HEATED Israel Debate: Destiny Vs. Omar Baddar

Breaking Points
3 May 2024120:34

Summary

TLDRThe provided transcript captures a tense and insightful debate on the Israel-Palestine conflict, focusing on the roles of Hamas and the Israeli government, the impact of international law, and the broader implications for peace and justice in the region. The discussion delves into the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the history of violence and occupation, and the international community's response, including the controversial issue of the Israeli blockade. It highlights the differing perspectives on the conflict, with one side arguing for the necessity of ending the occupation and the other emphasizing the threat posed by Hamas. The conversation also touches on the influence of the United States, the role of the Arab states, and the potential pathways to a resolution that respects the rights and aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians.

Takeaways

  • ๐Ÿ“œ The debate centers around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, focusing on the role of Hamas, international law, and the concept of peace versus justice in the region.
  • ๐Ÿญ The situation in Gaza is described as unlivable, with allegations of Israel's blockade contributing to a humanitarian crisis, including starvation and poor living conditions.
  • ๐Ÿค The discussion touches on the history of violence and the role of surrounding Arab states in the conflict, including their abandonment of the Palestinian cause.
  • ๐Ÿ”ซ There's a mention of the militarized response to campus protests in the United States, with a debate on whether these protesters are advocating for peace or demonstrating anti-Semitic sentiments.
  • ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡ฑ The Israeli government's policy is criticized for its treatment of Palestinians, with claims of it breaking international law and committing atrocities.
  • ๐Ÿšซ The concept of a double standard is raised, particularly regarding free speech and the reaction to protests, with some arguing that pro-Palestinian protests are unfairly demonized.
  • ๐Ÿ›ก๏ธ Stephen argues for the necessity of removing Hamas from power, stating that it's essential for any peace process, while Omar emphasizes the need for a just resolution and the right to resistance.
  • ๐Ÿ•Š๏ธ The idea that Palestinians want justice, not just peace, is highlighted, with a discussion on the various interpretations of a peaceful resolution, including one-state and two-state solutions.
  • ๐Ÿ›๏ธ The role of the United States and international community is examined, with calls for greater moral clarity and action to address the perceived imbalance of power and human rights abuses.
  • ๐Ÿ“‰ There's a discussion on the impact of the conflict on the global stage, including the potential for Israel to face international isolation and legal repercussions, such as charges before the International Criminal Court (ICC).
  • ๐Ÿšจ The importance of acknowledging the complexity of the conflict and the need for a multifaceted solution that addresses the concerns of both Israelis and Palestinians is emphasized.

Q & A

  • What is the main issue being discussed in the transcript?

    -The main issue discussed is the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine, with a focus on the role of Hamas, international law, and the debate over peace versus justice in the region.

  • What does the term 'international law of arm conf' refer to?

    -The term likely refers to the 'international law of armed conflict,' which governs the conduct of armed forces during warfare.

  • What is the position of the speaker who argues that 'people want justice'?

    -The speaker suggests that the conflict is not just about achieving peace but also about addressing the underlying issues of injustice, which they believe are causing the ongoing conflict.

  • Why does the speaker mention Gaza as 'unlivable'?

    -The speaker refers to Gaza as 'unlivable' due to the harsh living conditions, which they attribute to the Israeli government's policies and the blockade imposed on the region.

  • What does the speaker mean by 'the numbers are so poor'?

    -This likely refers to the speaker's view that despite the severity of the conflict, the international response or the number of people affected does not reflect the actual scale of the crisis.

  • What is the debate about the role of the United States in the conflict?

    -The debate involves the extent of U.S. support for Israel, with one side arguing that the U.S. provides unconditional support, which influences Israel's policies towards Palestine.

  • What is the significance of the 'right of return' mentioned in the transcript?

    -The 'right of return' is a principle that would allow Palestinian refugees and their descendants to return to the homes and lands from which they or their ancestors were displaced.

  • What does the term 'BDS' stand for and what is its relevance in the discussion?

    -BDS stands for 'Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions,' a movement promoting various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law.

  • What is the argument regarding the 'demonization' of protesters?

    -The argument is that there is a double standard where protesters against Israeli policies are often portrayed negatively, while those who support Israeli actions are not given the same scrutiny.

  • Why does the speaker mention the 'great March of return'?

    -The 'great March of return' is a series of protests in Gaza where Palestinians demanded their right to return to the lands from which they were displaced. The speaker refers to it to highlight the non-violent nature of the protests and the response from the Israeli military.

  • What is the controversy over the Israeli military's use of 'human shields'?

    -The controversy stems from allegations that the Israeli military has used Palestinian civilians as human shields during military operations, which is considered a violation of international humanitarian law.

Outlines

00:00

๐Ÿ˜€ Introduction to the Debate on Israel-Palestine Conflict

The video script opens with a discussion on the Israeli-Palestine conflict, highlighting the longstanding nature of the issues and the complexity of finding peace. The speaker criticizes the double standards in how the conflict is handled and the portrayal of Palestinians. The introduction also sets the stage for a debate between two individuals with contrasting views on the situation, Omar Badar and Stephen Benell Jr., and mentions the recent protests and responses on various campuses.

05:00

๐Ÿ‘‰ Discussion on Campus Protests and Free Speech

The conversation shifts to the topic of campus protests, with a focus on the militarized and vigilante responses to these demonstrations. The speakers debate the validity of these reactions, the concept of free speech, and the alleged double standards when it comes to supporting peaceful protests versus condemning violent ones. The discussion also touches on the portrayal of protesters and the impact of the Israeli-Palestine conflict on American policy and campus dynamics.

10:01

๐Ÿค” Analyzing the Right to Resistance and BDS Movement

The discussion delves into the right to resistance and the role of the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement. It explores the legality and morality of boycotting Israel, the various political solutions proposed by protesters, and the end goals of the BDS movement. There is a debate on whether the BDS movement is inherently anti-Semitic or a legitimate form of protest against Israeli policies.

15:03

๐Ÿ›๏ธ The One State Versus Two State Debate

The speakers engage in a debate about the feasibility and implications of a one-state solution versus a two-state solution. They discuss the current Israeli government's stance, the historical context of the conflict, and the challenges of achieving a peaceful resolution. The conversation also addresses the international community's role and the potential consequences of continued occupation and conflict.

20:04

๐Ÿšจ Addressing the Conduct of War and Atrocities

The focus of the discussion turns to the conduct of war by Israel, with references to specific incidents and the broader context of military operations. The speakers debate the legitimacy of Israel's actions, the concept of proportionality in military responses, and the impact of these actions on civilian populations. There is also a critique of the Israeli government's policies and the international response to the conflict.

25:05

๐Ÿ“‰ The Impact of the Conflict on Palestinian Lives

The conversation emphasizes the human cost of the conflict on Palestinians, discussing the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. The speakers address the issues of home demolitions, the reduction of Palestinian populations in certain areas, and the impact of the occupation on daily life. The discussion also touches on the international community's role in perpetuating the conflict through financial and political support.

30:07

๐Ÿข The Blockade and Its Humanitarian Consequences

The speakers debate the reasons behind the blockade on Gaza and its humanitarian consequences. They discuss the restrictions on goods, the impact on the civilian population, and the strategic motivations behind the blockade. The conversation also explores the conditions that would lead to the lifting of the blockade and the potential outcomes for the region.

35:07

๐Ÿ•Š๏ธ The Path to Peace and the Role of External Intervention

The discussion concludes with thoughts on the path to peace and the potential role of external intervention. The speakers consider the need for a change in Israeli policy, the impact of US military funding, and the conditions required for a just and lasting resolution to the conflict. They also reflect on the importance of recognizing the humanity of all involved and the potential for a future where Palestinians and Israelis can coexist peacefully.

