:38

runs to the Press daily with when the

06:40

dust settles a lot of people will have

06:42

died and you know how many Hamas you've

06:45

killed but you don't know how many

06:46

civilians you've killed and I'm just

06:48

asking you why why is it you've kept a

06:50

record of one but not the

06:52

other I I personally don't have that

06:55

information to give to you you can ask

06:57

me over and over I'm not going to come

06:58

up with more information I

07:01

don't I don't have that information but

07:03

you're an official government spokesman

07:04

for Israeli government and you have no

07:08

idea p i i i came on here to focus on

07:11

what's going on with the war well

07:13

actually you came on here to answer my

07:14

questions I think yeah and and I I don't

07:17

have an answer for you for that and I

07:18

didn't intend to press you on this point

07:20

because I assumed that you would not

07:21

respond the way you have but I've never

07:23

had an Israeli spokesman who simply said

07:25

I I have no idea particularly after you

07:28

boasted about the fact you've been very

07:30

smart in the way you've avoided killing

07:31

civilians how do you know if you've got

07:33

no idea how many you've killed because I

07:35

know the way in which the IDF operates I

07:38

know um the way in which we go after the

07:42

terrorists in the best possible way it's

07:44

not what I've said it's what general P

07:45

betrayus has said it's what um John

07:48

Spencer from West Point has said

07:50

it's it's what multiple uh British

07:54

generals have said Israel goes out of

07:56

its way to avoid civilian casualties

07:58

that's what we'll do if you can to me to

08:00

another um Conflict by which they have

08:03

um evacuated got out of Harm's Way

08:05

civilians to the extent that Israel has

08:08

done then fine sorry with respect Mr how

08:11

can you

08:12

possibly expect me to accept any

08:15

comparisons to any other conflict or War

08:18

given that you do not know how many

08:19

civilians you've killed because you

08:22

understand that uh I can't uh prosecute

08:24

the war over the over the media I can't

08:27

ask you for basic basic information I'm

08:30

just honestly I'm I'm not trying to trap

08:32

you and I'm not trying to unfairly

08:34

Harang you I think people are watching

08:36

this and they make their own conclusions

08:38

I just find it astonishing that the

08:39

moment I asked you how many Hamas you

08:41

killed you could tell me immediately and

08:43

the moment I asked you about civilians

08:45

you haven't got a clue literally that

08:47

you're not even prepared to issue a

08:48

ballpark number and I I think people

08:50

will find that staggering particularly

08:53

given that you are insistent that you're

08:55

doing everything you can to avoid

08:56

killing civilians to which again I

08:58

simply ask how do you know if you don't

09:00

know how many you're killing how can you

09:01

possibly be sure that you are a doing

09:03

better than other other people Waging

09:06

War elsewhere or be that you have any

09:09

idea how many you're killing you you

09:10

don't

09:11

clearly the IDF monitors every single um

09:15

action that it takes it weighs out the

09:17

options it doesn't tell you the official

09:19

spokesman Avid and it avoids cing

09:22

casualties in the best possible way how

09:23

do you know Mr even if you to take

09:26

please even if you you sorry with

09:28

respect you on here as the official

09:30

Israeli government spokesman and and you

09:33

you don't want to be asked how many

09:34

you've killed because you don't know and

09:36

yet you want us to draw comparisons to

09:38

other conflicts in a positive way for

09:40

Israel and you want to tell me that IDF

09:42

make a record of every single thing

09:44

they're involved in but they don't give

09:46

it to you the government spokesman so

09:48

that when I ask you you have no idea do

09:50

you understand how ridiculous that

09:52

sounds with

09:54

respect with all due respect I've told

09:56

you that even if you were to use the

09:58

Kamas figures the ratio would still be

10:00

better than any other Army and that's

10:01

where the comparison can be done however

10:03

we know above and beyond that that the

10:06

Kamas figures are not accurate and we

10:08

know from former conflicts that Hamas

10:10

throws in uh anyone that's you know

10:13

someone could have passed away from a

10:14

heart attack someone could have uh why

