“You’ve NO IDEA How Many You’ve Killed?” Piers Morgan vs Avi Hyman
Summary
TLDRThe transcript captures a tense and revealing debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, featuring an Israeli government spokesman, a pro-Palestine journalist, and the son of Hamas's founder. The discussion touches on the complexities of the conflict, including the Israeli military's actions in Gaza, the issue of civilian casualties, and the differing perspectives on Hamas's role and objectives. The spokesman defends Israel's actions as necessary to counter a terrorist threat, while the journalist and the son of Hamas's founder challenge the Israeli narrative, highlighting the humanitarian crisis and questioning the proportionality of the military response. The conversation also delves into the broader implications of the conflict on the region and the world, with calls for peace and the recognition of human rights for all involved.
Takeaways
- 📢 The Israeli government spokesman emphasizes that their focus is on eliminating Hamas terrorists, but admits to not having exact figures on civilian casualties, which raises questions about the extent of civilian harm.
- 🏺 The spokesman argues that Israel is fighting a terrorist organization that has embedded itself within a civilian population, making it difficult to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants.
- 🚨 There is a clear disagreement between the Israeli spokesman and the interviewers regarding the nature of the conflict, with the latter accusing Israel of committing war crimes and potentially carrying out a genocide.
- 🔍 The interviewers challenge the Israeli narrative that they are taking great care to avoid civilian casualties, given the lack of clarity on the number of civilians killed.
- 💣 The discussion touches on the broader context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the issue of Hamas's stated goals and the international community's response to the situation.
- 🤝 Calls are made for peace and an end to violence, with differing views on what constitutes a just and viable solution to the conflict.
- 🗣️ The debate includes accusations of bias and propaganda, with one side claiming that the other is spreading false narratives and the other asserting that their actions are in defense of their existence.
- 👥 There is a mention of the role of Arab countries in the conflict, with some arguing that they are working with Israel to counter Hamas, while others dispute this claim.
- 🏛️ The conversation also addresses the issue of Palestinian rights and statehood, with some arguing that Palestinians should have the same rights as Israelis if they fulfill their responsibilities as citizens.
- ⛔️ The Israeli spokesman rejects the premise of a military occupation and argues that there has never been a country called Palestine, which is a point of contention in the debate.
- 🕊️ Despite the heated exchange, both sides express a desire for peace, although their definitions of peace and the path to achieving it differ significantly.
Q & A
What was the Israeli government spokesman's stance on the number of Hamas terrorists killed compared to the number of civilian casualties?
-The Israeli government spokesman was certain about the number of Hamas terrorists killed but admitted he had no idea about the number of civilian casualties.
Why did Israel reject the ceasefire proposed by intermediaries?
-Israel rejected the ceasefire because they believed it was a tactic by Hamas to halt their advance into Rafah, and they maintained their aim to destroy Hamas, bring home hostages, and ensure Gaza does not pose a threat.
What is the Israeli Defense Forces' (IDF) approach to avoiding civilian casualties?
-The IDF does its utmost to avoid civilian casualties, and during the first day of the operation, they took 100,000 civilians out of Rafah.
How did the Israeli government spokesman respond to accusations of prioritizing the killing of Hamas terrorists over civilians?
-The spokesman denied prioritizing terrorists over civilians, stating that their focus is on going after Hamas terrorists, and they do not have exact figures for civilian casualties due to the 'fog of war'.
What was the Israeli government spokesman's view on the comparison of civilian casualties in this conflict to other conflicts?
-He argued that even if the Hamas figures were used, the ratio of civilian to combatant casualties would still be better than in other conflicts.
What was Abby Martin's perspective on the situation in Gaza?
-Abby Martin described the situation as a genocide and ethnic cleansing, criticizing Israel's military operation and arguing that it is resulting in mass slaughter and the violation of international law.
What was Mosab Hassan Yousef's view on Hamas?
-Mosab Hassan Yousef expressed a strong opposition to Hamas, stating that the Arab world, including himself as an Arab, does not want Hamas in power and sees them as a threat.
What did Mosab Hassan Yousef suggest as a solution to the conflict?
-He suggested that the focus should be on removing Hamas from power, and that the Arab world, including Israel, is united in this goal.
What was the Saudi foreign Ministry's stance on the Israeli military operations in Rafah?
-The Saudi foreign Ministry expressed a strong warning against the Israeli occupation forces targeting Rafah and called for an immediate cessation of the massacres and violations of international law.
What was Abby Martin's criticism of Mosab Hassan Yousef's views?
-Abby Martin criticized Mosab Hassan Yousef for spreading anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiments, and for denying the existence of a Palestinian identity.
What was the main point of contention between the participants in the debate?
-The main point of contention was the legitimacy and consequences of Israel's military actions in Gaza, with differing views on the nature of the conflict, the role of Hamas, and the rights of Palestinians.
Outlines
😠 Contentious Discussion on Israeli Military Action and Civilian Casualties
The first paragraph involves a tense exchange between an Israeli government spokesman and a journalist, Abby Martin, regarding the military operation in Rafa and the number of civilian casualties. The spokesman defends Israel's actions against Hamas, emphasizing their efforts to avoid civilian casualties, but admits to not having an exact figure for the number of civilians killed. The dialogue highlights the complexity of the conflict and the differing perspectives on the issue of civilian casualties in war.
