HEATED Israel Debate: Destiny Vs. Omar Baddar

you're saying that Israel needs to allow

Hamas to stay there who's been breaking

international law of arm conf for 20

years as opposed to Hamas allowing the

Israeli government to stay there when

they breaking international law for even

longer than that it's not peace nobody

wants peace people want Justice oops

it's just War Gaza is unlivable anymore

too bad it can't support Palestinian

life people are starving it's just all

an accident it's crazy that the numbers

are so poor for a country that could

kill so many more people they're doing

things that no other countries there's a

Reason by the way which you will never

recognize why all of the surrounding

Arab states have abandoned the pales too

because their history has been one of

violence that first they've been

encouraged by the surrounding Nations

and used by them and then now they've

been abandoned once the other nations

that's a racist anti

Palestinian happy Friday everyone or

Thursday night if you're a premium

subscriber breakingpoints decom if you

want to get the show early to your inbox

I'm Emily jashinski and you probably

recognize uh the man sitting next to me

we are about to tee up a fascinating

debate I'm joined of course also by my

co-host my wonderful co-host Ryan grim

and these gentlemen that you see here

are not debating for the first time they

debated in the past maybe some of you

have watched that they sparred over the

question of Israel actually earlier this

year and then kind of subsequently

continued a bit of a back and forth so

we know that we're not going to settle

the debate once and for all here today

uh but I think what we want to do Ryan

is really push for more moral Clarity

push for more contrast as we reflect on

just this last week of absolutely

historic protests rocking uh dozens of

campuses across the the country so we

have two popular proponents of the

respective sides here and we're excited

to get into it yeah and to introduce

them both we've got uh to my right here

Omar badar he's a Palestinian American

uh political analyst who's been uh

following the situation in the Middle

East for many many years uh on the other

side uh we have Stephen benell Jr who's

better known by his streaming name Mr

barelli or whatever the or by like a

dozen different names from if you if you

guys watch the uh Norman finlin debate

um that kind of uh thrust Destiny as a

streaming name into this uh conversation

s we want to start with the campus

protest before getting uh to the war

itself this week saw a militarized uh

response over at VCU UT Austin uh

Colombia and the kind and a a vigilante

response at at

UCLA uh so just curious for your your

read in general enal on these protests

as they've unfolded and have you seen

any double standard when it comes to

kind of the the Free Speech Warriors

that we've seen uh championing the cause

of free expression on college campuses

now championing the cause of shooting

fireworks into peaceful encampments yeah

it's it's the double standard is

incredibly glaring I mean it you would

have to put on blinders to actually miss

it you have I think the these student

protesters are the conscience of this

country we are witnessing an absolutely

horrific situation unfolding on the

ground and American policy is to insist

on continuing to send endless weapons

unconditionally to a military force that

is mass slaughtering children by the

tens of thousands and these students are

saying we're taking a stand this is not

okay if we can't impact the policy

makers directly we're going to make sure

that our institutions and the money that

we're paying to these institutions is

not playing into this kind of Mass

Slaughter and what we witnessed like

from my perspective in a better world

cops would be going after the people who

are violating American law to make sure

that weapons can continue slaughtering

children rather than going after people

who are peacefully protesting

overwhelmingly peacefully protesting in

order to change that policy change

American Investment in it and you're

absolutely right you have a level of

demonization of these protesters um

constantly talking about them as if you

know it's just like anti-semitic mobs or

or whatever the people leading these

protests there's very significant

portion of progressive young Jewish

people who are the leaders of of in in

many cases of some of these protests

groups from if not now and Jewish voice

for peace and and many others and they

are on the receiving end of tremendous

hate and violence and nobody talks about

that and as you mentioned what we're

witnessing in UCLA is absolutely

horrifying these protesters being

attacked by you know bear spray and

fireworks and some of them being beaten

up and you see like some serious

injuries but because the climate in this

country is one in which one side gets

demonized that empowers and emboldens

the response not just from police but

also from Vigilantes and I just want to

Note One Last Thing um just because

Stephen is here and I think it's really

relevant is there's a person that I know

uh named Simone Zimmerman and who she's

in town today for an intercept event

that's right and she's one of the most

conscientious and decent human beings

that you'll ever meet and she knows

personal people um in her life who have

lost loved ones on October 7th from the

attack um that Hamas carried out and she

was horrified by that by that attack and

she's equally horrified by Israel's

response and the Mass Slaughter and

she's one of those people who is

fighting for a better future for

Palestinians and Israelis and she was at

uh at Passover Cedar at Colombia joining

the protesters and talking about how

beautiful it is that she's in that setup

and Stephen quote tweeted that tweet and

said that he would like to donate