40:08

๐Ÿ“ Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

In the final segment, the speakers summarize their positions and share their closing thoughts. They reiterate the complexity of the conflict, the importance of understanding different perspectives, and the need for a nuanced approach to finding a solution. The conversation ends with a call for continued dialogue and a commitment to seeking the truth amidst the challenges of the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

Mindmap

Keywords

๐Ÿ’กInternational Law

International law refers to a set of rules and norms that govern the relations between states and international organizations. In the video, it is mentioned in the context of accusations against both Israel and Hamas for violating these laws, particularly in relation to the conflict in Gaza.

๐Ÿ’กArmed Conflict

Armed conflict denotes a situation where there is a resort to armed force between states or non-state actors. The script discusses the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, highlighting the humanitarian issues and the violation of international law during armed conflict.

๐Ÿ’กHuman Shields

Human shields involve the use of civilians to protect military personnel or infrastructure from enemy attacks. The video script mentions allegations of this practice by both sides in the conflict, which is a war crime under international law.

๐Ÿ’กBlockade

A blockade is a military action that prevents ships or aircraft from entering or leaving a country's ports or airspace. The script discusses the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which has been criticized for its humanitarian impact on the civilian population.

๐Ÿ’กSettlements

Settlements refer to Israeli communities established in territories that have been occupied since the 1967 war. The script touches on the expansion of these settlements and their role in the ongoing conflict.

๐Ÿ’กHuman Rights Organizations

Human rights organizations are groups that work to promote and protect human rights at national and international levels. The video script cites these organizations' reports on the conflict, indicating their role in documenting potential human rights abuses.

๐Ÿ’กRight of Return

The right of return is a principle that allows refugees to return to their homes. In the context of the video, it refers to the demand by Palestinian refugees to return to lands from which they or their ancestors were displaced, which is a contentious issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

๐Ÿ’กTwo-State Solution

A two-state solution is a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that involves the establishment of two separate states for Israelis and Palestinians. The script discusses differing views on this solution and its feasibility.

๐Ÿ’กOccupation

Occupation, in the context of the video, refers to the control and administration of Palestinian territories by Israel since the 1967 war. The term is used to describe the situation that has led to various human rights concerns and international disputes.

๐Ÿ’กHamas

Hamas is a Palestinian political organization with a military wing. It is a key player in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is often at the center of discussions regarding violence, governance in Gaza, and peace negotiations.

๐Ÿ’กApartheid

Apartheid refers to a policy or system of segregation and discrimination based on race. In the video, it is used to describe the perceived nature of Israeli policies towards Palestinians, suggesting a comparison to the former South African regime's policies.

Highlights

Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, focusing on the role of Hamas, international law, and the concept of peace versus justice.

Discussion on the conditions in Gaza, described as 'unlivable,' and the humanitarian crisis due to alleged Israeli blockades.

Analysis of the impact of US policy on the conflict, including the provision of weapons and the stance on Israeli actions.

Critique of the double standards in how protesters and counter-protesters are treated on US college campuses.

Argument that the Israeli government's policies are contributing to the suffering and violence, rather than working towards peace.

Concerns about the demonization of protesters advocating for Palestinian rights, including progressive Jewish voices.

Reports of violence against protesters, including the use of bear spray, fireworks, and physical assaults.

Debate on the effectiveness of boycotts, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) as a non-violent resistance strategy against Israel.

Controversy over the use of AI in identifying and targeting Hamas members by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF).

Discussion on the historical context of the conflict, including the establishment of Israel and the displacement of Palestinians.

Arguments against the existence of a double standard when it comes to applying international law to Israel and Palestine.

Concerns about the Israeli government's approach to managing the conflict, including the treatment of Palestinian civilians.

Calls for international intervention to end the occupation and establish a just resolution for Palestinians.

Criticism of the United States' unconditional support for Israel and its impact on the peace process.

Discussion on the role of the media in shaping perceptions of the conflict and the need for balanced reporting.

Analysis of the impact of the conflict on regional stability and the potential for a peaceful resolution.

Debate on the feasibility of a two-state solution versus a one-state solution, and the challenges each presents.