🤔 Israeli Spokesman's Uncertainty on Civilian Casualties Questioned
In this paragraph, the journalist Abby Martin presses the Israeli government spokesman on the discrepancy between his readiness to provide the number of Hamas terrorists killed and his lack of information on civilian casualties. The spokesman insists that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) make every effort to avoid civilian casualties but also states that they do not have exact figures for civilians killed due to the 'fog of war.' The conversation underscores the scrutiny and skepticism surrounding military operations and their impact on civilian populations.
😤 Accusations of War Crimes and the Struggle for Gaza
The third paragraph features a pro-Palestinian journalist, Abby Martin, and Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas's founder, discussing the Israeli military operation. Abby Martin criticizes Israel's actions, accusing them of war crimes and a genocidal campaign against Palestinians. Mosab Hassan Yousef counters by emphasizing the threat posed by Hamas and the complexities of the conflict. The dialogue reflects the deeply polarized nature of the discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
🏺 The Arab World's Stance on Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
In this paragraph, the discussion continues with Mosab Hassan Yousef expressing the view that the Arab world, including Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, does not support Hamas and wants the Islamist group out of power. He argues against the portrayal of Hamas as a representative of the Palestinian people and criticizes those who, in his view, spread false narratives about the conflict. The Saudi foreign ministry's statement, however, calls for an end to the violence and accuses Israel of violating international law, highlighting the complexity of regional politics and alliances.
📊 Dispute Over Hamas's Intentions and the Human Rights of Palestinians
Abby Martin and Mosab Hassan Yousef debate the nature of Hamas and the human rights of Palestinians. Martin argues against the characterization of Palestinians as terrorists, stating that the group has revised its charter to recognize Israel's existence within the 1967 borders. Yousef insists that Hamas remains a threat to Israel's existence and argues for the importance of removing the group from power. The conversation reflects the deep divisions over the legitimacy of Hamas and the broader struggle for Palestinian rights.
🚫 Denial of Palestinian Identity and the Existence of Palestine
In the sixth paragraph, Mosab Hassan Yousef denies the existence of a Palestinian identity, arguing that those living in the region are Arabs, not Palestinians. He criticizes those who, in his view, propagate narratives that delegitimize Israel and discredit him personally. Abby Martin counters by accusing Yousef of spreading anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiments. The discussion becomes heated as both participants challenge the other's perspectives and legitimacy, reflecting the intense emotions and historical grievances that characterize the conflict.
🕊️ The Call for Peace and the Rejection of Violence
The final paragraph sees the participants discussing the prospects for peace in the region. Abby Martin argues that Palestinians are not allowed to advocate for their legal rights and criticizes Israel's use of force against peaceful protesters. Mosab Hassan Yousef calls for the removal of what he describes as a 'savage group' from power and argues that Israel is fighting for its very existence. The dialogue concludes with a call for a reasonable approach to a complex and deeply entrenched conflict.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Civilian Casualties
💡Hamas
💡Military Occupation
💡Human Rights
💡Ethnic Cleansing
💡Terrorism
💡International Law
💡Human Shields
💡Genocide
💡Occupation Forces
💡Palestinian State
Highlights
The Israeli government spokesman acknowledges the military pressure on Hamas but does not provide a clear number of civilian casualties.
The spokesman defends Israel's actions, stating they are fighting a genocidal terror organization and emphasizing the importance of eliminating Hamas.
Hamas is reported to have accepted a ceasefire proposal, but Israel rejects it, indicating a continued military approach.
The Israeli government spokesman argues that Rafa is a refuge for Hamas battalions and that their war aims include destroying Hamas and ensuring Gaza does not pose a threat.
The spokesman emphasizes the IDF's efforts to avoid civilian casualties and mentions the removal of civilians from Rafa.
The interviewee challenges the spokesman on the discrepancy between knowing the number of Hamas terrorists killed and not knowing the number of civilian casualties.
The spokesman refuses to provide an estimate of civilian casualties, citing the 'fog of war' and the focus on targeting Hamas terrorists.
The interviewee expresses astonishment at the Israeli spokesman's inability to provide civilian casualty figures despite claims of careful military operations.
The spokesman asserts that Israel is fighting for its existence against a terrorist organization that has embedded itself within the civilian population.
Abby Martin, a pro-Palestinian journalist, accuses Israel of committing war crimes and calls for an end to the 'genocidal onslaught' on Gaza.
Mosab Hassan Yousuf, son of Hamas's founder, argues that the Arab world does not want Hamas in power and supports Israel's efforts to eliminate the group.
Martin criticizes Mosab's views as promoting anti-Muslim bigotry and argues that the conflict is about more than just Hamas.
Mosab denies the existence of a Palestinian state, claiming that 'Palestine was never born' and arguing against the legitimacy of Palestinian identity.
The debate touches on the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the issue of Hamas's military actions and Israel's broader policies towards Palestinians.
