Fundamentals of LPVOs: Cheap vs Expensive
Summary
TLDRIn this video, Ian McCollum interviews Mike Branson of Gideon Optics at Shot Show 2024, discussing the features and pricing of various low-power variable optics (LPVOs). Mike explains the trade-offs between affordability and performance, emphasizing that while more expensive optics offer better glass and light transmission, a well-designed, budget LPVO like Gideon's can meet the needs of many shooters. The conversation highlights the importance of matching the optic to the user's requirements and skill level, rather than blindly pursuing high-end, expensive options.
Takeaways
- π₯ Ian McCollum interviews Mike Branson of Gideon Optics at Shot Show 2024, discussing the company's new LPVO (Low Power Variable Optic) offerings.
- π€ Mike Branson's background includes experience with Primary Arms, Swamp Hawks, and now his own startup, Gideon Optics.
- π The discussion focuses on the features and pricing of different LPVOs, comparing high-end models to Gideon Optic's more affordable options.
- π‘ Mike explains that while more expensive optics may offer better glass and light transmission, it doesn't always translate to practical benefits for the average shooter.
- π¦ The importance of light gathering is highlighted, especially for hunting scenarios where every bit of light can make a difference.
- π° The price differences between various LPVOs are attributed to factors such as glass quality, manufacturing location, and the level of performance the user is willing to pay for.
- π Mike discusses the challenges of designing LPVOs, including the trade-offs between magnification, size, weight, and optical performance.
- π§ The conversation touches on the repeatability and quality control of turret adjustments, and how it affects the price of optics.
- πΉ The role of the user's skill set and the importance of practice are emphasized, suggesting that high-end equipment is not always necessary for achieving good results.
- π The global manufacturing landscape and its impact on product quality and cost are briefly explored, illustrating the complex nature of modern production.
- πΊπΈ Ian McCollum and Mike Branson both express a commitment to supporting the Second Amendment and making high-quality optics accessible to all.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion between Ian McCollum and Mike Branson in the video?
-The main topic of discussion is the comparison and evaluation of different low power variable optics (LPVOs), focusing on their features, performance, and price points.
What are some factors that contribute to the price variation among LPVOs?
-Factors that contribute to price variation include the quality of glass, light transmission, optical design, manufacturing costs, and the level of performance required by the user.
What is the significance of the 34mm tube and 28 millimeter objective lens in the LPVO discussed by Mike Branson?
-The 34mm tube and 28 millimeter objective lens are significant because they allow for better light gathering and easier viewing at 10 power, compared to smaller optics. However, this also makes the LPVO a bit larger and heavier.
What is the role of the reticle in an LPVO, and how does it affect the accuracy of the shots?
-The reticle is crucial for aiming and determining bullet drop compensation. In second focal plane LPVOs, the reticle size remains constant regardless of zoom level, meaning the bullet drop compensation is only accurate at the highest magnification.
Why does Mike Branson emphasize the importance of quality parts and toughness in LPVOs?
-Quality parts and toughness ensure the durability and reliability of the LPVO, which is essential for various shooting applications, especially in harsh conditions or during competitions and hunting expeditions.
What is the significance of the price difference between a Primary Arms 1 to 8 Platinum and a Night Force attacker?
-The price difference reflects the differences in manufacturing origin, glass quality, and light transmission. Japanese-made optics like the Primary Arms typically have better glass and light transmission, justifying the higher price for those seeking the highest performance.
What does Mike Branson suggest for users who are unsure about the value of expensive LPVOs?
-Mike Branson suggests that users should research and understand the specific features and performance improvements that higher-priced LPVOs offer, and consider whether they need those features for their intended use before making a purchase.
How does Mike Branson view the current state of affordable LPVOs and their capabilities?
-Mike Branson views the current state of affordable LPVOs positively, noting that significant progress has been made, and they can offer high performance at a fraction of the cost of more expensive options, making them suitable for many users.
What is the importance of repeatability in LPVO adjustments, and how does it affect the price?
-Repeatability in adjustments ensures consistent and reliable zeroing of the scope, which is critical for precision shooting. Higher quality and more consistent adjustments often come with higher-priced LPVOs due to better manufacturing processes and quality control.
What is the significance of the discussion on the Second Amendment and affordable firearms in the context of the video?