10:17

is it that Israel actually after

10:19

previous why is it after previous death

10:21

tolls have been released by Hamas

10:23

through the Palestinian health authority

10:26

uh they've actually turned out to be

10:28

ones that Israel has ured with in the

10:31

main do can you not count

10:34

either Pi we're in the fog of war with

10:37

fighting for our very existence you're

10:39

not foggy when it comes to killing

10:40

terrorist you're only foggy it seems to

10:42

me when it comes to killing civilians

10:44

we're we're fighting as terrorist

10:45

organization that spent the last 16

10:47

years embedding itself underneath and

10:49

within a civilian population they're

10:52

fighting for mosques from hospitals from

10:54

un facilities I I I don't know if

10:56

there's a comparison of any war in

10:58

modern history hisory um in which a

11:01

terrorist organization has embedded its

11:03

way itself the way that Hamas has in

11:06

Gaza we are doing our very utmost to go

11:09

after Hamas and like I said when the

11:11

dust settles you will see

11:13

that okay uh ay hman the Israeli

11:17

government spokesman thank you very much

11:18

well I'm joined now by the pro Palestine

11:21

journalist and commentator Abby Martin

11:23

and by mosab Hassan yusf the son of

11:24

hamas's founder and former leader author

11:27

of a new book from Hamas to America

11:29

welcome back to both of you uh Abby

11:31

Martin I found that I've got to say a

11:32

quite extraordinary interview um to be

11:36

an official government spokesman and

11:38

admit you have no idea how many

11:40

civilians you've killed whilst trying to

11:42

simultaneously compare yourself

11:44

favorably to other civilian death ratios

11:48

in in war seemed to me

11:52

staggering indeed I mean especially

11:54

since we have seen the comparison as the

11:56

dust has been settling real time on our

11:59

bones we see Israel has committed in

12:01

fact some of the most heinous war crimes

12:04

in modern history appears and as we're

12:06

seeing the invasion now of Rafa cutting

12:09

off the last vestage of escape for

12:11

Palestinians the last vestage of of Aid

12:14

delivery 1.3 million Palestinians

12:16

including 600,000 children with nowhere

12:19

left to go this is what Palestinians

12:21

were told was a safe Corridor that is

12:24

why they all fled to Rafa Rafa has been

12:27

bombarded for the last several weeks

12:29

killing dozens of people every day so I

12:32

think at this point 6 months into a

12:34

genocide to be deliberating whether or

12:36

not Israel should continue with this

12:39

Onslaught this military operation that

12:41

will result in Mass Slaughter to

12:44

continue their ethnic cleansing of Gaza

12:46

is frankly absurd patently so

12:48

considering what we've seen them do just

12:49

in the last several weeks peers evidence

12:52

of summary executions of doctors

12:55

evidence of mass Graves hundreds of

12:57

bodies bound doz of men women and

13:00

children bound evidence according to the

13:02

UN of Palestinians buried alive using

13:05

drones to lure out Palestinians with

13:08

sounds of crying children so they could

13:10

be shot and killed I mean this is

13:13

unparalleled in modern history actually

13:15

and the devastation that's occurred in

13:17

the Gaza Strip according to the UN will

13:18

take 80 years to rebuild without

13:21

conditions so at this point Israel needs

13:23

to be stopped before they continue this

13:27

horrific Onslaught Pierce mosab um I'll

13:30

get you to respond to what Abby just

13:31

said but just your response to that

13:33

interview with an Israeli government

13:34

spokesman because I got to say I found

13:36

that pretty stunning that he would he

13:38

would be so certain how many Hamas

13:41

terrorists the IDF have killed but but

13:43

admit he had no idea how many civilians

13:46

have been killed given that it's the

13:47

deaths of the civilians that is getting

13:50

Israel so much unpopular reaction around

13:54

the

13:57

world because because we cannot send

14:01

Israelis to Rafa and to dangerous zones

14:04

to uh collect statistics and count uh

14:08

the numbers uh it's uh it's very

14:11

dangerous Zone we Israel is looking from

14:15

the outside and also who said that

14:17

Israel is only uh responsible for the

14:19

killing of gazans mostly Hamas

14:23

responsible first of all for taking

14:25

human

14:25

Shields second their Bobby traps How

14:29