Transcripts

00:00

you're saying that Israel needs to allow

00:01

Hamas to stay there who's been breaking

00:03

international law of arm conf for 20

00:05

years as opposed to Hamas allowing the

00:07

Israeli government to stay there when

00:08

they breaking international law for even

00:09

longer than that it's not peace nobody

00:11

wants peace people want Justice oops

00:13

it's just War Gaza is unlivable anymore

00:15

too bad it can't support Palestinian

00:17

life people are starving it's just all

00:18

an accident it's crazy that the numbers

00:20

are so poor for a country that could

00:22

kill so many more people they're doing

00:23

things that no other countries there's a

00:25

Reason by the way which you will never

00:27

recognize why all of the surrounding

00:28

Arab states have abandoned the pales too

00:30

because their history has been one of

00:31

violence that first they've been

00:32

encouraged by the surrounding Nations

00:34

and used by them and then now they've

00:35

been abandoned once the other nations

00:37

that's a racist anti

00:40

Palestinian happy Friday everyone or

00:42

Thursday night if you're a premium

00:44

subscriber breakingpoints decom if you

00:45

want to get the show early to your inbox

00:48

I'm Emily jashinski and you probably

00:50

recognize uh the man sitting next to me

00:52

we are about to tee up a fascinating

00:54

debate I'm joined of course also by my

00:56

co-host my wonderful co-host Ryan grim

00:59

and these gentlemen that you see here

01:01

are not debating for the first time they

01:03

debated in the past maybe some of you

01:05

have watched that they sparred over the

01:07

question of Israel actually earlier this

01:09

year and then kind of subsequently

01:10

continued a bit of a back and forth so

01:13

we know that we're not going to settle

01:14

the debate once and for all here today

01:16

uh but I think what we want to do Ryan

01:18

is really push for more moral Clarity

01:20

push for more contrast as we reflect on

01:23

just this last week of absolutely

01:24

historic protests rocking uh dozens of

01:28

campuses across the the country so we

01:31

have two popular proponents of the

01:32

respective sides here and we're excited

01:34

to get into it yeah and to introduce

01:36

them both we've got uh to my right here

01:38

Omar badar he's a Palestinian American

01:41

uh political analyst who's been uh

01:43

following the situation in the Middle

01:44

East for many many years uh on the other

01:47

side uh we have Stephen benell Jr who's

01:50

better known by his streaming name Mr

01:53

barelli or whatever the or by like a

01:56

dozen different names from if you if you

01:59

guys watch the uh Norman finlin debate

02:02

um that kind of uh thrust Destiny as a

02:05

streaming name into this uh conversation

02:07

s we want to start with the campus

02:09

protest before getting uh to the war

02:11

itself this week saw a militarized uh

02:14

response over at VCU UT Austin uh

02:19

Colombia and the kind and a a vigilante

02:23

response at at

02:24

UCLA uh so just curious for your your

02:29

read in general enal on these protests

02:31

as they've unfolded and have you seen

02:33

any double standard when it comes to

02:36

kind of the the Free Speech Warriors

02:38

that we've seen uh championing the cause

02:40

of free expression on college campuses

02:42

now championing the cause of shooting

02:44

fireworks into peaceful encampments yeah

02:46

it's it's the double standard is

02:48

incredibly glaring I mean it you would

02:49

have to put on blinders to actually miss

02:51

it you have I think the these student

02:54

protesters are the conscience of this

02:56

country we are witnessing an absolutely

02:58

horrific situation unfolding on the

02:59

ground and American policy is to insist

03:02

on continuing to send endless weapons

03:04

unconditionally to a military force that

03:06

is mass slaughtering children by the

03:08

tens of thousands and these students are

03:10

saying we're taking a stand this is not

03:11

okay if we can't impact the policy

03:13

makers directly we're going to make sure

03:16

that our institutions and the money that

03:17

we're paying to these institutions is

03:18

not playing into this kind of Mass

03:20

Slaughter and what we witnessed like

03:23

from my perspective in a better world

03:26

cops would be going after the people who

03:28

are violating American law to make sure

03:29

that weapons can continue slaughtering

03:31

children rather than going after people

03:33

who are peacefully protesting

03:34

overwhelmingly peacefully protesting in

03:36

order to change that policy change

03:38

American Investment in it and you're

03:39

absolutely right you have a level of

03:41

demonization of these protesters um

03:44

constantly talking about them as if you

03:46

know it's just like anti-semitic mobs or

03:48

or whatever the people leading these

03:49

protests there's very significant

03:51

portion of progressive young Jewish

03:54

people who are the leaders of of in in

03:57

many cases of some of these protests

03:58

groups from if not now and Jewish voice

04:01

for peace and and many others and they

04:04

are on the receiving end of tremendous

04:05

hate and violence and nobody talks about

04:07

that and as you mentioned what we're

04:08

witnessing in UCLA is absolutely

04:10

horrifying these protesters being

04:12

attacked by you know bear spray and

04:15

fireworks and some of them being beaten

04:16

up and you see like some serious

04:18

injuries but because the climate in this

04:20

country is one in which one side gets

04:22

demonized that empowers and emboldens

04:24

the response not just from police but

04:26

also from Vigilantes and I just want to

04:28

Note One Last Thing um just because

04:31

Stephen is here and I think it's really

04:33

relevant is there's a person that I know

04:36

uh named Simone Zimmerman and who she's

04:39

in town today for an intercept event

04:40

that's right and she's one of the most

04:43

conscientious and decent human beings

04:44

that you'll ever meet and she knows

04:48

personal people um in her life who have

04:50

lost loved ones on October 7th from the

04:51

attack um that Hamas carried out and she

04:54

was horrified by that by that attack and

04:56

she's equally horrified by Israel's

04:58

response and the Mass Slaughter and

05:00

she's one of those people who is

05:01

fighting for a better future for

05:02

Palestinians and Israelis and she was at

05:05

uh at Passover Cedar at Colombia joining

05:09

the protesters and talking about how

05:11

beautiful it is that she's in that setup

05:13

and Stephen quote tweeted that tweet and

05:15

said that he would like to donate

05:17

thousands of gallons of kosine

05:19

presumably so these people can set

05:20

themselves on fire and it's just such an

05:22

ugly and distasteful thing to say and

05:24

I'm genuinely curious of what you're

05:26

thinking when you tweet things like that

05:27

everybody celebrated Bushell doing his

05:29

prot people want to protest that way

05:31

then God help them I guess yeah this is

05:33

not about Bush though but let's keep

05:34

going in response to that because Omar

05:36

set up an interesting position here

05:38

between anti-semitic mobs and peaceful

05:40

protesters so are what is what we're

05:42

seeing on these campuses anti-semitic

05:44

mobs or is it peaceful protesters from

05:46

your perspective Stephen uh from my

05:48

perspective I mean it really depends on

05:49

which series of videos that you watch I

05:51

think from an American perspective it

05:52

really shouldn't matter if they're

05:53

anti-semitic mobs or if they're

05:55

protesting foreign policy or whatever in

05:56

the United States we don't have hate

05:57

speech laws you should be allowed to say

05:59

really whatever you want want in protest

06:01

uh assuming you're not violating any uh

06:03

social or whatever the ordinances are I

06:04

know like for some college campuses

06:06

you're not allowed to block Pathways or

06:07

you can't uh protest if they've got

06:09

events planned for graduations or

06:10

whatever uh and as long as you're not

06:12

disrupting the piece in a way where

06:13

you're like you can't blur loudspeakers

06:15

I think on college campuses as long as

06:16

you're folling the laws you'll be able

06:17

to protest however you want but if you

06:18

are say what we saw from NYPD and LAPD

06:21

actually last night if you're violating

06:23

laws University rules even with an

06:25

encampment if you broke into the Hall

06:28

like they did and have been barric up in

06:30

there what did you make of the NYPD

06:31

respons just at colia for example the I

06:34

like to wait till the dust settles on

06:35

this because I hear so many different

06:36

things about how students were all being

06:37

pro uh peaceful I've seen obviously the

06:39

videos of like some of the stuff being

06:40

broken into um I I think that when it

06:43

comes to an analysis of how to respond

06:45

to these particular events I think that

06:47

the the the start and stop needs to be

06:49

what are the rules and regulations in

06:50

place because a lot of people will jump

06:51

in and start arguing well it's a public

06:53

area so they can be wherever they want

06:54

or do whatever they want without even

06:55

understanding the rules or regulations

06:56

in place um I think as a blanket rule I

06:59

don't know why this particular situation

07:01

would need any kind of unique analysis

07:03

uh it would be the same as all protest

07:04

if you're in a private college uh I

07:06

understanding as they can remove you

07:07

whenever they want it's private property

07:08