-The discussion emphasizes the importance of making high-quality shooting equipment accessible to all, not just those who can afford expensive gear. It highlights the Second Amendment's applicability to everyone, regardless of their economic status, and the desire to democratize access to firearms and shooting sports.
Outlines
π₯ Introduction to LPVO Discussion
The paragraph introduces the topic of low power variable optics (LPVO) with a focus on the variety of options available in the market, ranging from cheap to expensive. The speaker, Ian McCollum, engages in a detailed conversation with Mike Branson from Gideon Optics about the features and price points of different LPVOs. They discuss the importance of magnification, range, weight, and the limitations set by physics. The conversation touches on the value of investing in high-end optics versus more affordable options, and the features that can be improved with increased cost.
π Optic Quality and Performance
This paragraph delves into the quality and performance aspects of different optics, highlighting the differences between Japanese and Chinese-made optics. The discussion emphasizes the importance of light transmission, especially in low-light conditions, and how it can affect the user's ability to gather light and see clearly. The conversation also explores the concept of diminishing returns in terms of performance and cost, and the need for customers to decide how much performance they are willing to pay for based on their specific needs and applications.
π οΈ Engineering and Design of LPVOs
The focus of this paragraph is on the engineering and design challenges associated with creating LPVOs. The discussion revolves around the constraints of physics, particularly in relation to the size and weight of the optics. The speaker talks about the trade-offs between magnification levels and the resulting eyebox, and the importance of repeatability in adjustments for precision shooting. The paragraph also mentions the innovation by Primary Arms in creating a smaller and lighter optic without compromising on quality, which is seen as a significant achievement in the field.
π‘ Illumination and Adjustments in Optics
This paragraph discusses the complexities of illumination features in LPVOs and the potential issues that can arise, such as illumination failure. The conversation explores the balance between the cost, complexity, and reliability of illuminated reticles versus non-illuminated ones. The paragraph also touches on the quality control aspects of optic adjustments, highlighting how the price of a scope can be influenced by the level of quality and precision in its components. The discussion points out the global nature of manufacturing and the impact of labor costs on the final product.
πΉ The Relevance of Precision and Cost in Shooting
The paragraph examines the relevance of precision and cost in shooting, particularly in Precision Rifle Series (PRS) competitions. It discusses how shooters invest in high-end equipment to minimize variables and improve their accuracy. The speaker reflects on the progress made in the field and how current civilian equipment often surpasses historical military-grade weapons. The paragraph concludes with a passionate defense of the Second Amendment and the importance of making high-quality shooting equipment accessible to all, regardless of their economic status.
π Conclusion and Recommendations for LPVOs
In the concluding paragraph, the speaker wraps up the discussion on LPVOs by reinforcing their accessibility and value to a wide range of users. The conversation briefly revisits the topic of different types of optics, such as prism and red dot sights, and the speaker's personal preference for a combination of both. The paragraph ends with a plug for Gideon Optics, promoting their affordable yet capable LPVOs and pistol optics, and encourages viewers to explore their options based on their needs and budget.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘LPVO (Low Power Variable Optic)
π‘Optical Design
π‘Magnification
π‘Weight
π‘Reticle
π‘Light Transmission
π‘Eyebox
π‘Price Point
π‘Performance
π‘Second Amendment
Highlights
Discussion on the variety of LPVOs available in the market, ranging from cheap to expensive options.
Considerations when choosing an LPVO, such as magnification, range, weight, and price.
Comparison between high-end LPVOs and more affordable options in terms of features and performance.
Explanation of the challenges with a 1-10 power LPVO and how Gideon Optics addressed them.
Discussion on the importance of glass quality in LPVOs and how it affects light transmission and performance.
Comparison of Japanese and Chinese made optics and their impact on price and performance.
Importance of light gathering capability in LPVOs, especially for hunting applications.
Discussion on the cost-benefit analysis of investing in high-end optics versus more affordable options.
Explanation of the differences between first and second focal plane reticles and their impact on shooting accuracy.
Discussion on the challenges and solutions related to reticle illumination in LPVOs.
Comparison of the eyebox in different magnification scopes and its impact on the user experience.
Discussion on the potential future developments in optic materials and weight reduction.
Explanation of the impact of quality control and manufacturing processes on the price and performance of LPVOs.
Discussion on the importance of repeatability in LPVO adjustments and its correlation to price.