Martin argues that Israel's actions, such as the killing of peaceful demonstrators in Gaza, are violations of international law.
The Israeli spokesman calls for a focus on removing 'savage groups' like Hamas from power before discussing the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The discussion highlights the deep divisions and differing perspectives on the conflict, with calls for peace and the protection of civilian life.
Transcripts
we're keeping the pressure up the
military pressure on from us you're an
official spokesman for the Israeli
government and you have no idea how many
civilians you've killed no you're not
foggy when it comes to killing
terrorists you're only foggy it seems to
me when it comes to killing civilians
Israel needs to be stopped before they
continue this horrific Onslaught Pi This
is war in war people die Abby does not
have the authority uh she's just a
self-appointed lowgrade journalist
isra intelligence do you agree with the
principle that Palestinians should be
entitled to exactly the same human
rights as Israelis Israel is fighting
for its very
existence it's pretty dramatic 24 hours
in Israel's war on Hamas first Israel
said it was finally preparing to enter
Rafa the southern gazen city which
become a refuge to a million and a half
Palestinians allies have warned against
it fearing catastrophic civilian impact
but Israel says that Rafa is also the
Refuge for the remaining Hamas
battalions last night Hamas announced it
would accepted the ter terms of a
ceasefire proposed by intermediaries but
Israel rejected it and overnight it sees
rafas Crossing with Egypt a key entry
point for Vital humanitarian Aid and
began attacking the east of the city in
a moment I'll talk to Abby Martin and
masan youf but first from Jerusalem is
Israeli government spokesman Abby hman
Mr hman thank you very much indeed for
joining me why did Israel reject this uh
apparent offer of a p deal from Hamas
that they' agreed to hi P thank you so
much for having me on um I'm not sure
what Israel has rejected I know that
Hamas put out a statement that they had
accepted some kind of a proposal it's
somewhat unclear to us what proposal
they accepted this was obviously as my
prime minister said in the last hour a
way of trying to torpedo our entry into
Rua and as you said the last four
Battalion of Kamas are in Rafa our war
aims remain the same to destroy Kamas
bring home the hostages and ensure that
Gaza doesn't pose a threat to us as the
Prime Minister has said with or without
a deal we're going to need to go into
Rafa so we entered Rafa we're keeping
the pressure up the military pressure on
from us that's what worked last time
when we got about half of the uh
hostages released and that's what we're
we're doing now we will keep up the
pressure and explore all of the
Diplomatic channels but at the moment
hamas's position is far far away from
ours sadly how many civilians in Rafa of
the 1 and a half million people there is
is Israel prepared to view as collateral
damage to eliminate the remaining Hamas
terrorists as you know the IDF does our
absolute utmost to avoid civilian
casualties um just in the first day of
the operation we've taken 100,000 um um
citizens civilians from Rafa out of Rafa
at least 1.4 million okay and it's a
it's a work in progress so I my question
you know my question is that you're
you're trying to eliminate Hamas
completely but in the process already
you've pretty much destroyed most of
Northern Gaza you've already killed up
to 40,000 people depending on whether
you accept the uh the Hamas run uh
health authority numbers obviously a
number of those people uh are Hamas and
a large number are innocent civilians
women and children and if you go into
someone like Rafa which has a million
and a half people who've been told to go
there by Israel who've been displaced
from their homes which have been
destroyed in the main and gone of this
refugee camp how many could die before
Israel says we can't continue this
operation Pi we're fighting against
Hamas a genocidal Terror organization
I've seen your coverage your tremendous
coverage of what Hamas did to us in
October 7th you and I know they want to
do it again and again and again that's
their words not mine now we'll do what
we have to do to go after Hamas to avoid
civilian casualties something that we
have successfully done out of that Hamas
number that you just gave more than
14,000 are terrorists that we took out
there's more than 25,000 Hamas and
Islamic Jihad terrorists how many
civilians do you believe you've
killed we we don't have exact figures as
you know it's the fog of War you got
exact numbers for Hamas terrorists
you've killed why wouldn't you know how
many civilians you've killed because
obviously our focus is to go after the
Hamas terrorists and uh hang on I that
does imply that you you're putting a
bigger premium on killing Hamas
terrorists in terms of numbers and
accountability then you are an innocent
civilians that can't be right surely if
you know exactly how many Hamas
terrorists you've killed you must know
how many civilians you've killed
otherwise you're prioritizing the lives
of terrorists over innocent people here
with respect don't put words into my
mouth please I didn't say exactly 14,000
I said around 14,000 whereas Kamas will
come out with precise uh numbers that
statistician give part number for
civilians well well you can you can use
the ballpark as far as the Hamas figures
which I reject as being false well if
they're false why would you give me
those I had I gave you the the numbers
that I had you've told me you know you
know how many Hamas terrorists you've
killed but you don't seem to have any
idea how many civilians you've killed
I'm just beused why wouldn't you keep
count of
both I I don't have that information to
give you uh PE if I did I would you
literally no idea how many civilians
you've been killing I can tell you
definitively that our aim is to go after
Hamas
I'm sorry to push you on this that's
quite extraordinary you're an official
spokesman for the Israeli government and
you have no idea how many civilians
you've killed I thought you just told me
that you were particularly careful about
not killing civilians but if you don't