Could You differentiate the death that

14:31

it was caused by an air strike or by

14:34

Hamas death trap how how do we know the

14:38

difference well

14:39

yeah people die listen listen to me all

14:43

this moral Pier no listen to me listen

14:45

to me all this dilemma you know you're

14:48

going with your whatever morality This

14:51

is war in war people die you need to

14:55

wake up to this reality accept it stop

14:57

this denial we are in the face of

15:00

savages who hijacked an entire Society

15:03

this is a very difficult war no other

15:06

Army can do the job and I'm not willing

15:08

to risk thousands of lives of foot

15:11

soldiers to deal with this type of

15:13

savages who hijack the entire

15:15

Society a 100,000 people could have died

15:19

Israel is doing everything they could

15:21

don't reduce it to the point do you have

15:25

statistics who cares well actually no I

15:28

think you're missing auth Jord the Arab

15:31

world don't want Hamas at whatever cost

15:34

whatever it cost we want to remove Hamas

15:36

from Power okay I understand that that's

15:38

a different question my point is why do

15:41

you well why does my my question is this

15:43

for you why is it that the if as you say

15:47

Israel has no way of working out who's

15:50

being killed here and I know all about

15:52

war my brother served in wars in Iraq

15:56

and Afghanistan my brother-in-law served

15:58

in Wars my grand grandfather served in

15:59

Wars my uncle served in Wars I don't did

16:02

a lecture about what Warfare is but I do

16:05

find it surprising that Israel's

16:07

official spokesman months and months

16:10

into this war is able to tell me

16:12

immediately how many Hamas terrorists

16:15

have been killed by Israeli forces but

16:17

admits he hasn't got a clue how many

16:20

civilians have been killed and I'm sorry

16:22

I think most viewers most viewers will

16:25

find that you say is way

16:29

have a way of checking how many Hamas

16:30

they killing

16:33

M uh listen it's Israel responsibility

16:36

to know the death of their own citizens

16:39

this is their responsibility I don't

16:40

think I think your question was absurd

16:42

this is why you put him on the spot he

16:44

was not prepared for but this is not

16:45

going to change the reality on the

16:47

ground the reality on the ground Hamas

16:50

must go I the only uh side want Hamas to

16:55

stay is the Iranian ayat and and for

16:59

some stupid reason Karen in America

17:03

wants Hamas to stay but the Arab world

17:06

let me tell you something Jordan Egypt

17:08

Saudi Arabia the majority of the Arab

17:11

world we are Arabs I am Arab we are not

17:13

Palestinians we don't want Hamas we

17:16

don't want Islam we want islamists out

17:20

of power okay it's as simple as that

17:23

they have been killing Jewish and Arab

17:25

children this is not your game this is

17:28

not hair game it's not about statistics

17:31

it's about doing the correct thing of

17:34

removing Hamas from power end of the

17:36

story interruped because you you quoted

17:38

Saudi Arabia in your rant there so let

17:40

me read you a a a statement from a Saudi

17:44

foreign Ministry the Ministry of Foreign

17:46

Affairs expresses the Kingdom of Saudi

17:48

Arabia's warning of the dangers of the

17:50

Israeli occupation forces targeting the

17:52

city of Rafa as part of his systematic

17:54

bloody campaign to storm all areas of

17:56

Gaza Strip and displace his residents

17:58

towards the unknown in light of a lack

18:00

of safe zones after the massive

18:02

destruction caused by the Israeli War

18:04

Machine the ministry affirms the

18:05

Kingdom's categorical rejection of the

18:07

occupation forces continued blatant

18:09

violations of international resolutions

18:12

calling for the cease the cessation of

18:13

these massacres and their violation of

18:15

international law and international

18:17

humanitarian law without deterrence

18:19

which exacerbates humanitarian crisis

18:21

and limits International Peace efforts

18:23

the ministry renewed the Kingdom's

18:24

demand the International Community to

18:26

intervene immediately to stop the

18:28

genocide carried out by occupation

18:30

forces against defens of civilians in

18:32

the occupied Palestinian territories so

18:34

when you say all Arabs agree with you

18:36

mosab actually they don't that is the

18:38

Saudi foreign Ministry saying they want

18:41

it to stop right now speak as we

18:43