Reflection on the progress made in the field of optics and how modern, affordable equipment surpasses historical military standards.
Emphasis on the importance of the Second Amendment for all citizens, regardless of their economic status.
Transcripts
hey guys thanks for tuning in to another
video on forgotten weapons.com I'm Ian
McCollum I'm here at Shot Show 2024
today joined once again by Mr Mike
Branson of Gideon Optics uh Mike is a
huge Optics nerd with experience in a
couple of different uh companies you
were with uh primary arms for a while
you were with swamp Hawks for a while
and now you're doing your own new
startup here yeah with Gideon Optics
yeah we've been in here we did Pistol
dots last year and then uh this year
we're expanding and I've got a new pvo
here so let's talk about lpos okay so
there's a lot of lpos out there yes
there are and some of them are really
cheap and now there's one
more and some of them are really
expensive yes and I look at this and I'm
like okay I can look at magnification
range and the
weight and those are like the only
quantifi I can think of so do I spend a
lot of money on a high-end one am I
going to get features like what features
can I get improved by throwing money at
lpvo right
versus what you know there's a whole
bunch of lenses in there and there's
going to be some stuff that's just
dictated by physics right where a 10,000
well not 10 $2,000 sometimes 10 now okay
it's yeah ask ask Sig with the new nsgw
optic oh there it is I mean it's got a
laser piggyback thingy on top of it but
there that's that's 11 Grand to pop
thanks Uncle Sam so what is what is
there that you know Gideon can do just
as well as s
versus versus not yeah exactly yeah so
uh right
so that's yeah it's a it's a simple
question with a again a complicated
answer right and this is the part where
uh the internet guys expect me to pound
my chest and go just as good just as
good right but let's have a real
conversation about it let's you know I
want to contribute to forgotten
weapons the best I can let's talk about
what things what things are really like
and that and
so the first thing is you cannot defeat
math right math is math and so this is a
1 to 10 with a 34mm tube and a 28 millim
objective lens so it's a little bit big
it's a little bit heavy compared to a
30mm tube optic with a 24 millimeter
lens so why did I do the big heavy one
what's the problem with one to 10 they
get tied at 10 power I turn this thing
from one to 10 and I can't see through
it and I'm fighting it and it's a pain
in the butt to look through if I make my
tube a little bit Bigg ger I make my
internal lenses a little bit bigger I
make my objective lens a little bit
bigger and I'm smart with my Optical
design it's a little bit easier to see
through this one at 10 power than some
of the other lpv on the market and
that's something that I can accomplish
at our price level which this is about a
$400
lpvo um and it's got great glass it's a
true onx download does all the things
that I expect from an lpvo at that price
point and it's plenty tough uh you know
the aluminum is is the aluminum it's you
know it's got Quality Parts in it it's
going to do uh the toughness things that
we expect so why is it 400 bucks when a
when a a primary Arms 1 to eight
Platinum is 1,500 bucks and why is that
scope 1,500 bucks when a night Force
attacker is $1,000 more than that let's
talk about it excellent question yeah
there we go so now I've cirle around to
your question so uh the the primary arms
optic is a Japanese made optic this is a
Chinese made optic so the Japanese
Optics do have better glass they are
crisper uh they got a little bit more
light transmission um which doesn't
matter until it does if I'm shooting in
broad daylight uh I'm shooting a match
and uh you know even if it's cloudy
overhead I'm getting like 98% light
transmission through this optic I'm fine
it doesn't matter if I am on a hunt and
I'm running an lpv o on like an elk hunt
up north and I've spent a bunch of money
for that tag and a bunch of money for
the Outfitter and I've taken my two
weeks of vacation for the year to try to
bag an elk and the elk trots out there
and the sun has gone down and I don't
have night vision on this thing then I
need as much light Gathering as I can
possibly get and I'm going to want as
close to 100% light Gathering as I can
get if I spent that much money on that
elk hunt and I'm 15 grand into that elk
hunt to begin with go ahead and buy that
primary arms with a Japanese glass and
you'll get a little bit of a benefit you
might be able to see that out take that
shot get your trophy whatever right so
it's it's one of those things where it
doesn't matter until it does right so
the customer needs to decide how much
performance am I willing to pay for in a
realm of diminishing returns because I
can go way past even $3,000 and there's
valid reasons why a March scope will
cost that much for the guys that are
doing March scope stuff you know um they
demand that performance level it matters
to them for what they're doing you stick
me behind the rifle I see I can't really
be that much of a scope's knob you put
me behind a night Force attacker and I'm