know how many you've killed how can you
say that with any certainty because even
if you were to go by a ratio of the
Kamas figures we would still be far
ahead of any was my question you know it
wasn't my question I don't I don't have
the information no idea how many
civilians you've killed it's not that I
don't know I'm not authorized to give
the information I don't have the
information that's complete nonsense why
are you authorized to give me the number
of terrorists you've killed but not the
number of civilians I don't
understand can you
explain Pi we will go after Hamas we
will ensure that we um you want me to
believe you're being incredibly careful
about how many civilians you're killing
and you have an amazing exemplary record
but you don't know how many civilians
you're killing so how do I know you've
been
careful P when the dust settles we will
come out with a proper numbers Hamas
runs to the Press daily with when the
dust settles a lot of people will have
died and you know how many Hamas you've
killed but you don't know how many
civilians you've killed and I'm just
asking you why why is it you've kept a
record of one but not the
other I I personally don't have that
information to give to you you can ask
me over and over I'm not going to come
up with more information I
don't I don't have that information but
you're an official government spokesman
for Israeli government and you have no
idea p i i i came on here to focus on
what's going on with the war well
actually you came on here to answer my
questions I think yeah and and I I don't
have an answer for you for that and I
didn't intend to press you on this point
because I assumed that you would not
respond the way you have but I've never
had an Israeli spokesman who simply said
I I have no idea particularly after you
boasted about the fact you've been very
smart in the way you've avoided killing
civilians how do you know if you've got
no idea how many you've killed because I
know the way in which the IDF operates I
know um the way in which we go after the
terrorists in the best possible way it's
not what I've said it's what general P
betrayus has said it's what um John
Spencer from West Point has said
it's it's what multiple uh British
generals have said Israel goes out of
its way to avoid civilian casualties
that's what we'll do if you can to me to
another um Conflict by which they have
um evacuated got out of Harm's Way
civilians to the extent that Israel has
done then fine sorry with respect Mr how
can you
possibly expect me to accept any
comparisons to any other conflict or War
given that you do not know how many
civilians you've killed because you
understand that uh I can't uh prosecute
the war over the over the media I can't
ask you for basic basic information I'm
just honestly I'm I'm not trying to trap
you and I'm not trying to unfairly
Harang you I think people are watching
this and they make their own conclusions
I just find it astonishing that the
moment I asked you how many Hamas you
killed you could tell me immediately and
the moment I asked you about civilians
you haven't got a clue literally that
you're not even prepared to issue a
ballpark number and I I think people
will find that staggering particularly
given that you are insistent that you're
doing everything you can to avoid
killing civilians to which again I
simply ask how do you know if you don't
know how many you're killing how can you
possibly be sure that you are a doing
better than other other people Waging
War elsewhere or be that you have any
idea how many you're killing you you
don't
clearly the IDF monitors every single um
action that it takes it weighs out the
options it doesn't tell you the official
spokesman Avid and it avoids cing
casualties in the best possible way how
do you know Mr even if you to take
please even if you you sorry with
respect you on here as the official
Israeli government spokesman and and you
you don't want to be asked how many
you've killed because you don't know and
yet you want us to draw comparisons to
other conflicts in a positive way for
Israel and you want to tell me that IDF
make a record of every single thing
they're involved in but they don't give
it to you the government spokesman so
that when I ask you you have no idea do
you understand how ridiculous that
sounds with
respect with all due respect I've told
you that even if you were to use the
Kamas figures the ratio would still be
better than any other Army and that's
where the comparison can be done however
we know above and beyond that that the
Kamas figures are not accurate and we
know from former conflicts that Hamas
throws in uh anyone that's you know
someone could have passed away from a
heart attack someone could have uh why
is it that Israel actually after
previous why is it after previous death
tolls have been released by Hamas
through the Palestinian health authority
uh they've actually turned out to be
ones that Israel has ured with in the
main do can you not count
either Pi we're in the fog of war with
fighting for our very existence you're
not foggy when it comes to killing
terrorist you're only foggy it seems to
me when it comes to killing civilians
we're we're fighting as terrorist
organization that spent the last 16
years embedding itself underneath and
within a civilian population they're
fighting for mosques from hospitals from
un facilities I I I don't know if
there's a comparison of any war in
modern history hisory um in which a
terrorist organization has embedded its
way itself the way that Hamas has in
Gaza we are doing our very utmost to go
after Hamas and like I said when the
dust settles you will see
that okay uh ay hman the Israeli
government spokesman thank you very much
well I'm joined now by the pro Palestine
journalist and commentator Abby Martin
and by mosab Hassan yusf the son of
hamas's founder and former leader author
of a new book from Hamas to America
welcome back to both of you uh Abby
Martin I found that I've got to say a
quite extraordinary interview um to be
an official government spokesman and
admit you have no idea how many
civilians you've killed whilst trying to
simultaneously compare yourself
favorably to other civilian death ratios
in in war seemed to me
staggering indeed I mean especially
since we have seen the comparison as the