if you're in a state funded or public

07:10

university then there are certain areas

07:11

that are supposed to remain open to the

07:13

public and they can't remove you unless

07:14

you are uh not there in an ordinary

07:16

manner if you're disrupting some of

07:17

their event um I don't see anything

07:19

about these particular set of protests

07:20

that would call for any type of unique

07:21

analysis that escapes like that

07:23

fundamental rule to protest in the

07:24

United States uh yeah and your

07:26

fundamental rule then to quote tweet

07:29

with the Cy uh I thought it was insane

07:31

that you had delusional people

07:33

especially young children in the United

07:34

States that don't know the any part of

07:36

this conflict whatsoever which is

07:37

probably the vast majority of the people

07:38

protesting it um that people are

07:40

celebrating people setting themselves on

07:42

fire that is just unbelievable to me you

07:44

saw a guy do it in front of a I think um

07:46

one of the New York City cour houses for

07:47

the Trump stuff you saw uh the Aaron

07:49

Bushnell guy do it for who knows what

07:51

reason um I guess because you thought

07:53

the whole world wasn't already paying

07:54

attention to this issue and yeah the

07:55

idea of people ever celebrating

07:57

themselves in a democratic first world

07:58

country setting themselves on fire for

07:59

an issue that already has an unlimited

08:01

amount of international attention it's

08:02

unbelievably stupid to me yeah but how

08:04

does it relate to this particular

08:05

instance I mean this is a bunch of

08:06

Jewish students celebrating with Pro

08:08

Palestinian students over Passover and

08:10

talking about a climate in which they're

08:11

coming together like why did you decide

08:13

to drag the the Bushnell thing into this

08:15

that's that's one I think it's funny

08:17

when people disingenuously load phrases

08:19

like oh all the Jewish people are

08:21

protesting with these people there are

08:22

so many Jewish people that's not true um

08:24

the last few research thing I saw I

08:25

think for 2023 shows like 90% of people

08:28

who are Jewish support the existence of

08:30

Israel so the idea that there's this

08:31

huge group of

08:32

Israel this is not about the existence

08:34

of Israel there's no question about the

08:35

fact that so many of these protest

08:37

leaders are in fact Jewish these groups

08:39

they're not imaginary they're not a

08:40

figment of your imagination you can

08:41

actually go see them and and look at how

08:43

large their Gatherings are how l l

08:45

voices have been the people who are

08:47

getting arrested in Congress so many of

08:48

them are progressive Jewish

08:50

organizations that are leading this

08:51

effort this is not about some broader

08:53

what are the the views of of American

08:55

Jews about the existence of Israel we're

08:56

just protest about the protest are about

08:59

ending the slaughter of the children of

09:01

Gaza that's what the protests are about

09:03

what do you mean what does it look like

09:04

what is the what is the end condition of

09:06

the the it's not just ending the

09:08

slaughter it's also stopping the

09:09

blockade it's also reaching a just

09:11

resolution to the Palestinian conflict

09:13

it's also probably the unlimited right

09:14

of Return of six million refugees it's

09:16

probably the dissolution of Israel as a

09:18

Jewish majority State it's probably the

09:20

create like I mean what all does that

09:21

entail you're conflating a ton of

09:23

different things a lot of these

09:24

protesters have varying views about this

09:26

some of them support a two-state

09:27

solution some of them support a one-

09:28

state solution but what's bringing

09:30

everybody together in this moment is a

09:32

realization that what Israel is doing to

09:34

Gaza is absolutely unconscionable that

09:36

you slaughter people at that scale that

09:37

Israel is clearly waging a war on the

09:39

civilian population of Gaza that's what

09:41

these people are upset about and they

09:42

want it to come to an end and the

09:43

specific thing that they're protesting

09:45

and maybe we'll we could actually find

09:47

something to agree on here because I've

09:48

seen you you describe yourself as kind

09:50

of a a moderate who like tries to you

09:52

know balance the the extremists on on

09:54

each side here so the specific thing the

09:56

protesters are arguing for at all of

09:58

these different campuses is uh opening

10:00

up the books of their basically the

10:02

hedge funds that run their universities

10:04

and divesting uh from firms that are

10:07

either linked to the war in Gaza or

10:09

linked to Israel uh more generally Brown

10:11

University uh reach an agreement with

10:13

its protesters that they would uh they

10:16

would abandon their encampment in

10:18

exchange for a vote in October to di to

10:21

divest from that that gets to the

10:23

question of resistance and the right the

10:25

right to resistance and so for years it

10:28

has been in the kind of policy of the

10:30

right here and a lot of the center here

10:32

in the United States to make it illegal

10:35

to try to ban people from participating

10:37

in boycotts or divestment efforts or

10:40

lobbying for sanctions uh against Israel

10:43

at the same time uh you say well armed

10:46

resistance is clearly you know off off

10:48

the table so if you if you rule out both

10:52

uh you you only leave people with one

10:54

option so even if you don't support

10:57

boycotting or divesting from Israel do

10:59

you support you know the right of people

11:02

here in the United States to like

11:04

to explicit um for how states have

11:08

banned some of the BDS participation as

11:10

a fundamental right to boycott I think

11:12

in the United States you should always

11:13

have the right to boycott everything

11:14

except for our currency I think um yeah

11:16

you have the right to boycot uh whatever

11:17

you want um I don't know why that should

11:20

ever be made illegal but I I know that

11:21

there are particular things BDS stuff

11:24

that I think States look at but um yeah

11:26

of course you should always have the

11:27

right I wish that the people that would

11:28

talk about conditioning uh support for

11:30

Israel though would also talk about

11:32

conditioning support for Palestine

11:33

because they are some of the highest

11:35

recipients of Aid in the world per

11:36

capita the United States contributes a

11:38

lot of that Aid it's interesting to me

11:39

that seems like we're always talking

11:41

about how we need to condition Aid to

11:42

Israel congratulations Congress Congress

11:44

just banned all funding of unra so yeah

11:48

have seen that well so actually because

11:50

Stephen raised an interesting point that

11:52

what's the kind of end goal of the

11:54

protesters after BD BDS in the service

11:56

of what you know what does that look

11:58

like a one state solution Cho the

11:59

minority well so you said earlier that

12:02

you know it's it sort of depends on

12:03

whatever video you're looking at that

12:04

this is an anti-semitic mob or peaceful

12:07

protesters and I think that's actually

12:09

true there's videos showing all kinds of

12:11

different things which is part of the

12:12

issue of piecing together these stories

12:13

via social media uh so if that if the

12:16

one state solution is kind of the

12:17

ultimate goal of the people that are

12:18

protesting for BDS um what is your like

12:22

do you think they're fundamentally

12:23

anti-semitic do you think they're

12:24

fundamentally are they from your

12:26

perspective just mistaken uh misguided

12:30

or are they

12:31

bigoted um I I don't care try trying to

12:35

sort out like the difference between

12:36

like anti-Semitism and anti-zionism is

12:38

almost impossible and in practice the

12:40

two look almost identical sometimes so

12:42

the obsession of trying to figure out

12:44

like what is the driving thing here

12:46

between anti-Semitism versus anti

12:48

Zionism I think in some cases it's good

12:50

um to to find differences so some people

12:52

are discriminatory against poor people

12:54

some people are discriminatory against

12:55

uh certain races of people and figuring

12:57

out the difference here is really

12:58

important

12:59

when it comes to anti-Semitism versus

13:00

anti Zionism in regards to Israel I

13:03

think that the talking points of

13:04

somebody who's an anti-zionist are

13:05

indistinguishable from the talking

13:06

points of somebody who is anti-Semitic

13:08

so I there are a lot of Israelis who

13:11

don't support the Netanyahu policy

13:14

that's not but that's not uh anti-

13:16

Zionism such that they want a one-state

13:18

solution even Palestinians don't want a

13:20

one state solution om resp it's it's

13:22

it's utterly grotesque to conflate those

13:24

two things opposition to Zionism is

13:26

opposition to the state of Israel the

13:28

way it it came into being at the expense

13:30

of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians

13:32

who were driven out of their homes and

13:33

there's a different Vision that instead

13:35

of having a Jewish state that privileges

13:38

one particular group of people over

13:39

another that you have a vision for a

13:41

state in which everybody is equal

13:42

Americans would be familiar with what

13:44

that Vision actually looks like you

13:45

remember the era of Jim Crow and what

13:47

that meant and people who are demanding

13:49

a different kind of country in which

13:50

everybody is equal that's not the same

13:52

as being anti-white it's absurd to even