speak as we speak the uh intelligence

18:47

Services of the Arab world all of them

18:49

in a joint operation room with Israel to

18:53

rid of Hamas I don't care about some

18:55

politician trying to make a political

18:57

statement it's false the reality on the

19:00

ground we don't want Hamas we don't want

19:03

islamists we don't want this Anarchy

19:05

this revolution without a moral compass

19:08

we don't want to globalize it we don't

19:10

want to bring it to the United States

19:12

the game is over Hamas is out and their

19:16

death warranty has been issued it's a

19:19

finished job and we're going ra and we

19:22

are going to eliminate every last one

19:25

okay let me bring in Abby Abby be

19:27

listening to this I mean

19:29

fundamentally I understand why Israel

19:33

and Israelis want to eliminate H Hamas

19:36

completely because this is a terror

19:38

group who are wedded to the eradication

19:40

of Israel and everybody in it in fact

19:42

they have reiterated uh publicly through

19:45

their official spokesman a desire to

19:47

commit as many October the 7th as they

19:49

can so I completely understand why

19:52

Israel wants to get rid of these

19:54

terrorists the the question is how do

19:57

they do that without killing many many

20:00

more civilians and as we saw from the

20:02

Saudi statement there are many uh Arab

20:04

countries now in the region increasingly

20:06

concerned that if there is a full attack

20:08

on Rafa which has a million and a half

20:10

people a lot of civilians are going to

20:15

die right and I and you know to your

20:17

point before I think the death toll is

20:19

actually vastly undercounted considering

20:21

how we have not even began to excavate

20:24

the bodies under the rubble so I would

20:26

say that the death to is a vast

20:27

undercount as far as mosab point about

20:29

Hamas I think that you know m mosab is

20:31

the Palestinian who hates Palestinians

20:33

he's he's developed a lucrative career

20:35

being able to lie about basic facts

20:37

about this conflict and so when he says

20:40

Palestinians or Hamas what he really

20:41

means is all Arabs and all Muslims in

20:44

fact um I've seen that plain as day in

20:47

his social media and talks he thinks

20:49

that all Muslims are terrorists and so I

20:51

mean this is credit to the point that he

20:54

is actually credited to jailing what is

20:56

called the Mandela the palestin and

20:59

Mandela Marwan bargi this is a guy who

21:01

he put in prison 20 years ago who was

21:03

marching side by side with Israeli Peace

21:05

activists denouncing Hamas killing

21:07

civilians so again I mean when we're

21:10

looking at someone who's worked for

21:11

Israeli intelligence who spouts the same

21:13

rhetoric as israelies who say Hamas but

21:16

what they really mean is all

21:18

Palestinians I mean it's really hard to

21:20

debate someone on the fundamental

21:22

reality and the principles of you know

21:24

the facts of this conflict now to your

21:26

point Piers about what should they do

21:28

about Hamas I reject the premise of

21:30

Israel's genocide I'm not going to sit

21:32

here and say Yes um Hamas is a terrorist

21:35

organization and there need to be

21:36

eradicated of course that's not true and

21:38

I think that we can both agree you mean

21:40

that's impossible task it's not true

21:43

that something needs to be done about

21:45

Hamas I don't agree with that framework

21:47

and the parameters of that debate why

21:49

because Israel's been because Israel's

21:51

been committing ethnic cleansing and

21:53

genocidal policies against the

21:54

Palestinians for 70 ham literally

21:58

Abby hang on Hamas literally has a

22:01

stated Charter of the elimination of

22:04

Israel that is the purest

22:06

personification of a publicly stated

22:08

policy of genocide I can imagine there

22:11

that's not true their revised Charter

22:13

says that they actually recognize the

22:15

existence of the Israeli State among

22:16

1967 borders that that's the revised

22:20

Charter and they actually make a

22:21

political differentiation between

22:22

Zionism and Judaism that's

22:24

the keep pointing to you keep pointing

22:27

to a random spokes person yeah yeah but

22:29

he's the he's actually he's not random

22:31

he's the official spokesman for Hamas

22:33

and he said literally two weeks after

22:36

October the 7th we are going to do this

22:38

again and again and again that is an

22:39

existential genocidal threat to the