dust has been settling real time on our
bones we see Israel has committed in
fact some of the most heinous war crimes
in modern history appears and as we're
seeing the invasion now of Rafa cutting
off the last vestage of escape for
Palestinians the last vestage of of Aid
delivery 1.3 million Palestinians
including 600,000 children with nowhere
left to go this is what Palestinians
were told was a safe Corridor that is
why they all fled to Rafa Rafa has been
bombarded for the last several weeks
killing dozens of people every day so I
think at this point 6 months into a
genocide to be deliberating whether or
not Israel should continue with this
Onslaught this military operation that
will result in Mass Slaughter to
continue their ethnic cleansing of Gaza
is frankly absurd patently so
considering what we've seen them do just
in the last several weeks peers evidence
of summary executions of doctors
evidence of mass Graves hundreds of
bodies bound doz of men women and
children bound evidence according to the
UN of Palestinians buried alive using
drones to lure out Palestinians with
sounds of crying children so they could
be shot and killed I mean this is
unparalleled in modern history actually
and the devastation that's occurred in
the Gaza Strip according to the UN will
take 80 years to rebuild without
conditions so at this point Israel needs
to be stopped before they continue this
horrific Onslaught Pierce mosab um I'll
get you to respond to what Abby just
said but just your response to that
interview with an Israeli government
spokesman because I got to say I found
that pretty stunning that he would he
would be so certain how many Hamas
terrorists the IDF have killed but but
admit he had no idea how many civilians
have been killed given that it's the
deaths of the civilians that is getting
Israel so much unpopular reaction around
the
world because because we cannot send
Israelis to Rafa and to dangerous zones
to uh collect statistics and count uh
the numbers uh it's uh it's very
dangerous Zone we Israel is looking from
the outside and also who said that
Israel is only uh responsible for the
killing of gazans mostly Hamas
responsible first of all for taking
human
Shields second their Bobby traps How
Could You differentiate the death that
it was caused by an air strike or by
Hamas death trap how how do we know the
difference well
yeah people die listen listen to me all
this moral Pier no listen to me listen
to me all this dilemma you know you're
going with your whatever morality This
is war in war people die you need to
wake up to this reality accept it stop
this denial we are in the face of
savages who hijacked an entire Society
this is a very difficult war no other
Army can do the job and I'm not willing
to risk thousands of lives of foot
soldiers to deal with this type of
savages who hijack the entire
Society a 100,000 people could have died
Israel is doing everything they could
don't reduce it to the point do you have
statistics who cares well actually no I
think you're missing auth Jord the Arab
world don't want Hamas at whatever cost
whatever it cost we want to remove Hamas
from Power okay I understand that that's
a different question my point is why do
you well why does my my question is this
for you why is it that the if as you say
Israel has no way of working out who's
being killed here and I know all about
war my brother served in wars in Iraq
and Afghanistan my brother-in-law served
in Wars my grand grandfather served in
Wars my uncle served in Wars I don't did
a lecture about what Warfare is but I do
find it surprising that Israel's
official spokesman months and months
into this war is able to tell me
immediately how many Hamas terrorists
have been killed by Israeli forces but
admits he hasn't got a clue how many
civilians have been killed and I'm sorry
I think most viewers most viewers will
find that you say is way
have a way of checking how many Hamas
they killing
M uh listen it's Israel responsibility
to know the death of their own citizens
this is their responsibility I don't
think I think your question was absurd
this is why you put him on the spot he
was not prepared for but this is not
going to change the reality on the
ground the reality on the ground Hamas
must go I the only uh side want Hamas to
stay is the Iranian ayat and and for
some stupid reason Karen in America
wants Hamas to stay but the Arab world
let me tell you something Jordan Egypt
Saudi Arabia the majority of the Arab
world we are Arabs I am Arab we are not
Palestinians we don't want Hamas we
don't want Islam we want islamists out
of power okay it's as simple as that
they have been killing Jewish and Arab
children this is not your game this is
not hair game it's not about statistics
it's about doing the correct thing of
removing Hamas from power end of the
story interruped because you you quoted
Saudi Arabia in your rant there so let
me read you a a a statement from a Saudi
foreign Ministry the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs expresses the Kingdom of Saudi
Arabia's warning of the dangers of the
Israeli occupation forces targeting the
city of Rafa as part of his systematic
bloody campaign to storm all areas of
Gaza Strip and displace his residents
towards the unknown in light of a lack
of safe zones after the massive
destruction caused by the Israeli War
Machine the ministry affirms the
Kingdom's categorical rejection of the
occupation forces continued blatant
violations of international resolutions
calling for the cease the cessation of
these massacres and their violation of
international law and international
humanitarian law without deterrence
which exacerbates humanitarian crisis
and limits International Peace efforts
the ministry renewed the Kingdom's
demand the International Community to
intervene immediately to stop the
genocide carried out by occupation
forces against defens of civilians in
the occupied Palestinian territories so
when you say all Arabs agree with you
mosab actually they don't that is the
Saudi foreign Ministry saying they want
it to stop right now speak as we
speak as we speak the uh intelligence
Services of the Arab world all of them
in a joint operation room with Israel to
rid of Hamas I don't care about some