13:54

put these remotely in the same category

13:56

and can I just just if I can finish just

13:58

on on the point of BDS BDS also by the

14:00

way has been clear about the fact that

14:01

they don't take any particular political

14:03

solution uh it does certainly happen

14:05

that a lot of BDS activists do support a

14:07

one-state solution but that is not the

14:09

position of of BDS itself as a movement

14:11

that is calling for boycotts and

14:12

isolation and just on the Free Speech

14:14

angle you have States all over the

14:17

country that are passing laws that

14:19

basically make it punishable to boycott

14:21

not just Israel but Israeli settlements

14:24

that are built in the occupied

14:25

territories and those settlements are

14:27

war crimes under international law and

14:29

so you have a situation in which this

14:31

country part of its founding is that we

14:34

celebrate boycotts of you know as as

14:37

part of deep entrenched part of American

14:39

culture the boycott of British treat

14:41

during the the founding of the country

14:42

the Montgomery Bus Boycott during the

14:44

Civil Rights Movement and now you're

14:46

saying that boycotting the war crimes of

14:49

a foreign country is somehow punishable

14:51

people being denied the ability to work

14:53

with State uh governments or or schools

14:56

or or or medical facilities or anything

14:58

that is affiliated with the state those

15:00

are transparently unconstitutional laws

15:03

they have been challenged by

15:04

organizations like the ACLU they have

15:06

been defeated in court in many cases but

15:09

unfortunately they keep popping up

15:10

faster than the rate at which you can

15:12

challenge them and that's a serious

15:13

crisis anybody who's serious about being

15:16

committed to free speech and saying that

15:18

Americans should be able to exercise the

15:19

right to boycott uh including when it

15:21

comes to Israel or Israel's atrocities

15:24

um that's an absolutely critical issue

15:25

that we're not we're not talking enough

15:27

about that you have the power of the

15:28

state being used to silence people's

15:30

right to to free speech and I think

15:31

that's a really important angle I want

15:32

to move to the conduct of the War uh by

15:35

Israel pretty soon but I on the one

15:38

State versus two State question isn't it

15:39

the case that the current Israeli

15:41

government position is one state like

15:43

there's a complete rejection across the

15:45

board River To The Sea of a Palestinian

15:47

State River to the Sea so yeah I would

15:50

say the I think the lud platform is

15:51

essentially always said as much yeah so

15:54

okay so you so more agreement like

15:56

you're you you you oppose that you think

15:58

that

15:59

well I oppose it he's in favor of the

16:01

one state where the Jews live as a

16:02

minority in that state yeah no just to

16:04

be clear the Netanyahu government and

16:06

the lud are in favor of a one state in

16:07

which Jews are privileged over

16:09

Palestinians with Palestinians occupying

16:11

M multi- tiers if you're a citizen of

16:13

Israel you have a certain amount of

16:14

Rights if you're in the West Bank you

16:15

get this many rights and if you're in

16:16

Gaza you're completely under siege and

16:17

and there's nothing that you can do

16:18

which is country you've described every

16:20

country my vision of one us have more

16:22

rights than noncitizens yeah well in

16:24

those countries you don't permanently

16:25

occupy those people and prevent them

16:26

from having any rights and deny them

16:27

citizenship as well and that's the

16:29

fundamental problem is that Israel's

16:30

vision is Palestinians can never be free

16:32

they can't get their own State and they

16:34

can't live as equals within Israel so

16:36

your status is just to be permanently

16:37

occupied and helpless without rights and

16:39

that's a vision that I think is

16:40

absolutely nobody who has a conscience

16:42

can actually support and my vision of a

16:44

one state would be one in which

16:46

everybody actually has equal rights and

16:48

everybody can live equally precisely the

16:50

way that we live in the United States

16:51

which is a really fun position to take

16:53

in the west when we have like no stake

16:54

in the game I think it's fun to scream

16:55

that at protest I think it's fun to go

16:56

on Twitter and do that um I think at the

16:58

end of the day that type of rhetoric is

16:59

ultimately destructive to Palestinians

17:01

because everybody knows that that's

17:02

never happening it's a pipe dream uh

17:04

less than 30% of Palestinians are in

17:06

favor of a singular state where Jews and

17:08

uh Arabs have the exact same rights

17:10

literally nobody wants that people in

17:11

Israel don't want that it's literally

17:13

you're just virtue signaling and paying

17:14

lip service to an idea that is grossly

17:16

unpopular across the entirety of Israel

17:18

and Palestine not only that um the idea

17:20

that you would have a singular State

17:22

created where 6 million Palestinian

17:24

refugees are then brought back into the

17:26

state there's no shot that any Jewish

17:27

person living there who has lived

17:29

through the second inada who has lived

17:30

through Hamas attacks who's lived

17:31

through Hezbollah attacks who's lived

17:32

through International support for houthi

17:34

attacks is going to feel safe in such a

17:36

state and they know that there would be

17:37

absolutely no international support for

17:38

them if that state were created and Jews

17:40

would have start getting slaughtered and

17:41

massed there let's toss it to Omar with

17:43

that for response and also I'll sort of

17:46

add to that maybe narrow it down a

17:48

little bit what is then let's let's say

17:50

you know hypothetically would take the

17:51

best faith argument not from Netanyahu

17:54

but let's say an Israeli citizen who's

17:56

both concerned about their safety and

17:57

concerned about Netanyahu leadership

17:59

what does the path towards peace uh from

18:03

the perspective of an Israeli what does

18:05

it look like when they see the the level

18:08

of support for Hamas and we can

18:09

obviously get into why so many people in

18:12

Palestine feel like they need to support

18:14

Hamas yeah no in a way you're putting

18:16

your finger on on the problem precisely

18:17

I mean Israel is upset that there's so

18:19

much hostility towards them but the

18:20

reason there's so much hostility is

18:22

because of the way that they have bet

18:22

treated Palestinians for decade after

18:24

decade just the level of brutality that

18:26

Palestinians have experienced under

18:27

occupation has been absolutely horrific

18:30

and you know when you talk about the the

18:32

prospects for peace there was a time in

18:34

which Palestinians recognized that they

18:36

there's a significant power differential

18:38

that they can't actually get Freedom

18:39

From The River To The Sea in their own

18:41

Homeland and there was an an an

18:43

Indulgence of the idea that maybe we can

18:44

have a two-state compromise in which

18:46

Palestinians would only get the West

18:48

Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem which is

18:51

about oneth of the entire territory of

18:54

their historic Homeland and Israel gets

18:55

to keep the other four fifths that from

18:58

Palestinian perspec Ive is a massive

18:59

Palestinian compromise bending over

19:01

backwards to facilitate some kind of two

19:03

states and all what Israel was required

19:05

to do is not Grant Palestinian some sort

19:07

of favor but simply comply with

19:09

international law by withdrawing from

19:11

the occupied territories they're

19:12

obligated to do that anyway the occupied

19:15

territories do not belong to Israel and

19:17

during this period Palestinian support

19:19

for peace with Israel was skyrocketed uh

19:22

public opinion sure that there's

19:23

significant support for two solution

19:25

support Hamas way down even though Hamas

19:27

was trying to destabilize situation at

19:29

the time committing acts of violence

19:31

they did not enjoy any support among

19:32

Palestinians it is only when it became

19:34

clear that Israel has no interest

19:36

whatsoever and allowing Palestinians to

19:38

have a state and spent the entire

19:40

so-called peace process building more

19:42

and more and more settlements just

19:43

expanding them throughout the occupied

19:44

Palestinian territories where

19:46

Palestinians saw the prospect for a

19:47

Palestinian State shrinking by the day

19:49

on the ground they understood that this

19:51

entire process was was a sham and the

19:54

fact that Israeli restrictions were

19:55

increasing Israeli violence was was

19:57

ongoing it became clear that this was

19:59

not going to be a path to in which

20:01

Palestinians can get a real State and

20:02

that's when you got the shift in public

20:04

opinion back in terms of supporting for

20:06

armed resistance as the only way because

20:07

clearly Israel could not be talked into

20:10

seeing Palestinians as equal human

20:11

beings and granting them but then what

20:13

now well a shorter version maybe for

20:14

stepen to respond to is that the way to

20:16

defeat Hamas is through peace not war

20:19

what's wrong with that uh it sounds

20:21

really brutal but the issue is that the

20:23

unlimited amount of international

20:24

support for the Palestinians means the

20:26

Palestinians will never look to peace

20:27

they shouldn't they always have an

20:28

unlimited Reservoir internationally of

20:30

people who will encourage the delusions