22:42

existence of everyone in Israel clearly

22:44

said publicly on camera he's Brazen

22:46

about it look I think that when you're

22:49

comparing one guy and his statement to

22:52

literally genocidal statements okay but

22:55

look at the official spokespeople of

22:57

Israel peers and look at the

22:59

cannot compare you cannot compare the

23:01

two it's a complete false equivalency

23:03

one guy is saying one thing the other

23:05

dozens of Israeli ministers and cabinet

23:07

officials and public media personas on

23:10

TV are saying one thing and actually

23:12

doing it on the he would allow H

23:16

power it's not up to me Piers Hamas is

23:19

representative of large you've been

23:21

expressing many opinion what's your Mar

23:23

bargi Marmon bargi is the most popular

23:26

unifying figure in Palestinian Society

23:28

he would resoundingly win in an election

23:30

against Hamas so what this is about this

23:32

isn't about Hamas this is about

23:34

eliminating every faction of resistance

23:37

peaceful or not it is not about Hamas

23:39

all about what Hamas did on October the

23:42

7th but but here's I think we both know

23:45

it's not because what is the military

23:47

occupation founded upon when did Hamas

23:49

come into power we know that this isn't

23:51

just about Hamas what was Israel doing

23:53

in the West Bank the year prior to

23:55

October 7th they killed 500 Palestinians

23:58

8

23:58

children this is ethnic cleansing this

24:01

is a military occupation as long as you

24:02

have these policies in place you will

24:04

never get to the root of the violence

24:07

peers all right masab there was an

24:09

allegation there that you think all

24:11

Muslims are terrorists what's your

24:12

response to what Abby Martin

24:15

said well you know this is ab's

24:18

desperate attempt to discredit me I am a

24:21

man of the field I fought against Hamas

24:23

as part of intelligence legitimate

24:25

intelligence organization against Savage

24:29

group that were

24:31

targeting uh civilians in suicide

24:33

bombing attacks waves of suicide bombing

24:36

attacks that they killed people

24:38

indiscriminately so Abby today want me

24:41

for some reason to apologize for saving

24:44

human life because my Truth uh

24:47

challenges her convenient

24:50

truth um Abby does not have the

24:52

authority she's just a self-appointed

24:56

lowgrade journalist how can you be a

24:59

journalist and you call this a genocide

25:01

ethnic cleansing and she just keep

25:03

repeating ethnic cleansing genocide

25:05

colonialism Etc none of it is real

25:09

including Palestine it's only in your

25:11

head none of it is existential Palestine

25:15

was never born how can you free it it

25:19

was never there it's just a colonial

25:21

entity and some people choose to make it

25:24

into a national identity and this parrot

25:27

has been just repeating Hamas propaganda

25:30

Maran baruti that she's talking about

25:32

him she never met him I knew Maran

25:35

before he got to power he's a criminal

25:38

he killed five people he has blood on

25:40

his hands he cheated on his wife he has

25:43

a secret son that he never revealed it

25:45

to the public of course I can criticize

25:48

him and I can criticize all the

25:50

criminals that I know personally she's

25:53

been there only for a visit and maybe

25:55

she had some falafil sandwich you know

25:57

and she really was blown away of the

25:59

Palestinian experience there is no such

26:02

a thing as Palestine it's about time to

26:05

retire find a different job you're not a

26:07

journalist you don't qualify even to be

26:08

a

26:09

mother wow

26:12

Abby uh massab um you know it's usually

26:16

a public figure if they were caught

26:18

lying about half the things that they

26:19

said they would be completely

26:20

discredited and never allowed airtime

26:23

you are spewing such ahistorical

26:26

anti-arab bigotry that not even The

26:28

Fringe of Israeli society would agree

26:30

with you I mean not

26:33

evenl I'm not anti-arab I am Arab I am

26:36

Arab this is my ethnicity Islam is just

26:39

anti I am not a Muslim we are

26:44

Arabs okay then anti-muslim bigotry

26:46

which is frankly appalling considering

26:48

that there's a billion people on the

26:49

planet who would car be characterized as

26:51

you as you know extremists who need to

26:53

be used Force against according to you

26:56

but masab um not even Israeli his iians