thousands of gallons of kosine

presumably so these people can set

themselves on fire and it's just such an

ugly and distasteful thing to say and

I'm genuinely curious of what you're

thinking when you tweet things like that

everybody celebrated Bushell doing his

prot people want to protest that way

then God help them I guess yeah this is

not about Bush though but let's keep

going in response to that because Omar

set up an interesting position here

between anti-semitic mobs and peaceful

protesters so are what is what we're

seeing on these campuses anti-semitic

mobs or is it peaceful protesters from

your perspective Stephen uh from my

perspective I mean it really depends on

which series of videos that you watch I

think from an American perspective it

really shouldn't matter if they're

anti-semitic mobs or if they're

protesting foreign policy or whatever in

the United States we don't have hate

speech laws you should be allowed to say

really whatever you want want in protest

uh assuming you're not violating any uh

social or whatever the ordinances are I

know like for some college campuses

you're not allowed to block Pathways or

you can't uh protest if they've got

events planned for graduations or

whatever uh and as long as you're not

disrupting the piece in a way where

you're like you can't blur loudspeakers

I think on college campuses as long as

you're folling the laws you'll be able

to protest however you want but if you

are say what we saw from NYPD and LAPD

actually last night if you're violating

laws University rules even with an

encampment if you broke into the Hall

like they did and have been barric up in

there what did you make of the NYPD

respons just at colia for example the I

like to wait till the dust settles on

this because I hear so many different

things about how students were all being

pro uh peaceful I've seen obviously the

videos of like some of the stuff being

broken into um I I think that when it

comes to an analysis of how to respond

to these particular events I think that

the the the start and stop needs to be

what are the rules and regulations in

place because a lot of people will jump

in and start arguing well it's a public

area so they can be wherever they want

or do whatever they want without even

understanding the rules or regulations

in place um I think as a blanket rule I

don't know why this particular situation

would need any kind of unique analysis

uh it would be the same as all protest

if you're in a private college uh I

understanding as they can remove you

whenever they want it's private property

if you're in a state funded or public

university then there are certain areas

that are supposed to remain open to the

public and they can't remove you unless

you are uh not there in an ordinary

manner if you're disrupting some of

their event um I don't see anything

about these particular set of protests

that would call for any type of unique

analysis that escapes like that

fundamental rule to protest in the

United States uh yeah and your

fundamental rule then to quote tweet

with the Cy uh I thought it was insane

that you had delusional people

especially young children in the United

States that don't know the any part of

this conflict whatsoever which is

probably the vast majority of the people

protesting it um that people are

celebrating people setting themselves on

fire that is just unbelievable to me you

saw a guy do it in front of a I think um

one of the New York City cour houses for

the Trump stuff you saw uh the Aaron

Bushnell guy do it for who knows what

reason um I guess because you thought

the whole world wasn't already paying

attention to this issue and yeah the

idea of people ever celebrating

themselves in a democratic first world

country setting themselves on fire for

an issue that already has an unlimited

amount of international attention it's

unbelievably stupid to me yeah but how

does it relate to this particular

instance I mean this is a bunch of

Jewish students celebrating with Pro

Palestinian students over Passover and

talking about a climate in which they're

coming together like why did you decide

to drag the the Bushnell thing into this

that's that's one I think it's funny

when people disingenuously load phrases

like oh all the Jewish people are

protesting with these people there are

so many Jewish people that's not true um

the last few research thing I saw I

think for 2023 shows like 90% of people

who are Jewish support the existence of

Israel so the idea that there's this

huge group of

Israel this is not about the existence

of Israel there's no question about the

fact that so many of these protest

leaders are in fact Jewish these groups

they're not imaginary they're not a

figment of your imagination you can

actually go see them and and look at how

large their Gatherings are how l l

voices have been the people who are

getting arrested in Congress so many of

them are progressive Jewish

organizations that are leading this

effort this is not about some broader

what are the the views of of American

Jews about the existence of Israel we're

just protest about the protest are about

ending the slaughter of the children of

Gaza that's what the protests are about

what do you mean what does it look like

what is the what is the end condition of

the the it's not just ending the

slaughter it's also stopping the

blockade it's also reaching a just

resolution to the Palestinian conflict

it's also probably the unlimited right

of Return of six million refugees it's

probably the dissolution of Israel as a

Jewish majority State it's probably the

create like I mean what all does that

entail you're conflating a ton of

different things a lot of these

protesters have varying views about this

some of them support a two-state

solution some of them support a one-

state solution but what's bringing