politician trying to make a political
statement it's false the reality on the
ground we don't want Hamas we don't want
islamists we don't want this Anarchy
this revolution without a moral compass
we don't want to globalize it we don't
want to bring it to the United States
the game is over Hamas is out and their
death warranty has been issued it's a
finished job and we're going ra and we
are going to eliminate every last one
okay let me bring in Abby Abby be
listening to this I mean
fundamentally I understand why Israel
and Israelis want to eliminate H Hamas
completely because this is a terror
group who are wedded to the eradication
of Israel and everybody in it in fact
they have reiterated uh publicly through
their official spokesman a desire to
commit as many October the 7th as they
can so I completely understand why
Israel wants to get rid of these
terrorists the the question is how do
they do that without killing many many
more civilians and as we saw from the
Saudi statement there are many uh Arab
countries now in the region increasingly
concerned that if there is a full attack
on Rafa which has a million and a half
people a lot of civilians are going to
die right and I and you know to your
point before I think the death toll is
actually vastly undercounted considering
how we have not even began to excavate
the bodies under the rubble so I would
say that the death to is a vast
undercount as far as mosab point about
Hamas I think that you know m mosab is
the Palestinian who hates Palestinians
he's he's developed a lucrative career
being able to lie about basic facts
about this conflict and so when he says
Palestinians or Hamas what he really
means is all Arabs and all Muslims in
fact um I've seen that plain as day in
his social media and talks he thinks
that all Muslims are terrorists and so I
mean this is credit to the point that he
is actually credited to jailing what is
called the Mandela the palestin and
Mandela Marwan bargi this is a guy who
he put in prison 20 years ago who was
marching side by side with Israeli Peace
activists denouncing Hamas killing
civilians so again I mean when we're
looking at someone who's worked for
Israeli intelligence who spouts the same
rhetoric as israelies who say Hamas but
what they really mean is all
Palestinians I mean it's really hard to
debate someone on the fundamental
reality and the principles of you know
the facts of this conflict now to your
point Piers about what should they do
about Hamas I reject the premise of
Israel's genocide I'm not going to sit
here and say Yes um Hamas is a terrorist
organization and there need to be
eradicated of course that's not true and
I think that we can both agree you mean
that's impossible task it's not true
that something needs to be done about
Hamas I don't agree with that framework
and the parameters of that debate why
because Israel's been because Israel's
been committing ethnic cleansing and
genocidal policies against the
Palestinians for 70 ham literally
Abby hang on Hamas literally has a
stated Charter of the elimination of
Israel that is the purest
personification of a publicly stated
policy of genocide I can imagine there
that's not true their revised Charter
says that they actually recognize the
existence of the Israeli State among
1967 borders that that's the revised
Charter and they actually make a
political differentiation between
Zionism and Judaism that's
the keep pointing to you keep pointing
to a random spokes person yeah yeah but
he's the he's actually he's not random
he's the official spokesman for Hamas
and he said literally two weeks after
October the 7th we are going to do this
again and again and again that is an
existential genocidal threat to the
existence of everyone in Israel clearly
said publicly on camera he's Brazen
about it look I think that when you're
comparing one guy and his statement to
literally genocidal statements okay but
look at the official spokespeople of
Israel peers and look at the
cannot compare you cannot compare the
two it's a complete false equivalency
one guy is saying one thing the other
dozens of Israeli ministers and cabinet
officials and public media personas on
TV are saying one thing and actually
doing it on the he would allow H
power it's not up to me Piers Hamas is
representative of large you've been
expressing many opinion what's your Mar
bargi Marmon bargi is the most popular
unifying figure in Palestinian Society
he would resoundingly win in an election
against Hamas so what this is about this
isn't about Hamas this is about
eliminating every faction of resistance
peaceful or not it is not about Hamas
all about what Hamas did on October the
7th but but here's I think we both know
it's not because what is the military
occupation founded upon when did Hamas
come into power we know that this isn't
just about Hamas what was Israel doing
in the West Bank the year prior to
October 7th they killed 500 Palestinians
8
children this is ethnic cleansing this
is a military occupation as long as you
have these policies in place you will
never get to the root of the violence
peers all right masab there was an
allegation there that you think all
Muslims are terrorists what's your
response to what Abby Martin
said well you know this is ab's
desperate attempt to discredit me I am a
man of the field I fought against Hamas
as part of intelligence legitimate
intelligence organization against Savage
group that were
targeting uh civilians in suicide
bombing attacks waves of suicide bombing
attacks that they killed people
indiscriminately so Abby today want me
for some reason to apologize for saving
human life because my Truth uh
challenges her convenient
truth um Abby does not have the
authority she's just a self-appointed
lowgrade journalist how can you be a
journalist and you call this a genocide
ethnic cleansing and she just keep
repeating ethnic cleansing genocide
colonialism Etc none of it is real
including Palestine it's only in your
head none of it is existential Palestine
was never born how can you free it it
was never there it's just a colonial
entity and some people choose to make it
into a national identity and this parrot
has been just repeating Hamas propaganda
Maran baruti that she's talking about
him she never met him I knew Maran