26:58

would agree with the fact that you claim

27:00

that there's no military occupation in

27:02

the West Bank that there's no apartheid

27:04

state Israelis at least admit yes those

27:07

things exist but here's why they're

27:08

necessary and Justified they don't even

27:11

agree with you you're so Fringe that I

27:14

don't even know where you're coming from

27:15

I mean so again if we can't even agree

27:17

with the basic facts of the conflict and

27:19

the reality in front of our eyes I don't

27:21

know how we can really even discuss

27:24

this most yeah because you don't qualify

27:28

well I think the her CR listen everyone

27:31

Everyone's entitled to an opinion best

27:34

listen best case scenario if there's an

27:37

occupation it's between Israel and

27:39

Jordan or it's between Israel and Egypt

27:41

because it was not an occupation of a

27:43

country called Palestine there was never

27:46

Palestine in history this is not an

27:48

absurd statement it's reality Palestine

27:50

never exist it was not a country it was

27:53

not a nation it's not an ethnic group we

27:56

are Arabs we are the Arabs of Judea and

27:59

Samaria and when I was born like

28:02

millions of Palestinians we had

28:04

Jordanian uh birth certificate the

28:07

people of Gaza were Egyptian with with

28:10

Egyptian birth certificate there was no

28:12

Palestine yasat created this entity uh

28:17

and everybody believed him and this lie

28:20

must die this why I don't like what Abby

28:22

and her likes doing by trying to

28:25

delegitimize Israel she's trying to

28:28

discredit me who gave you the authority

28:30

how dare you a of that Reg a child

28:35

intelligence it is not funny it's not

28:38

funny your T your narrative need to stop

28:42

because you are creating cha listen Abby

28:45

you are bringing chaos to the United

28:47

States and you will be held

28:51

accountable you are just a criminal like

28:53

them sure okay masab you can't be taken

28:56

seriously and you're not legitimate

28:58

because you are literally you have

29:00

worked for isra intelligence out your

29:02

own people but

29:05

listen my reality as well you can't

29:07

discredit my reality as well I was in

29:09

the West Bank I had assault rifles

29:11

pointed at my head from a 17-year-old

29:13

American try to discit me you that's an

29:16

occupation you are in my domain right

29:18

now that's a military occupation you are

29:20

in my domain when you come to my domain

29:22

you have to pay respect you have to

29:24

respect all the effort that I put to

29:26

save human lives and you not reduce that

29:29

into some propaganda because why Earth

29:31

would I respect you the leader of fata

29:34

massab you put the the most unifying

29:37

popular Palestinian figure you are

29:40

credited to putting him in prison this

29:41

is someone who would win an election

29:43

against Hamas he is a peace activist he

29:45

was fighting for a two-state solution

29:47

this isn't about Hamas and you know it

29:49

this is about you shutting down tamping

29:51

down on all factions of Palestinian

29:53

society and let's be clear what is

29:54

Palestine supposed to do what are

29:56

Palestinians supposed to do when in 2018

29:59

thousands of Palestinians in Gaza

30:01

marched peacefully to this fortified

30:03

perimeter fence that Israeli snipers

30:06

have authorized themselves to shoot to

30:07

kill and that's exactly what they did

30:09

they massacred over 200 peaceful

30:13

demonstrators Medics press journalists

30:17

clearly marked press disabled people in

30:19

wheelchairs and children these are all

30:21

violations of international law in the

30:23

Geneva Convention Israeli snipers

30:25

perched up behind sand dunes picked

30:27

people off one by one in a methodical

30:30

Slaughter over the course of several

30:32

months that's when Palestinians tried to

30:34

peacefully protest so I think the

30:37

question should be what should

30:38

Palestinians do because they're not even

30:40

allowed to advocate for their legal

30:42

rights they're not even allowed to raise

30:43

up a Palestinian flag I visited a place

30:46

called sebastia in the occupied West

30:48

Bank and Palestinians were shot and in

30:51

the hospital for simply erecting a

30:53

Palestinian flag on a Hilltop several

30:55

days prior this is the brutal reality of

30:58

military occupation in the West Bank

31:00

massab I mean I want the violence to end

31:03

I empathize with the victims of both

