"Will You Give ANY Condemnation Of Hamas?" Israel-Palestine Debate | Abby Martin vs Emily Schrader

ared resistance trying to fight for do

you think Israel is a terrorist

organization genocidal intent this is

usually one of the hardest things to

prove in a case of genocide not the case

in Israel's genocide in Gaza so you're

happy to believe those numbers of course

I'm happy to those numbers Israel needs

to be held accountable and stopped

immediately because it's the gravest

crime against humanity that a state can

commit Israel isn't interested in

occupying Gaza in any sort of permanent

way that is not something we want I'm

not spokesperson well he should be tried

at the head and putting the that's a

different question I mean he's

committing question but you say you

can't interfere in Palestinian politics

but you're very prepared to interfere in

Israel

B genocide not a word to be used lightly

in recent months a term which means to

deliberately kill people from a

particular National ethnic group with

the aim of destroying said National

Group has been leveled to Israel for his

treatment of the war in Gaza the Israeli

government has repeatedly denounced the

accusation despite the icj ruling in

January that it was plausible

that genocide could be taking place over

32,000 Palestinians mostly children are

believed to have been killed since the

horrific attack on October the 7th a new

report from the United Nations says

there are reasonable grounds that Israel

has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza

this debate will rage on long after this

war is over as well whether or not

Netanyahu and the Israeli government

need to be held to account for their

actions strong voices and opinions rage

on both sides none more fervent than

those of my next two guests I'm I'm

joined by the American Israeli

commentator Emily Shrader and the

journalist and filmmaker Abby Martin but

welcome to both of you um Abby Martin

let me let me start with you to me

genocide would mean the wholesale

destruction of a people because of their

ethnicity that's how I've always

understood genocide to me there is a

internationally recognized fivepoint

guide to what is genocide it says

killing members of the group causing

serious bodily or mental harm to members

of the group deliberately inflicting on

the group conditions of Life calculated

to bring about his physical destruction

whole or part imposing measures intended

to prevent birst within the group

forcibly forci forcibly transferring

Children of the group to another group

by that

definition do you believe that what's

happened in Gaza constitutes

genocide I do and I think that the fact

that this debate is Raging on shows that

what Israel is doing is egregious enough

the fact that people are actually having

a debate on whether or not it is

genocide like you said the international

court of justice has agreed that there's

a plausible case for genocide I think

that you just clearly articulated

several factors that Israel is in fact

carrying out the mental bodily harm and

carrying about conditions uh to destroy

a group of people clearly the Complete

Siege on Gaza the elimination or the

prevention rather of water food

electricity the prevention of of Aid um

widespread preventable illnesses uh

killing people now uh we see 2 million

people on the brink of starvation

clearly these are all intended to

destroy a group of people when you

compound that with the indiscriminate

bombing in the most densely populated

places on Earth I would absolutely

constitute that as genocidal killing and

then peers compound that with the fact

that there's genocidal intent this is

usually one of the hardest things to

prove in a case of genocide not the case

in Israel's genocide in Gaza we have

five pages just in the icj ruling that

clearly lay out the explicit intent to

carry out genocide and I'll just point

to two uh the Israeli president who said

shortly after October 7th that uh no

civilian in Gaza is innocent um and that

they should have overthrown Hamas and

because they didn't they are essentially

worth uh you know killing and then you

have the defense minister shortly after

October 7th that these are human animals

and we need to act accordingly as he

announced the Complete Siege of Gaza so

taking all that into account I would

absolutely constitute what is happening

is genocide and Israel needs to be held

accountable and stopped immediately

because it's the gravest crime against

humanity that a state can commit okay

Emily Trader I mean there's no doubt

that if you study the direct quotes from

some members of netanyahu's cabinet they

are certainly speaking in a genocidal

way there's no question there's enough

of that being said since October the 7th

there's also

I actually would dispute that I actually

take issue with some of the comments

that she made for example when we're

talking about human animals it was

specific in the context and if you

understand Hebrew you know H that the

context of this was speaking

specifically about Hamas terrorists who

I would agree with that description of

course not all Palestinians are human

animals and Palestinian civilians there

are many innocent people however as

president Herzog said it is also true

that there is a certain degree of

complicity with many of the people of

Gaza now does that mean that they

deserve to die as she stated no of

course not but it's not the same thing

as being innocent either but that would

imply that there are no innocent people

in the Palestinian side I don't think

that it's true that there's no innocent

people I think that there is a certain

degree of complicity with many of the

population as we see in in the polls

according to their polls a Palestinian

conducted poll over 70% of the people in

Gaza support the actions of October 7th

I wish it wasn't the case but Emily

you're

you're just using that PO you're using

that poll to paint all civilians as

guilty do you realize that do that deiz