like wow that's a really nice scope with
great glass but the light comes in
through the front it bounces around in
here and gets flipped and does all that
stuff it comes out the back here what's
the last thing the light hits before it
hits my eye by $200 set of glasses that
are all scratched to hell and I've
they're not even look I've got like a
rubber piece on this side and not on the
other side it goes through this before
it hits my eye so can I even perceive
the difference between an attacker and a
Vortex J not really not with these
eyeballs not with the stuff that I'm
doing but someone can and it's worth
extra money to them so I had that same
experience hunting where a scope that I
thought in fact in this case it was this
whole Scout scope concept oh gosh and on
the Range it was fine it worked and then
I discovered actually hunting the
percentage of times when the sun is is
very low and it's either coming pretty
close to in this way or pretty close to
in this way and now there's problems
with the whole Scout scope concept but
that never happened you know I didn't go
zero the rifle at 6:30 in the morning
right so if I'm going to take this to a
two gun match that's going to be in the
day in Arizona yeah do a desert
brutality with it or something right
could probably put Vaseline on the front
of the lens and still do fairly well
I'll get plenty of light through it yeah
but that's different than the hunting
application so so there there are
differences are you willing to pay for
them you know another difference is
retical illumination so this is a second
focal plane uh lpvo so second focal
plane is the one where um no matter how
I zoom in or out relative to the field
of view inside my scope the reticle is
always the same size so that means that
my bullet drop that goes out to 600
yards on this is only going to be valid
at 10 power right if I have it sets at
six and I try to take a 400 yard shot
with my reticle I'm it's a Miss every
time right right so then there's first
focal plane reticles we're going to have
one of those I worked on it for two
months I was obsessed with it and we'll
have a 1 to eight in second focal plane
like this and a 1 to eight in first
focal plane and the problem with the
first focal plane lpv is that when you
go to one power the middle of that
reticle disappears right it's just gone
down to just a big SI ah right so then
what you do is you crank your
illumination all the way up to 11 and
you use it like a Red Dot right if you
have the night Force attacker the the
Razer gen 3 the primary arms that I
mentioned doesn't have that refractive
reticle illumination that's why they're
at a $1600 price point those retical by
themselves are stupid expensive okay
they are incredibly expensive to get
that diffractive illumination that
nuclear bride illumination and I don't
have that so I have to crutch it in some
other way um I have to design my reticle
very care carefully so it can be seen at
one power without the sort of benefit of
uh the $2,500 price level amazing
nuclear Brite
illumination do you need the nuclear
Brite illumination because you've got a
first focal plane scope and it's your
goto um you know do or die then yeah
it's a really good idea to have that
right not not totally frivolous right
it's not frivolous but I've had good
used 4x4 trucks that cost me less than a
night Force attacker right there's
there's there's a an opportunity cost to
all of this right you know and bluntly
uh a mutual friend of ours uh does have
an attacker and on a very nice lwrc gun
and he saved up money for like five
years to build his ultimate AR and then
he took it out and he's with match great
ammo he's hitting like four M MOA and
he's like what's wrong with it is it my
Mount you know I'm like no you got a
$250 mount on there it's not your Mount
Well's is it my ammo no it's not your
ammo
it's that you saved up money for 5 years
and got no repetitions on rifle and you
don't know how to shoot you could have
bought a $400 lpvo and built a skill set
and gone and shot matches and you'd have
four years of experience on how to pull
a trigger and you'd be that'd be a sub
rifle in the right hands but now you're
not the right hands because you spent
five years not shooting and saving up
money so you could be better and then he
kind of went oh crap yeah so what you
need to do is start going to matches and
get your butt kicked by guys with $400
lpos for a couple of years and then
you'll be worthy of the money that you
spent I've had some places where people
ask me for a recommendation and I will
recommend just the totally standard
basic like I'm looking for a good pistol
like you know what get a Glock find a
used Glock and it's not worth buying
something better until you can
articulate specifically what the better
thing will do that you need it to do yes
and I can very much see that being
appropriate foros if you're buying it
because you're favorite YouTube guy said
this is the one the Navy Seals used it's
your money but I know I I'm his money
yeah from being in that position I it
probably was not his money to paid for
it right exactly so yeah if you don't if
you don't know why this is worth more
money then do more research talk to