31:05

sides of this that's why I want to get

31:06

to the root the root of the conflict yes

31:09

I don't go out there and say Jews can't

31:11

be trusted like you say about Muslims I

31:13

empathize with all civilian life I

31:15

believe and cherish the sancity of human

31:17

life and that's why I want to get to the

31:19

root of

31:21

why let me ask mosab a question do you

31:25

agree with the principle that

31:26

Palestinians should be entitled to

31:28

exactly the same human rights as

31:35

Israelis

31:36

listen the suffering of the Arabians

31:39

again stop calling them Palestinians

31:41

they are not Palestinians we are Arabs

31:44

we are the Arabs of Judea and Samaria

31:46

and Israel and the Jewish people have

31:48

call themselves of their

31:51

state well you gave them that name you

31:54

forced the International Community and

31:57

the restor well let me rephrase the

31:59

question should the people should the

32:00

people who live in Gaza and on the West

32:02

Bank should they be entitled to the same

32:05

human rights as

32:09

Israelis if they know if they have equal

32:12

responsibility as the decent citizens of

32:15

the state of Israel that includes Arabs

32:18

Jews Christians and all other citizens

32:20

of the state of Israel then yes they

32:22

have equal rights but if they are not

32:25

taken their responsibility if they are

32:28

using violence sending suicide bombers

32:31

and killing babies kidnapping a one year

32:34

old you know how what how do you answer

32:37

to the mother and to the mothers of uh

32:41

the hostages and all those who got

32:43

killed on October 7 you know it's very

32:46

easy to just try to delegitimize Israel

32:50

this is what Abby and her likes have

32:52

been trying to do for so long but they

32:56

don't have the moral

32:58

uh Power to say what Hamas did all the

33:02

waves of suicide bombing attacks October

33:05

7 that was a genocide that was a

33:09

genocide so stop spreading the false

33:12

narrative now regarding to the Arabs who

33:15

live there they need a decent police

33:18

force they need a good economy they need

33:22

good education and if they are able to

33:25

integrate then naturally could be a

33:28

political entity based on their needs

33:31

but right now when she say Palestine who

33:34

is Islamic Jihad fat Maran Bari is Hanah

33:39

Hamas public front they are so

33:42

conflicted we don't have even they don't

33:45

have agenda they don't have leadership

33:47

they don't have legitimacy this is an

33:50

anarchy that has been going on for about

33:53

70 years and it's about time for it to

33:56

stop now to transform to integrate the

33:59

society we must protect the children and

34:03

this is a priority number one before we

34:05

talk about Palestinian state or whatever

34:08

name you want to give it that when we

34:10

have a Savage Group islamists by the

34:13

name of Allah hijacking and using

34:16

children as human sheids their own

34:18

children after killing Jewish children

34:21

then this is a a capital crime we cannot

34:25

blind our eyes we have to deal with

34:28

priorities first we remove this Savage

34:30

group out of power if ab's intention

34:33

were pro pro peace Then This is Our

34:36

intention that we should unify our

34:38

efforts toward this main goal first goal

34:42

priorities then after that we can talk

34:44

about the future and this criminal you

34:47

call Maran baruti in Israeli prison how

34:50

how are you supposed to differentiate

34:51

who is and who is not Hamas when Israeli

34:54

authorities have literally called almost

34:56

every entity in Gaz and Society Hamas

34:58

including anra they even are calling

35:00

students on college campuses Hamas I

35:03

mean there's summary executions of

35:04

doctors thrown in Mass graves because

35:07

they're called Hamas so I'm sorry that

35:09

this label has been rendered completely

35:12

meaningless and as far as the term human

35:14

Shields look there's been no evidence

35:16

according to Amnesty International

35:17

during castled and the 2014 Onslaught

35:20

and today I mean there is absolutely no

35:22

evidence provided that Hamas uses human

35:25

Shields and that somehow justifies this

35:27

h

35:28

Slaughter of predominantly women and

35:30

children in Gaza and even if they were

35:33

literally standing behind hostages you

35:36

still can't just kill hundreds of people

35:38

in a single air strike because a Hamas

35:40