stated the opposite I said 70% saying

that because said

70% of course there are innocent

Palestinians what does that mean what

you're rationalizing Collective

punishment and starvation of 2 million

people 1 million kids that's what you're

rationalizing by saying that 7% over

17,000 trucks of humanitarian Aid have

entered Gaza some of them that are being

stopped right now on the border are

actually being prevented from entering

by Egypt not by Israel Israel has

inspected them and approved them

furthermore the reason that Aid isn't

being distributed properly isn't because

of Israel it's because of Hamas who has

been taking the Aid shooting Palestinian

civilians inside of Gaza and this is

according to Palestinian statements on

social media in Arabic who have been

speaking about this and then taking that

Aid and selling it at double triple

quadruple the prices of what would be

the regular market for those items so

you cannot place this all in Israel but

if you say that

70% SEC Abby say 70% of people in

Palestine are of this view 50% of that

population are under 18 they're children

so are you including large numbers of

children in your assessment that

Palestinians all all believe this way I

don't believe that the statistics of

that poll how they conducted it included

children however I don't know so I would

have to investigate that include

children then that doesn't include Half

the people in Gaza that's according to

whose statistics according to the Gaza

Ministry of Health which is controlled

by half the population because even this

30,000 number is coming from Hamas hang

I'm not I I realize that but it hasn't

been disputed by other agencies and

historically the Hamas uh figures

through the Palestinian health authority

have been broadly proven to be accurate

over time which 30,000 casualties and

they're claiming that none of them are

comat how is that accurate do even make

sense that's not the number I'm talking

about the number I'm talking about is if

half the population of Gaza is under 18

then saying that 70% of the people in

Gaza have a view would have to include a

lot of children right and if you don't

include the children you don't include

Half the population well then you're

talking about a narrow number of people

comparative sure but you also have to

consider the fact that Hamas is actively

recruiting and indoctrinating youth with

this very extremist jihadist ideology

and it's child abuse it's an unfortunate

reality that Palestinian children are

dealing with why we killing loads why we

killing 12 13,000 innocent children

whatever the exact number is is

Superfluous to the general proportionate

effect that so many kids have been

killed I don't agree with this these

numbers how many you thinked we don't

know we do not know at

this consider the fact that there are

many of them ages of 14 to 17 are

members of Hamas seen that proven how

many Hamas terrorists have been killed

don't know at least 9,000 so happy to

believe those numbers how many people

believe those numbers you're happy to

believe those numbers of course I'm

happy to believe those numbers because

Israel is a de Democratic country with

the rule of law and they hold people

accountable when they violate those laws

right okay I mean see I I think the

problem with questioning the numbers

from the Palestinian health authority is

that most other agencies independent

agencies broadly agree that these

numbers are about right and if they're

right then 12,000 13,000 children have

been killed and I would I would argue

that it's very hard to see how the

radicalization issue that the Israelis

talk about will not be exacerbated by

killing 13,000 innocent

kids right and can I just address some

of the points she made because they're

all just egregious lies I mean she's a

paid propagandist for the state of

Israel I think way being a propagandist

em or defending the Chinese Communist

Party defending the Chinese Communist

Party against crimes

people let me speak Emily let me speak

you just spoke just flagrant lies for

the last minute when I was on this show

10 years ago I was actually speaking out

against RT on Russia Today can you say

the same I'm a completely independent

journalist you are literally a paid

propagandist for the Israeli military

you just had the audacity to sit down

with an Israeli military official the

Israeli military and I would be Happ so

you just were working for free you

literally said that you worked for the

ministry of strategic Affairs that

you've worked with stand with us which

is appendage of the Israeli government

let me address the things that you just

threw out there which are lies yes of

course they received grants from the

knesset no they don't em that is Absolut

Egypt Israel has look it up on look it

up on the internet Emily I'm not sure

why you're lying again but this what you

guys do deflect you lie nevered funding

the is keep speaking over each other the

entire time legal then stop lying Abby

let me speak stop lying Israel has

Israel has has bragged the fact that

Egypt just follows their orders okay so

we know know that the aid is being

prevented not only by fanatical Israelis

who are blocking the aid trucks proudly

um but from Israel themselves Emily and

we know that almost as many civilians

have been shot by Israeli forces just

trying to scavenge for Aid and food than

civilians have died on October 7th this

is regular routine massacres routine

massacres that are happening of just

desperate starving Palestinians that are

amassing to seek food is there anything

that is more depra

than

that you can't just

keep 7 million pound in one let me try

let me try if should be getting in TR

per day let me come if I can bring it

back to the debate which is about the

genocide uh on March the 26 2024 UN

Human Rights report called for Israel to

be placed under an arms embargo on the

grounds it has carried out acts of

genocide in Gaza Fran es albanes the UN