people that shoot you know all right so
ibox is a tricky thing the higher in
magnification you get the tighter that
eyebox gets that's right there's no way
that is physics like I could get a $200
scope off AliExpress and it's going to
have the same eyebox if the tube and the
magnification are the same physical size
it's really close there's a few little
tricks that you can pull with your
Optical design to try to maximize it but
basically you know the basic formula
which I think is uh you know opt uh
ocular lens diameter divided by
magnification that basic formula is math
you can't you can't defeat math and you
can go look at the different websites
look at the different manufacturers and
look at their spec sheets go on Optics
Planet and look at they've got specs for
all their Scopes what is the exit pupil
there's a shaft of light that comes out
the back of this optic what's the
diameter of that shaft of light I have
to line up my eyeball with that shaft of
light to look through it all of these 1
to 10 are 2.3 2.5 2.6 millimeters I'm
lining up a 2.6 millimeter shaft of
light with a 4mm puple in my eye yeah
that's going to be kind of slow and
picky you know at that magnification
right and that's why you see on
Precision rifles where they've got like
a five to 25 on there now we got a 25
magnification optic that's why Precision
rifles always have those cool adjustable
stocks where that there's a cheek and
you can you can tilt it just right and
you can extend it and it's got little
wheels everywhere that's so you can put
your face in the same time on the rifle
every time it's on the stock the exact
same way so your eye lines up with that
tiny little exit pupil the same way
every time and that's why Precision
rifles have those crazy expensive
adjustable socks okay the bigger your
magnification gets the worse it is to
look through the scope and there's no
there's no escaping that you cannot
negotiate with math math will win now
what about weight because there's
definitely I'm sure there's some way you
can save money on weight for
um so save weight with money save weight
with money uh yes and no
again so so you ever taken all the guts
out of a Glock frame and you're just
holding the plastic frame and you're
like oh this is nothing it's like it's
like paper in your hands it's so thin
that thin polymer a scope body without
the glass is like that okay if you have
this aluminum body and I don't have any
of the guts in it it's astonishingly
light it's amazingly light I filled it
up with big thick heavy chunks of glass
in the future someday I predict we'll
have fully multi-coated glass front
fully multi-coated glass rear and the
inside will be polymer
lenses one day because it doesn't matter
if they get they can't get scratched up
in here right not if the abrasion
doesn't matter because they're internal
right that will save us weight one day
but they can't do it yet because you
lose too much light transmission you get
distortions you get chromatic aberration
all the stuff that you don't want so
they're working on it but we're not
there yet that will save weight across
the board right now now all these lpv 1
to 6 1 to8 1 to 10 they're all pretty
much the same size and weight with one
exception and I have to give props to a
former employer of mine primary arms um
primary arms has a 1 to8 Platinum ja
Japanese made optic and they had a long
gestation period with that optic and
they basically challenged their Japanese
manufacturer and said we want to do lpvo
stuff can we make it smaller and lighter
and they they for years they've been
working on this and that optic just won
its first contract with the Department
of energy so the doe so the doe is
rocking primary arms now and it is
significantly smaller and lighter and as
far as I'm concerned it's witchcraft I
have no idea how they managed to
accomplish that but that what they did
was somehow somebody had a breakthrough
in Optical design Optical engineering
one of the real Engineers that has a
degree in the math figured out a way to
cut out a lens or to make a lens thinner
or to make a laminate lens where you
have it's one lens but it's really three
shapes inside it so it does the light
bending of multiple lenses I don't know
how um I should like buy one and take a
saw all to it and cut it in half and see
right but but that shows that it's
possible right so primary arms the first
one they got this one dat that's super
light and and and and it's shorter and
everything and apparently they didn't
give up anything it doesn't have bad
Optical qualities it doesn't have a
narrow depth of field it's a home run um
[Music]
these down the road the illumination
conks out guys have to call Bob at
customer service hey my illumination
won't work and then it's an RMA and they
get another optic from us right how do
we prevent that well we could do one
that's not illuminated at all and
there's less to go wrong okay right so
there's a there's cost and complexity
and those things but I don't think
weight is really that much of a factor
when it comes to illumination stuff it
really is the glass that's it's the
glass is so heavy um yeah it's such a
high percentage of the Optics weight so