20:32

that if they continue to fight they're

20:33

going to get a better deal it's the

20:34

reason why they walked away in 2000 from

20:37

uh Camp David is the reason why they

20:38

walked away from the taba Summit is the

20:40

reason why a boss walked away in 2008

20:41

from mert is the reason why the Oslo

20:43

cords were never negotiated in 93 that

20:45

period of violence that he's talking

20:46

about from 993 to 2000 where the

20:48

Israelis were continuing to expand

20:49

settlements into the West Bank is true

20:51

but Palestinians also contined to engage

20:52

in Terrorist activities a lot of people

20:53

didn't trust Arafat because Arafat would

20:55

sign on to a deal for the Oslo courts

20:56

and then he would go over uh to

20:58

Switzerland and he'd make speeches in

21:00

universities about how like yeah we

21:01

agreed to this now but you know we're

21:02

going to get them as soon as as soon as

21:03

we get a little bit we're going to take

21:04

more um which is ironically what they've

21:06

accus Israel of doing for the past 100

21:08

years um I I think that in order for

21:10

this conflict to actually start to reach

21:12

some kind of resolution I think that

21:14

again it sounds mean but Palestinians

21:16

need to feel like they have something at

21:18

stake and it looks like they do but in

21:21

reality politically Palestinians have

21:22

never lost anything because people

21:24

continue to make them feel as though

21:25

they can always go back to borders that

21:27

existed 80 years ago people will

21:29

constantly say you just said it here

21:30

well what's the fair the fair thing they

21:32

only want two a sliver of this land one

21:34

fifth of the territory yeah they tried

21:35

like three four five different Wars to

21:37

get more and they lost uh you can't

21:39

continue to go back to the first try

21:41

over and over and over again and demand

21:42

the deal that was on the table before

21:44

you walked away from the partition plan

21:46

in 47 you can't go to war five times and

21:48

then keep going back to another set of

21:50

borders there're always one generation

21:52

behind when it comes to accepting some

21:54

type of actual peace deal so as long as

21:56

Palestinians have people like Omar

21:57

internationally that will support them

21:58

in an unlimited delusion to fight

22:00

forever Palestinians will never try to

22:01

accept these and they shouldn't they

22:02

really should there's no reason to so

22:04

but Omar just what in one sense if you

22:08

have public polling that shows some 70%

22:10

this was from a a Palestinian polling

22:12

firm in December 72% supported uh what

22:15

happened on October 7th so and we can

22:18

talk about why and we will I'm sure so

22:20

with all of that said what now uh what

22:23

if you you know if you were in charge of

22:25

Israeli foreign policy in in a

22:27

hypothetical sense um and I I think this

22:28

will be a response to what Stephen just

22:30

said what happens now to get to a

22:33

position where to your point there can

22:35

be Justice I'm happy to address that but

22:38

just I have to go back to a particular

22:39

point the idea that Palestinians are

22:41

rejectionist because they have so much

22:42

international support I think is just

22:43

thoroughly absurd Palestinians are

22:45

paying an unbelievable cost every single

22:48

day their lives are completely

22:50

brutalized under occupation and the idea

22:52

that they see no cost to continuing to

22:53

fighting on forever it's just completely

22:55

ridiculous it's it's detached from

22:56

reality it's as if you're unaware of

22:57

what Palestinian conditions are under

22:59

Israeli occupation the reason why they

23:01

were willing to bend over backwards I

23:03

mean if you look at the history of

23:04

negotiations you look at the Palestine

23:06

papers that got leaked shortly after um

23:09

I think back in the mid 2000s it's

23:11

obvious that Palestinians were bending

23:12

over backwards to try to make that deal

23:14

work and Israel insisted on expanding

23:15

more and more settlements and yes you

23:17

can say that Palestinian violence was

23:18

ongoing at the time but so is Israeli

23:20

violence I mean the attack that happened

23:22

on the mosque in heon where 30

23:24

Palestinians uh nearly 30 Palestinians

23:26

were killed by a Jewish terrorist named

23:28

Goldstein that happened during the

23:30

so-called peace process and Israel

23:32

responded by putting Palestinians in

23:34

Hebron under curfew to prevent any

23:36

possible retaliation that those are the

23:38

conditions but nobody looks at that

23:39

incident and says oh well there was

23:40

Israeli violence therefore the Israelis

23:43

you know were not that's the reason why

23:44

they all over isra history there there

23:45

was a m in 29

23:47

where the point I'm making is that this

23:50

is besides the point that yes we can

23:51

point to individual atrocities and that

23:54

does not change the fact that throughout

23:55

the peace process if Israel were

23:57

genuinely interested in allowing for a

23:58

Palestinian state to exist they would

24:00

not have spent the entire so-called

24:01

peace process taking up more and more

24:03

and more of the West Bank so it's the

24:04

disingenuous nature of of of of Israeli

24:07

policy that that's the reason why this

24:09

is a problem now to your point of what

24:11

now you I was going say say they are

24:12

genuinely interested in a peace process

24:14

and you're you're in charge yeah what

24:15

what do they do so right now we have a

24:17

situation right there is a problem of

24:18

the fact that the overwhelming majority

24:20

of Palestinians support groups like

24:22

Hamas you have a majority of people in

24:23

Israel overwhelming majority support the

24:26

most vicious policies of the N

24:28

government and just carrying on and they

24:29

think that they're not going far enough

24:31

in Gaza and and and so on and that just

24:34

it's it's important to know that hatred

24:35

is a symptom of the conflict and not the

24:37

cause of it people get this stuff

24:39

backwards when you think of apartheid in

24:41

South Africa there was plenty of

24:43

hostility and we eventually had a

24:45

Reconciliation process between white and

24:47

black people in South Africa but only

24:49

after apartheid fell that's when you can

24:51

have reconciliation but the idea that

24:53

you can try to work on how people feel

24:55

about each other in the midst of one

24:56

side occupying the other controlling

24:58

every aspect of their lives and

24:59

brutalizing them day in and day out

25:01

there's no surprise that there are

25:03

hostile feelings and yes when

25:04

Palestinians do respond with violence

25:06

Israelis who are out of touch with the

25:07

reasons why all of this is happening are

25:09

going to develop hostile feelings as

25:11

well this is a moment in which the

25:12

International Community has to step in

25:14

this is not about making Israelis and

25:16

Palestinians like each other right now

25:18

this is about making sure that one side

25:19

does not get to dominate the other until

25:21

the end of time and the status quo

25:23

leading up to October 7th is one in

25:25

which Israel dominated every aspect of

25:28

pal Palestinian life so you can say yes

25:30

both sides hate each other but one side

25:31

is in charge of everything one side gets

25:34

to decide whether they want to put the

25:36

people of Gaza on a diet as they were

25:38

talking about you know when they first

25:39

imposed The Siege on Gaza just

25:41

Palestinians don't get to decide how

25:43

much food Israelis get they don't get to

25:44

demolish Israeli Homes at will whenever

25:47

they feel like it they don't get to

25:48

humiliate Israelis at checkpoints day in

25:50

and day out so because there's a dynamic

25:52

in which one side is imposing an illegal

25:54

occupation over another people and

25:55

taking over their land that has to come

25:57

to an end and can bring it to an end

25:59

through International pressure primarily

26:01

from the United States as the country

26:02

that has the most leverage over Israel

26:04

to say not another Penny until that

26:06

occupation ends and when that occupation

26:08

comes to an end we can talk about

26:10

sorting out the exact specifics of how

26:12

we get more conciliation and cooperation

26:14

between Palestinians and Israelis and

26:16

when when it comes to International

26:17

support for Palestinians there's one

26:19

side that has had the international

26:22

support of the world's great superpower

26:24

and right the political and Military uh

26:26

support as well Israel what about the un

26:28

supporting the Arab the Soviet Union uh

26:32

has had a very complicated relationship

26:34

be clear the Soviet Arab states before

26:36

the United the United States didn't

26:37

truly start Israel until about 66 6 soet

26:40

Union also hasn't been here since 19

26:42

since 1991 the conflict also didn't

26:44

start after the 91 after the collapse of

26:45

the Soviet Union but the the point is

26:47

that Israel has had a lot of agency and

26:49

and Benjamin Netanyahu in particular as

26:52

you know the Prime Minister for most of

26:53

the last what 25 30 years has had an

26:56

extraordinary amount of agency as well I

26:58

wanted to read to you um a a a a piece

27:01

of an essay published in haret recently

27:03

by Israeli historian uh youall Noah

27:06

hararia he writes given the murderous

27:08

nature of Hamas this time its allies

27:10

gave Israel free reign for many months

27:12

to conquer Gaza Liberate the Israeli

27:14