special reporter on human rights in the

Palestinian territory said in her report

there were reasonable grounds to believe

that Israel was carrying out three of

the five acts which I named earlier

defined as genocide and she said these

were killing Palestinians causing them

seriousy bodily or mental harm

deliberately inflicting conditions of

Life calculated to bring about the

physical destruction of the population

in whole or in part so to that point

Emily just forget the ad hominum stuff

for a moment on this you've got the UN

you've got the icj you've got uh

increasingly the Americans actually

trying to distance themselves from

what's Happening Here a growing sense

that there is if not full-blown genocide

a version of genocide happening here

that meets quite a few criteria I mean I

think the definition of genocide

requires intent to destroy a nation um

and that is not what we're seeing it's

not what we've seen since day one you

have to remember the fact that this war

cabinet minister who actually said he

would be happy to drop a nuclear bomb on

Gaza that would have been the

destruction of plenty of stupid comments

from many Israeli politicians that I

don't agree with you said earlier that

nobody on this is not the we did not

start this this is not a war we wanted

not a war we started further Isel does

have the ability to commit genocide and

they are not why would we send 17,000

trck that's such an abuser crazy thing

to say you have a gun to the head of

Palestinian saying we can commit

genocide over each other I want to

finish my point about the the cabinet

member who said that was quite crystal

clear in his genocidal intent he thought

it would be fine to drop a bomb a

nuclear bomb on Gaza you said earlier

that nobody on the cabinet nobody under

Netanyahu from the start of his War had

ever espoused any genocidal thoughts or

statements he did that guy I didn't say

that no one in in government has said

that I said that the quotes she

specifically mentioned are inacurate but

what about the guy who got fired

specifically for saying

about so do you accept there have been

people with that mindset on the cabinet

I think there are people who have made

all kinds of egregious statements on

both sides and I can give you a few

examples of genocidal intent if you want

from the other side because that's

really the only side that has proven we

can come to that we can come to that but

on that point do you accept then that

there are people in Israeli government

albeit he was fired for it who have

espoused genocidal sentiment they have I

don't know of anyone who is in the

current Israeli government that would

support any form of genocide has anyone

ever have on both Sid okay Abby five

pages yeah five pages of people

including social media posts of

celebrities including some of the people

I know that doesn't that doesn't qualify

as a legitimate intent to carry out a

genocide they included one from a

comedian on there well not to mention

the fact that if we talk about the

illegitimacy

completely decimated every

cultural aspect of life in Gaza has been

completely obliterated to make it

uninhabitable and unsurvivable for

future Generations there I mean that is

hard

to that is hard to argue when you look

at what's happened in Northern Gaza

particular it's pretty much been leveled

I've been there I've seen it with my own

eyes why would anyone expect regular

Palestinians to be able to go back to

homes that don't exist where are they

going to go many of them already have

started going back and they need to

reconstruct Gaza the same way that they

needed to reconstruct Gaza after 2021

but they're going to have to do so

together with Partners whether it's

Israel the United States or other Arab

nations in a post Hamas reality and and

if we're talking about the problem in in

in Gaza and how the Palestinians are

suffering you cannot remove Hamas from

this equation Hamas is the the group

that has been persecuting the

Palestinian people as well well that is

true Abby I don't think there any

question I I don't think there's any

question Hamas has been suppressing and

oppressing its own people I think that

they have become increasingly vocal in

their desire to cause maximum damage to

Israel and to Jewish people they've said

since October the 7th through their

official spokesman that they will do

this again and again and again that

actually is genocidal rhetoric if you're

pledging to destroy a people in as many

numbers as you can as often as you can

that is a form of genocide isn't

it look what precipitated even the

origin of Hamas Hamas didn't just grow

out of thin a I mean it was precipitated

by about question Decades of brutal

occupation and ethnic cleansing yeah but

what about question whether or not Hamas

is genocidal as in its intent I disagree

and Emily's saying look look Hamas is

reacting they're an armed resistance

group trying to fight for their I'm Not

Jus they've done

and the United States also called Nelson

Mandela in thec a terrorist organization

I

to fight for the liberation of Palestine

do you think an obligatory do you think

Israel is a terrorist organization em do

you think Israel is a terrorist

organization can you answer my question

do you think Hamas is a terrorist

organization did I already did let me

explain something do you think that the

acts committed on October 7th were

legitimate you think that gang rape that

act that

isra hang hang on do you think

October let me ask you let me ask you

the question which has made me Infamous

famous whatever you want to do but do

you condemn Hamas for what they did on

October the

7th I'm not going to sit here and give

an obligatory condemnation of Hamas I

will terrorist attack what I think

surely on pure Humanity grounds you

cannot watch the devastating murder of

1200 people and not say it was a

Despicable Terror and condemn the people

who did it look look listen I'm not

going to give an obligatory condemnation