before he got to power he's a criminal
he killed five people he has blood on
his hands he cheated on his wife he has
a secret son that he never revealed it
to the public of course I can criticize
him and I can criticize all the
criminals that I know personally she's
been there only for a visit and maybe
she had some falafil sandwich you know
and she really was blown away of the
Palestinian experience there is no such
a thing as Palestine it's about time to
retire find a different job you're not a
journalist you don't qualify even to be
a
mother wow
Abby uh massab um you know it's usually
a public figure if they were caught
lying about half the things that they
said they would be completely
discredited and never allowed airtime
you are spewing such ahistorical
anti-arab bigotry that not even The
Fringe of Israeli society would agree
with you I mean not
evenl I'm not anti-arab I am Arab I am
Arab this is my ethnicity Islam is just
anti I am not a Muslim we are
Arabs okay then anti-muslim bigotry
which is frankly appalling considering
that there's a billion people on the
planet who would car be characterized as
you as you know extremists who need to
be used Force against according to you
but masab um not even Israeli his iians
would agree with the fact that you claim
that there's no military occupation in
the West Bank that there's no apartheid
state Israelis at least admit yes those
things exist but here's why they're
necessary and Justified they don't even
agree with you you're so Fringe that I
don't even know where you're coming from
I mean so again if we can't even agree
with the basic facts of the conflict and
the reality in front of our eyes I don't
know how we can really even discuss
this most yeah because you don't qualify
well I think the her CR listen everyone
Everyone's entitled to an opinion best
listen best case scenario if there's an
occupation it's between Israel and
Jordan or it's between Israel and Egypt
because it was not an occupation of a
country called Palestine there was never
Palestine in history this is not an
absurd statement it's reality Palestine
never exist it was not a country it was
not a nation it's not an ethnic group we
are Arabs we are the Arabs of Judea and
Samaria and when I was born like
millions of Palestinians we had
Jordanian uh birth certificate the
people of Gaza were Egyptian with with
Egyptian birth certificate there was no
Palestine yasat created this entity uh
and everybody believed him and this lie
must die this why I don't like what Abby
and her likes doing by trying to
delegitimize Israel she's trying to
discredit me who gave you the authority
how dare you a of that Reg a child
intelligence it is not funny it's not
funny your T your narrative need to stop
because you are creating cha listen Abby
you are bringing chaos to the United
States and you will be held
accountable you are just a criminal like
them sure okay masab you can't be taken
seriously and you're not legitimate
because you are literally you have
worked for isra intelligence out your
own people but
listen my reality as well you can't
discredit my reality as well I was in
the West Bank I had assault rifles
pointed at my head from a 17-year-old
American try to discit me you that's an
occupation you are in my domain right
now that's a military occupation you are
in my domain when you come to my domain
you have to pay respect you have to
respect all the effort that I put to
save human lives and you not reduce that
into some propaganda because why Earth
would I respect you the leader of fata
massab you put the the most unifying
popular Palestinian figure you are
credited to putting him in prison this
is someone who would win an election
against Hamas he is a peace activist he
was fighting for a two-state solution
this isn't about Hamas and you know it
this is about you shutting down tamping
down on all factions of Palestinian
society and let's be clear what is
Palestine supposed to do what are
Palestinians supposed to do when in 2018
thousands of Palestinians in Gaza
marched peacefully to this fortified
perimeter fence that Israeli snipers
have authorized themselves to shoot to
kill and that's exactly what they did
they massacred over 200 peaceful
demonstrators Medics press journalists
clearly marked press disabled people in
wheelchairs and children these are all
violations of international law in the
Geneva Convention Israeli snipers
perched up behind sand dunes picked
people off one by one in a methodical
Slaughter over the course of several
months that's when Palestinians tried to
peacefully protest so I think the
question should be what should
Palestinians do because they're not even
allowed to advocate for their legal
rights they're not even allowed to raise
up a Palestinian flag I visited a place
called sebastia in the occupied West
Bank and Palestinians were shot and in
the hospital for simply erecting a
Palestinian flag on a Hilltop several
days prior this is the brutal reality of
military occupation in the West Bank
massab I mean I want the violence to end
I empathize with the victims of both
sides of this that's why I want to get
to the root the root of the conflict yes
I don't go out there and say Jews can't
be trusted like you say about Muslims I
empathize with all civilian life I
believe and cherish the sancity of human
life and that's why I want to get to the
root of
why let me ask mosab a question do you
agree with the principle that
Palestinians should be entitled to
exactly the same human rights as
Israelis
listen the suffering of the Arabians
again stop calling them Palestinians
they are not Palestinians we are Arabs
we are the Arabs of Judea and Samaria
and Israel and the Jewish people have
call themselves of their
state well you gave them that name you
forced the International Community and
the restor well let me rephrase the
question should the people should the
people who live in Gaza and on the West
Bank should they be entitled to the same
human rights as
Israelis if they know if they have equal
responsibility as the decent citizens of
the state of Israel that includes Arabs
Jews Christians and all other citizens
of the state of Israel then yes they
have equal rights but if they are not
taken their responsibility if they are