hostages change the situation in the

27:16

strip according to Israel's best

27:18

judgment and create a new order in the

27:20

region the Netanyahu government wasted

27:23

this historic opportunity and also

27:24

wasted The Bravery and dedication of the

27:26

soldiers of the IDF the Yahoo government

27:28

failed to exploit its Battlefield

27:30

victories to reach an agreement on the

27:32

release of all the hostages and to

27:33

advance an alternative political order

27:35

in Gaza instead it decided to knowingly

27:38

inflict on Gaza an unnecessary

27:40

humanitarian disaster and in so doing

27:43

inflicted on Israel an unnecessary

27:45

political disaster one by one our allies

27:48

have become horrified by what is

27:50

happening in Gaza and one by one they

27:52

are calling for an immediate ceasefire

27:54

and even for a weapons embargo on Israel

27:57

uh even during the worst moments of

27:59

October 7th Hamas was nowhere near

28:01

vanquishing Israel but the ruinous

28:03

policy of the Netanyahu government

28:05

following October 7th has placed Israel

28:07

in existential danger so when I ask you

28:10

it seems like a pretty fundamental irony

28:12

that if Israel had listened to critics

28:14

like Omar and myself after October 7th

28:16

who warned against enacting violence

28:19

just for the purposes of Revenge and

28:21

potentially for ethnic cleansing of Gaza

28:24

they would ironically and paradoxically

28:25

be in a much stronger global strategic

28:29

political position than they are now

28:31

where they're facing not just isolation

28:34

but uh charges before the icj and

28:36

potentially before uh the ICC so are

28:40

they making a mistake in following kind

28:41

of the more bellicose advice that

28:44

they're getting uh from their so-called

28:46

allies uh that's a touching essay who

28:49

was the alternative order politically

28:51

besides Hamas that would have R risen up

28:53

in the Gaza Strip if there was an

28:55

alternative political order I would love

28:57

to hear it even in the West Bank there's

28:59

a reason why abas suspended elections 20

29:01

years ago even in the West Bank Hamas

29:03

enjoys pretty broad support um I mean

29:06

there are answers to this question and

29:07

it's not rhetorical do you want to take

29:08

that I mean it's well hold on wait wait

29:11

before he does also to um to to uh

29:15

elaborate a bit on on the military

29:16

objectives I think Hamas needs to go I

29:18

don't think that there's any future that

29:20

happens where Israel can negotiate

29:21

anything whether it's peace or war with

29:23

Hamas remaining as the government in the

29:25

Gaza Strip I don't think any of the

29:26

surrounding Arab states wanted uh Hamas

29:29

to remain uh as the government in the

29:30

Gaza Strip it's a it's a disaster um

29:33

you've had a series of conflicts in 2008

29:35

you had castled 2014 you had protective

29:37

Edge 2018 you had the response to the

29:40

great March of return uh and now in 2023

29:42

you had a massive attack on October 7th

29:44

the idea that you would just allow them

29:46

to stay here after spending at least a

29:47

year preparing for what was probably the

29:49

I think the single largest day of

29:50

violence against Jews since the holocost

29:52

it would be that's an untable position I

29:54

don't think a single other country of

29:56

person in all human history be asked to

29:58

government like that in place can we

29:59

pause for one second on the the quote

30:01

response to the great March of return

30:02

for people who don't know the great

30:04

March of return was a civil society Le

30:06

uh Gaza initiative that was a

30:08

non-violent demonstration where every

30:10

Friday people would meet and kind of

30:12

March to the fence you know s

30:14

symbolically gazing out at land that had

30:17

been that they had lost o over the years

30:20

uh the IDF responded um by killing a

30:24

pretty significant amount of

30:25

Palestinians but also Ming I believe

30:28

tens of thousands to the point where uh

30:32

the the UN the UN put out a report

30:34

noting that it had become common place

30:36

to see people walking around with one

30:38

leg uh missing a leg missing an arm uh

30:41

the there were uh IDF soldiers who said

30:45

we were told shoot shoot out the legs

30:47

you know one guy said he hit like 40

30:48

plus legs like in in a single day Hamas

30:52

opposed this at the start because it was

30:55

nonviolent because it was Civil Society

30:57

uh LED Hamas eventually caved under

31:00

public pressure and and ended up

31:02

supporting the great March of return

31:04

which I think goes to your question what

31:05

is the political order that can replace

31:07

Hamas if there is a

31:09

nonviolent uh movement that can gain

31:13

traction then Hamas is is defeated by

31:17

that Hamas is pressured into supporting

31:19

that just by the the kind of public

31:22

support for it like happened with the

31:23

great March return the Israeli response

31:26

was not to say wow let's Embrace this

31:29

non-violent civil society-led movement

31:32

and marginalize Hamas and reach a deal

31:34

with this Palestinian uh force uh that

31:37

could even you know see a a unification

31:40

between you know the West Bank and and

31:42

Gaza toward a long-term peaceful

31:45

solution it was let's annihilate this

31:47

let's let's shoot and kill and maim the

31:50

peaceful protesters which only then uh

31:53

fortifies hamas's position and allows

31:55

them to say that we were right all along

31:57

we told you you can't deal with Israel

31:59

we warned you against this that violence

32:01

is the only way forward that is a

32:03

fantastic retelling that is almost

32:05

entirely fictional for the great March

32:07

of return it did start off as a

32:08

generally peaceful protest the idea

32:11

behind the march of return was returning

32:12

to Israel um the UN has released a

32:15

report where they've gone over a lot of

32:16

the shootings uh it's very curious that

32:18

if you actually read the entire report

32:20

you'll notice that almost every single

32:21

shooting happens between 50 to 100 met

32:24

in range which is curious why would if

32:27

these are because I was told I Believe

32:29

by I think finlin himself said or might

32:30

have been Rani that this was a crack

32:32

team of Israeli snipers but apparently

32:33

their rifles only worked up to 100

32:35

meters the reason why may they're just

32:37

lazy or maybe the reason why is because

32:38

there is a no-o zone between the fence

32:40

and 100 met is because when people get

32:42

too close um people try to cut the fence

32:44

open people try to break through which

32:45

is what was happening towards the end of

32:46

the they had no choice but to shoot all

32:47

those unarmed people it's if it's it

32:49

doesn't matter if you're armed or

32:50

unarmed if you're approaching an area

32:52

that you're not supposed to be in and

32:53

then when people start to try to break

32:54

into the break through the fence it's

32:56

that's the that's the rules of the the

32:57

Border if you try to cross any

32:59

militarized border you're probably going

33:00

to get shot at also towards the end of

33:02

the great Marsh return there were people

33:04

that were throwing stones that were

33:05

sending over incendiary balloons that

33:07

were causing like fires to spread on the

33:08

other side of the fence all this is

33:10

documented even by the UN and that was

33:12

when the majority of the firing from the

33:13

Israeli police happened um if you want

33:15

to say that they shouldn't be shooting

33:16

at people who were close to the fence

33:18

because you don't like that policy or

33:19

whatever that's fine but characterizing

33:20

that as like just open firing into a

33:22

bunch of innocent people that are

33:23

standing there with the goal of just

33:25

Ming people for no reason is the most

33:27

unbelievable telling of what happened

33:29

the end of that event it's exactly what

33:30

happened actually just to characterize

33:32

it just you know get a a even more

33:34

complete picture Israeli policy is

33:36

people in Gaza have no right to go in

33:38

and out of the cage that they've been

33:40

placed into they under Complete Siege

33:42

their economy is in shambles because

33:43

Israel does not allow them to trade with

33:44

the outside world they can't have an

33:46

airport because Israel doesn't feel like

33:48

they are entitled to an airport can't

33:49

have a sea port um you know when you

33:51

look at the rates of unemployment over

33:53

50% in Gaza at the time and if those

33:55

people who are trapped in this cage Come

33:57

A Little Too Close to the Border then we

33:58

open fire at them and kill them even

33:59

when they're unarmed cuz that's border

34:01

policy if this is

34:02

something it's more than 6,000 according

34:05

to the UN quote unquote more than 6,000

34:07

unarmed demonstrators uh were shot by

34:10

military snipers week after week at the

34:11

protest sites by the separation fence

34:13

there's no denying that yes some people

34:15

try to open up and some people sent

34:17

inary balloons over the border and so on

34:18

but by and large when you look at the

34:19

cases human rights organizations have

34:21

been clear about the fact that people

34:22

were targeted when they posed absolutely

34:24

no threat to Israeli soldiers so Israeli

34:26

soldiers open fire on people and

34:28

targeted specifically Medics and

34:29

journalists and children and people who

34:31

are disabled game that's being played

34:34

when we say POS no threat to Israeli

34:36

soldiers um there was one un report that

34:38