of what I will do is cond that

precipitate violence what I will do is

condemn the roots of the violence

because inevitably you will have

blowback when you deny millions of

people basic human rights when they are

living under brutal medieval Siege and

barbaric military occupation a fascist

military occupation in the West Bank

Hamas doesn't govern the West Bank look

at what Israel has done in the West Bank

can't condemn Hamas for what they

October 7th this is not about Hamas well

it's

what will be

get I'm not going to sit here and

condemn Hamas the entire War I'm sorry

this entire War has been because of what

Hamas did in October the 7th you can go

back in history you can go back in

history and you can find arguments on

both sides in the last 70 years I've had

I've had the argument many times canot

doing what you're doing is what am I

doing what you're doing is conflating

and pretending like there are two equal

sides oh they has been fighting for

decades there's always reasons on both

sides to start the violence no that's

not true there's one side that's an

occupying colonizing force that

continuously and violently expels and

subjugates and brutalizes and terrorizes

the other side they are living under the

boot of Israeli authorities whether

you're in Gaza and occupied completely

militarily by the outside or whether

you're living under a fascist military

dictatorship in the West Bank so do you

if you violence that the root of the

violence 75 years ask

I hear you let me ask you this if you

believe then that Hamas are a armed

resistance as you put it and they have

presumably then you believe what they

did on October the 7th was justified do

you I didn't say that no absolutely

would not sitting here justifying

anything is The Logical extension of

your argument if you believe they're an

armed resistance and they are they are

doing what they're doing because they

are responding to acts of Terror by

another side surely you would say that

what they did was justified

or if it's not justified what is

it you either condemn it or you think

it's Justified I don't think you can sit

in the middle can

you um I look I don't need to sit here

and give a condemnation of Hamas I I I

can explain why Hamas exists I don't

have to support what they did I don't

have to justify or rationalize it in the

face as a person who studies history you

can sit as a person who studies history

Emily Emily you're doing the exact same

thing and you're projecting it on me

okay so do you condemn the actions of

Israel for killing 13,000 children I

don't accept that 13,000 children have

been killed that hasn't that isn't

anything that's verified the problem but

it depends on the context of what's

Happening do I condemn

C Palestinians their reality do I think

Israel is always denying Palestinians

their reality this is why Palestinians

have other do I think everything Israel

has done even in this war is correct no

there's no problem with saying that what

has been wrong what have they done I

already said the same thing about Hamas

I already said about Hamas Emily tell me

what Israel's done that's that's wrong

in your eyes I think that that should

have been a priority from the beginning

uh in order to plan a safe evacuation

route before they implemented a military

plan I think that everything has been

done too late okay Abby what would you

say Hamas have done

wrong uh I look again I'm not going to

sit up here I don't even know really

what happened is it to condemn rape you

can't find anything anything all the

lies that have been perpetrated look

Hamas killing civilians I'm sure

atrocities were committed on both sides

um on October 7th I I'm sure octob 7 at

were

committ many civilians were killed by

isra Emily Emily I can't even hear

myself talk because you just can't stop

AB speak um there's so many lies that

were put out by Israeli authorities that

it's really hard to parse through look I

mean we don't know how many civilians

were killed in the crossfire by Israeli

soldiers um and listening to Hannibal

directive so look the the mass rapeing

babies the The Ripping the babies out of

pregnant women's stomachs I mean all of

these things are such egregious lies

that I really can't sit up here and

condemn things that I don't even know

what happened what about the atrocities

which Hamas recorded and filmed

themselves and then posted to the world

to brazenly boast about what they were

doing what about

that look nothing that Hamas did on

October 7th compares to what Israel has

done in I'm asking you a direct question

about the fact that they boasted about

the mass Mur just make it all about

October 7th and that's what I'm saying

it all pales in comparison

P that happened I already said I already

killing civilians is wrong What kill

civilians is wrong so what Hamas did in

October 7 was what does that make what

is has done H hang on I'm trying to

unpick your argument so if it's wrong to

kill civilians were Hamas wrong to do

what they did in October the 7th given

how many civilians were brutally

murdered are you doing the same thing to

Emily and if not just asking you you

think it was wrong why are you not

sitting

herck is it wrong to kill 13,000 why

can't you ask wrong to kill 100 I

already said it I already said it I'm

not going to sit here you're you're

you're you're basically comparing Hamas

to Israel I'm not comparing anything you

said just now unless unless I'm mistaken

you just said to me that the killing of

innocent civilians is wrong I then asked

you fairly self-evidently I think the

question that in that case given that

Hamas showed us on tape them killing

civilians innocent civilians on October

the 7th do you accept that was wrong yes

or no you saw you saw the tape yeah they

they showed us you saw the tape of them

killing innocent civilians yes they

literally broadcast it to the world yes

we all did and so do Israeli soldiers in

a fashion is for it's like watching