everybody together in this moment is a

realization that what Israel is doing to

Gaza is absolutely unconscionable that

you slaughter people at that scale that

Israel is clearly waging a war on the

civilian population of Gaza that's what

these people are upset about and they

want it to come to an end and the

specific thing that they're protesting

and maybe we'll we could actually find

something to agree on here because I've

seen you you describe yourself as kind

of a a moderate who like tries to you

know balance the the extremists on on

each side here so the specific thing the

protesters are arguing for at all of

these different campuses is uh opening

up the books of their basically the

hedge funds that run their universities

and divesting uh from firms that are

either linked to the war in Gaza or

linked to Israel uh more generally Brown

University uh reach an agreement with

its protesters that they would uh they

would abandon their encampment in

exchange for a vote in October to di to

divest from that that gets to the

question of resistance and the right the

right to resistance and so for years it

has been in the kind of policy of the

right here and a lot of the center here

in the United States to make it illegal

to try to ban people from participating

in boycotts or divestment efforts or

lobbying for sanctions uh against Israel

at the same time uh you say well armed

resistance is clearly you know off off

the table so if you if you rule out both

uh you you only leave people with one

option so even if you don't support

boycotting or divesting from Israel do

you support you know the right of people

here in the United States to like

to explicit um for how states have

banned some of the BDS participation as

a fundamental right to boycott I think

in the United States you should always

have the right to boycott everything

except for our currency I think um yeah

you have the right to boycot uh whatever

you want um I don't know why that should

ever be made illegal but I I know that

there are particular things BDS stuff

that I think States look at but um yeah

of course you should always have the

right I wish that the people that would

talk about conditioning uh support for

Israel though would also talk about

conditioning support for Palestine

because they are some of the highest

recipients of Aid in the world per

capita the United States contributes a

lot of that Aid it's interesting to me

that seems like we're always talking

about how we need to condition Aid to

Israel congratulations Congress Congress

just banned all funding of unra so yeah

have seen that well so actually because

Stephen raised an interesting point that

what's the kind of end goal of the

protesters after BD BDS in the service

of what you know what does that look

like a one state solution Cho the

minority well so you said earlier that

you know it's it sort of depends on

whatever video you're looking at that

this is an anti-semitic mob or peaceful

protesters and I think that's actually

true there's videos showing all kinds of

different things which is part of the

issue of piecing together these stories

via social media uh so if that if the

one state solution is kind of the

ultimate goal of the people that are

protesting for BDS um what is your like

do you think they're fundamentally

anti-semitic do you think they're

fundamentally are they from your

perspective just mistaken uh misguided

or are they

bigoted um I I don't care try trying to

sort out like the difference between

like anti-Semitism and anti-zionism is

almost impossible and in practice the

two look almost identical sometimes so

the obsession of trying to figure out

like what is the driving thing here

between anti-Semitism versus anti

Zionism I think in some cases it's good

um to to find differences so some people

are discriminatory against poor people

some people are discriminatory against

uh certain races of people and figuring

out the difference here is really

important

when it comes to anti-Semitism versus

anti Zionism in regards to Israel I

think that the talking points of

somebody who's an anti-zionist are

indistinguishable from the talking

points of somebody who is anti-Semitic

so I there are a lot of Israelis who

don't support the Netanyahu policy

that's not but that's not uh anti-

Zionism such that they want a one-state

solution even Palestinians don't want a

one state solution om resp it's it's

it's utterly grotesque to conflate those

two things opposition to Zionism is

opposition to the state of Israel the

way it it came into being at the expense

of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians

who were driven out of their homes and

there's a different Vision that instead

of having a Jewish state that privileges

one particular group of people over

another that you have a vision for a

state in which everybody is equal

Americans would be familiar with what

that Vision actually looks like you

remember the era of Jim Crow and what

that meant and people who are demanding

a different kind of country in which

everybody is equal that's not the same

as being anti-white it's absurd to even

put these remotely in the same category

and can I just just if I can finish just

on on the point of BDS BDS also by the

way has been clear about the fact that

they don't take any particular political

solution uh it does certainly happen

that a lot of BDS activists do support a

one-state solution but that is not the

position of of BDS itself as a movement

that is calling for boycotts and

isolation and just on the Free Speech

angle you have States all over the

country that are passing laws that

basically make it punishable to boycott

not just Israel but Israeli settlements

that are built in the occupied

territories and those settlements are

war crimes under international law and

so you have a situation in which this