using violence sending suicide bombers
and killing babies kidnapping a one year
old you know how what how do you answer
to the mother and to the mothers of uh
the hostages and all those who got
killed on October 7 you know it's very
easy to just try to delegitimize Israel
this is what Abby and her likes have
been trying to do for so long but they
don't have the moral
uh Power to say what Hamas did all the
waves of suicide bombing attacks October
7 that was a genocide that was a
genocide so stop spreading the false
narrative now regarding to the Arabs who
live there they need a decent police
force they need a good economy they need
good education and if they are able to
integrate then naturally could be a
political entity based on their needs
but right now when she say Palestine who
is Islamic Jihad fat Maran Bari is Hanah
Hamas public front they are so
conflicted we don't have even they don't
have agenda they don't have leadership
they don't have legitimacy this is an
anarchy that has been going on for about
70 years and it's about time for it to
stop now to transform to integrate the
society we must protect the children and
this is a priority number one before we
talk about Palestinian state or whatever
name you want to give it that when we
have a Savage Group islamists by the
name of Allah hijacking and using
children as human sheids their own
children after killing Jewish children
then this is a a capital crime we cannot
blind our eyes we have to deal with
priorities first we remove this Savage
group out of power if ab's intention
were pro pro peace Then This is Our
intention that we should unify our
efforts toward this main goal first goal
priorities then after that we can talk
about the future and this criminal you
call Maran baruti in Israeli prison how
how are you supposed to differentiate
who is and who is not Hamas when Israeli
authorities have literally called almost
every entity in Gaz and Society Hamas
including anra they even are calling
students on college campuses Hamas I
mean there's summary executions of
doctors thrown in Mass graves because
they're called Hamas so I'm sorry that
this label has been rendered completely
meaningless and as far as the term human
Shields look there's been no evidence
according to Amnesty International
during castled and the 2014 Onslaught
and today I mean there is absolutely no
evidence provided that Hamas uses human
Shields and that somehow justifies this
h
Slaughter of predominantly women and
children in Gaza and even if they were
literally standing behind hostages you
still can't just kill hundreds of people
in a single air strike because a Hamas
Commander is right there and that's
exactly what Israel is admittedly doing
through AI they're saying that they
could kill up to a 100 civilians for
every Hamas official it's absolutely
outlandish but if a group like Hamas
launches a terrorist attack on Israel
that kills 1,00 people they take over
200 more people hostage including babies
and Holocaust Survivors that is a
declaration of war which they knew would
lead to the kind of response we've seen
from Israel and Israel would argue and
they would have some sound argument to
this that if someone declares war on you
in that manner and you respond and in
eliminating the terrorists who committed
that heus crime civilian casualties are
incurred they would say that that is
exactly what has happened in any other
war in history that the principle is the
same that the civilian loss of life is
appalling but that the principle of
retaliating against a body of people who
have committed one of the worst Terror
attacks in living memory that is why
they're doing
it here's there's no symmetry between
the two sides it's complete asymmetrical
Mass Slaughter of women and kids you
know that you also
of women and kids they did you say
there's no symmetry there there's an
absolute symmetry but there's no
symmetry there's no symmetry between an
occupying colonizing force and the
people that they're occupying and
colonizing you could obviously make the
same argument that preempted October 7th
that it was a declaration of war to
Siege Gaza to prevent aid from getting
in to shoot people that stray too far
out that are fishing that can't go get
Medical Aid and are sentenced to death
within Gaza is that not a declaration of
war is it not a declaration of war to
violate international law to maintain a
brutal fascist military dictatorship in
the West Bank these are all um these all
preempted October 7th so it just keeps
going back and back to what is the root
of actual violence peers okay mosab I'll
give the the last word to you where do
we get peace from all this
hell listen naturally uh if uh the
Israeli protocol is not sufficient and
it's not satisfactory to the
expectations of uh of ABI and many of
her
friends then I say how about we punish
Hamas by their own laws by the Islamic
law why don't we follow the Islamic uh
protocol in this case the Islamic law
says behead all men and take all women
and children as booty this is their
moral stand so she say it's asymmetric
well we already know that it's a very
dirty war we are dealing with people
with the mentality of the seventh
century tribalism it's not an easy
mission for a democracy for any country
for any modern Army for any civilized
society to deal with this so we need to
be reasonable I understand if people are
anti-war war and they are pro children
pro- life me too but sometimes we have
to make very difficult choices and
Israel was really pushed to the corner
Israel is fighting for its very
existence I am fighting for my my very
existence I did not kill any Arab I did
not kill any of their tribesmen but they
want me to see exist why because I
criticize their religion I criticize
their stupid ideas that are leading
towards Global chaos and instead of
spreading the narrative the victim
narrative what we need to do actually we
need to localize it not globalize it and
we need to be reasonable of our
expectations uh from a democracy in the
middle of Crisis okay mosab husan youf
Abby Martin it was a spirited debate I
think I learned as I always do from
these debates I learned a little bit
more than I knew before so I thank you
both very much indeed
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