Commander is right there and that's

35:42

exactly what Israel is admittedly doing

35:44

through AI they're saying that they

35:46

could kill up to a 100 civilians for

35:48

every Hamas official it's absolutely

35:51

outlandish but if a group like Hamas

35:53

launches a terrorist attack on Israel

35:55

that kills 1,00 people they take over

35:58

200 more people hostage including babies

36:01

and Holocaust Survivors that is a

36:03

declaration of war which they knew would

36:06

lead to the kind of response we've seen

36:08

from Israel and Israel would argue and

36:12

they would have some sound argument to

36:14

this that if someone declares war on you

36:16

in that manner and you respond and in

36:19

eliminating the terrorists who committed

36:21

that heus crime civilian casualties are

36:24

incurred they would say that that is

36:26

exactly what has happened in any other

36:28

war in history that the principle is the

36:31

same that the civilian loss of life is

36:33

appalling but that the principle of

36:36

retaliating against a body of people who

36:39

have committed one of the worst Terror

36:41

attacks in living memory that is why

36:43

they're doing

36:46

it here's there's no symmetry between

36:49

the two sides it's complete asymmetrical

36:52

Mass Slaughter of women and kids you

36:55

know that you also

36:58

of women and kids they did you say

37:00

there's no symmetry there there's an

37:02

absolute symmetry but there's no

37:03

symmetry there's no symmetry between an

37:05

occupying colonizing force and the

37:07

people that they're occupying and

37:09

colonizing you could obviously make the

37:11

same argument that preempted October 7th

37:14

that it was a declaration of war to

37:16

Siege Gaza to prevent aid from getting

37:19

in to shoot people that stray too far

37:22

out that are fishing that can't go get

37:25

Medical Aid and are sentenced to death

37:27

within Gaza is that not a declaration of

37:29

war is it not a declaration of war to

37:31

violate international law to maintain a

37:33

brutal fascist military dictatorship in

37:35

the West Bank these are all um these all

37:39

preempted October 7th so it just keeps

37:41

going back and back to what is the root

37:43

of actual violence peers okay mosab I'll

37:45

give the the last word to you where do

37:48

we get peace from all this

37:53

hell listen naturally uh if uh the

37:58

Israeli protocol is not sufficient and

38:01

it's not satisfactory to the

38:03

expectations of uh of ABI and many of

38:08

her

38:09

friends then I say how about we punish

38:13

Hamas by their own laws by the Islamic

38:16

law why don't we follow the Islamic uh

38:20

protocol in this case the Islamic law

38:24

says behead all men and take all women

38:28

and children as booty this is their

38:32

moral stand so she say it's asymmetric

38:37

well we already know that it's a very

38:39

dirty war we are dealing with people

38:41

with the mentality of the seventh

38:43

century tribalism it's not an easy

38:46

mission for a democracy for any country

38:49

for any modern Army for any civilized

38:51

society to deal with this so we need to

38:53

be reasonable I understand if people are

38:56

anti-war war and they are pro children

38:59

pro- life me too but sometimes we have

39:01

to make very difficult choices and

39:02

Israel was really pushed to the corner

39:05

Israel is fighting for its very

39:06

existence I am fighting for my my very

39:08

existence I did not kill any Arab I did

39:11

not kill any of their tribesmen but they

39:13

want me to see exist why because I

39:16

criticize their religion I criticize

39:18

their stupid ideas that are leading

39:20

towards Global chaos and instead of

39:24

spreading the narrative the victim

39:26

narrative what we need to do actually we

39:28

need to localize it not globalize it and

39:30

we need to be reasonable of our

39:33

expectations uh from a democracy in the

39:36

middle of Crisis okay mosab husan youf

39:39

Abby Martin it was a spirited debate I

39:42

think I learned as I always do from

39:44

these debates I learned a little bit

39:45

more than I knew before so I thank you

39:47

both very much indeed

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Связанные теги
Middle East ConflictHumanitarian CrisisIsraeli-PalestinianMilitary OperationCivilian CasualtiesTerrorism DebateWar EthicsInternational LawGaza SiegePeace NegotiationConflict Resolution
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