country part of its founding is that we

celebrate boycotts of you know as as

part of deep entrenched part of American

culture the boycott of British treat

during the the founding of the country

the Montgomery Bus Boycott during the

Civil Rights Movement and now you're

saying that boycotting the war crimes of

a foreign country is somehow punishable

people being denied the ability to work

with State uh governments or or schools

or or or medical facilities or anything

that is affiliated with the state those

are transparently unconstitutional laws

they have been challenged by

organizations like the ACLU they have

been defeated in court in many cases but

unfortunately they keep popping up

faster than the rate at which you can

challenge them and that's a serious

crisis anybody who's serious about being

committed to free speech and saying that

Americans should be able to exercise the

right to boycott uh including when it

comes to Israel or Israel's atrocities

um that's an absolutely critical issue

that we're not we're not talking enough

about that you have the power of the

state being used to silence people's

right to to free speech and I think

that's a really important angle I want

to move to the conduct of the War uh by

Israel pretty soon but I on the one

State versus two State question isn't it

the case that the current Israeli

government position is one state like

there's a complete rejection across the

board River To The Sea of a Palestinian

State River to the Sea so yeah I would

say the I think the lud platform is

essentially always said as much yeah so

okay so you so more agreement like

you're you you you oppose that you think

that

well I oppose it he's in favor of the

one state where the Jews live as a

minority in that state yeah no just to

be clear the Netanyahu government and

the lud are in favor of a one state in

which Jews are privileged over

Palestinians with Palestinians occupying

M multi- tiers if you're a citizen of

Israel you have a certain amount of

Rights if you're in the West Bank you

get this many rights and if you're in

Gaza you're completely under siege and

and there's nothing that you can do

which is country you've described every

country my vision of one us have more

rights than noncitizens yeah well in

those countries you don't permanently

occupy those people and prevent them

from having any rights and deny them

citizenship as well and that's the

fundamental problem is that Israel's

vision is Palestinians can never be free

they can't get their own State and they

can't live as equals within Israel so

your status is just to be permanently

occupied and helpless without rights and

that's a vision that I think is

absolutely nobody who has a conscience

can actually support and my vision of a

one state would be one in which

everybody actually has equal rights and

everybody can live equally precisely the

way that we live in the United States

which is a really fun position to take

in the west when we have like no stake

in the game I think it's fun to scream

that at protest I think it's fun to go

on Twitter and do that um I think at the

end of the day that type of rhetoric is

ultimately destructive to Palestinians

because everybody knows that that's

never happening it's a pipe dream uh

less than 30% of Palestinians are in

favor of a singular state where Jews and

uh Arabs have the exact same rights

literally nobody wants that people in

Israel don't want that it's literally

you're just virtue signaling and paying

lip service to an idea that is grossly

unpopular across the entirety of Israel

and Palestine not only that um the idea

that you would have a singular State

created where 6 million Palestinian

refugees are then brought back into the

state there's no shot that any Jewish

person living there who has lived

through the second inada who has lived

through Hamas attacks who's lived

through Hezbollah attacks who's lived

through International support for houthi

attacks is going to feel safe in such a

state and they know that there would be

absolutely no international support for

them if that state were created and Jews

would have start getting slaughtered and

massed there let's toss it to Omar with

that for response and also I'll sort of

add to that maybe narrow it down a

little bit what is then let's let's say

you know hypothetically would take the

best faith argument not from Netanyahu

but let's say an Israeli citizen who's

both concerned about their safety and

concerned about Netanyahu leadership

what does the path towards peace uh from

the perspective of an Israeli what does

it look like when they see the the level

of support for Hamas and we can

obviously get into why so many people in

Palestine feel like they need to support

Hamas yeah no in a way you're putting

your finger on on the problem precisely

I mean Israel is upset that there's so

much hostility towards them but the

reason there's so much hostility is

because of the way that they have bet

treated Palestinians for decade after

decade just the level of brutality that

Palestinians have experienced under

occupation has been absolutely horrific

and you know when you talk about the the

prospects for peace there was a time in

which Palestinians recognized that they

there's a significant power differential

that they can't actually get Freedom

From The River To The Sea in their own

Homeland and there was an an an

Indulgence of the idea that maybe we can

have a two-state compromise in which

Palestinians would only get the West

Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem which is

about oneth of the entire territory of

their historic Homeland and Israel gets

to keep the other four fifths that from

Palestinian perspec Ive is a massive

Palestinian compromise bending over

backwards to facilitate some kind of two

states and all what Israel was required