came out that analyzed it that claimed

34:39

that every single shooting except for

34:41

one was unjustified but the way that

34:43

they got that is they didn't analyze

34:44

that as an armed conflict they analyzed

34:45

that as a policing event and when you

34:47

analyze things internationally as a

34:48

policing event typically police aren't

34:49

allowed to shoot or kill anybody unless

34:51

they pose a direct threat to the

34:52

individual why would it be analyzed as

34:54

an armed conflict if one side wasn't

34:56

armed because Hamas was present

34:58

this they wen't shooting they weren't it

35:00

doesn't matter if they were shooting if

35:01

you've got an enemy if you've got an

35:02

enemy military that is present amongst

35:04

people that are

35:05

performing there

35:07

was Hamas is considered oppositional

35:10

force and if you've got people that are

35:11

participating in guns at the time

35:13

doesn't matter if guns or not have

35:15

nothing to doal humanarian law is

35:17

absolutely clear about the fact that a

35:18

situation you can only kill combatants

35:20

if they're in combat and they're armed

35:22

you can't find somebody absolutely not

35:23

true you do not become OED combat you do

35:25

not you not do not all of a sudden gain

35:27

the protction of a civilian if you're an

35:29

enemy combatant without a gun that is

35:31

AB abolutely

35:36

enemy Google ihat let do that abely just

35:40

to go back to a point that you made

35:41

earlier about sort of hold on just to be

35:42

clear I just wanted just to so you're

35:44

saying that like if if there's a

35:45

military and you're fighting the enemy

35:46

and you guys are going to lose if you

35:47

just drop your guns you can just like

35:48

run back and nobody can shoot it yes if

35:50

you drop your guns and raise your arms

35:51

you can't be that's surrendering that's

35:52

different than running away you can't

35:54

drop your guns and just run away and you

35:56

can't get shot cuz you have no firearms

35:57

military threat at the time it's a

35:58

military engagement true that is

36:01

absolutely not true okay I I

36:03

just Ry we have the control room look

36:05

this up you're wrong about this that's

36:08

that's a level of detail again you start

36:09

like playing up imaginary scenarios of

36:11

somebody shooting at you and then

36:12

dropping their gun and turning around no

36:14

no but that's what your rule would lead

36:15

to we have to be able to analyze like

36:16

this is the problem we can't acknowledge

36:18

like the basic realities conflict this

36:20

brings up a really fundamental reality

36:21

actually because Omar was talking about

36:23

airports and the Sea Parts ports and I

36:25

think we all agree it would be miserable

36:27

to live in a territory that doesn't have

36:29

an airport doesn't have a sea port uh

36:31

the argument from Israel and supporters

36:33

of Israel is that if you put an airport

36:36

in Gaza Hamas would immediately seize it

36:38

and use it to use Parts use the

36:40

Technologies to kill Israelis yeah and

36:43

nobody asks if you have an airport in

36:45

Israel will the Israeli government use

36:46

it to import weapons from the United

36:47

States that they then use to kill

36:48

Palestinians you see there's an

36:50

inequality here that we never really

36:51

acknowledge I don't think that's unfair

36:53

I just mean so what is like now what is

36:56

the path to creating a

36:59

do we think Hamas would use the airport

37:01

and the seport to bring in weapons I

37:02

have no doubt that they would exactly in

37:03

the same way the Israeli government

37:05

Imports weapons and commits massive

37:07

atrocities their terrorism against what

37:09

can people in Palestine do to create a

37:12

situation where that's not and what can

37:14

people in Israel do frankly to create a

37:16

situation and and and to Steven's

37:18

earlier point that which we did not

37:19

address is like you know he thinks the

37:20

goal of removing Hamas from power is

37:22

absolutely essential and you've got to

37:23

do it first I want to point out that

37:25

double standard as nobody says we have

37:27

to get rid of these Israeli government

37:28

is government is than it's not even

37:30

close it's not it's not by any sense

37:34

better what sense better in in in that

37:36

it's a democracy better in that it

37:38

responds to International Global

37:39

pressure uh better in that their goal

37:41

isn't the entire annihilation of a group

37:43

of people if you think that the

37:44

absolutely is the their absolute

37:46

intention is the absolute eraser of

37:48

Palestinians Palestinian population has

37:51

exploded because they're doing it in

37:53

slow motion there slow motion going the

37:55

opposite way is it like when you go

37:56

faster than light backwards through

37:58

that's a very very cute talking point

37:59

but when you look at what actually

38:00

Israeli policy has been for literally

38:02

decades it's been confining Palestinians

38:04

to smaller and smaller areas you can see

38:06

it unfolding in the case of Gaza they've

38:08

just given up on Gaza they've basically

38:09

besieged the entire thing it's a cage

38:11

Palestinians can do whatever they want

38:13

there they don't care about Gaza anymore

38:14

and that's how they wanted to leave it

38:15

in the case of the West Bank they

38:16

absolutely are squeezing Palestinians

38:18

into smaller and smaller areas so you

38:20

can talk about the Palestinian

38:21

population increasing in terms of

38:22

numbers but they're in the areas that

38:24

Israel is interested in taking over

38:25

they're absolutely decreasing when you

38:27

look at Jerusalem Jerusalem every few

38:29

years you look at it and the number of

38:30

Palestinians in Jerusalem is actually

38:32

decreasing it's a deliberate policy of

38:34

pushing Palestinians out but so from my

38:36

perspective you look the number of

38:37

Palestinians is decreasing are you

38:39

saying because some of them are getting

38:40

citizenship for Israel now because

38:42

Israel is demolishing their homes and

38:45

replacing them and in some cases you see

38:47

it actually on video of Palestinian

38:49

families being thrown out of their homes

38:50

in East Jerusalem and jewi stutler come

38:52

and take over those there is there is

38:53

citizenship available for every person

38:55

living even in East J there's a lot of

38:56

people want because they don't want to

38:58

be part of Israel do you think real

39:00

quick because you mentioned between the

39:01

Hamas and the do you think if Hamas ran

39:03

Israel and Jews lived in the Gaza Strip

39:05

in the West Bank do you think the

39:06

situation would look the same or do you

39:07

think Kamas would treat them worse I I

39:09

have no idea take wouldn't even You

39:11

couldn't possibly would look like to be

39:13

treated worse than Gaz is being treated

39:15

now a million times it could be actual

39:18

starvation it could be actual

39:21

ding people are dying by the

39:23

dozens I wish I brought a list of me I

39:26

have like 52 different stories between

39:28

October and now where verge of famine

39:31

imited Mass starvation almost famine

39:33

about to start it's been happening for 6

39:35

months and prior to this people

39:37

happening for 20 years doz of children

39:38

dying if you go by alaz reports the

39:41

number is 32 and that's the most

39:43

favorable Al re-reporting the gazin

39:46

health so that's acceptable for you say

39:48

it was accept saying the idea that this

39:50

place has been stared for decades and we

39:52

have 32 possibly show for

39:55

it you're once again conflating not

39:57

complaining I a very simp question that

39:59

you're not going to answer which is if

40:00

Hamas ran Israel do you think that the

40:02

treat would be better I don't see the

40:04

point of speculating about things that

40:05

we have no idea you said that the IDF is

40:07

worse than Hamas yes in terms of the the

40:09

scale of the atrocities they committed

40:10

there so in that Cas you that the United

40:13

States is worse than Hamas and that

40:15

basically every single large country is

40:16

worse than Hamas because the scale of

40:18

country I think the genocidal campaign

40:19

that Israel is currently engaged in in

40:21

Gaza is is kind of unique it's not it's

40:22

not common place for countries to engage

40:24

in that level of violence when you say

40:25

that October genal let me let me just I

40:30

just want I just want

40:31

to so many things having Chas theall

40:35

into different dire be very clear then

40:36

you can answer everyone okay I am not

40:38

saying so many things I will ask a very

40:39

clear question you won't engage and then

40:41

you're going to Yap about a whole bunch

40:42

of unrelated stuff like genocidal

40:44

campaigns I'll read it one more time

40:45

you're not going to answer I understand

40:46

my very clear question was if Hamas was

40:49

in control of Israel and then the IDF

40:51

and Israel was in control of the uh Gaza

40:53

Strip and the West Bank do we think that

40:55

Hamas who would now own nuclear weapons

40:56

and full military and everything would

40:58

they be treating the Jews better or

40:59

worse than the Jews are treating the

41:01

Palestinians and my answer is I don't

41:02

know okay I of course so um You'

41:06

mentioned that Hamas has to go I think

41:07

the Israeli government has to go by that

41:09

logic and the question then becomes what

41:11

cost would be acceptable to impose on

41:13

Israeli civilians in order to get the

41:14

Israel government out of power would you

41:15

impose starvation and all that of course

41:17

nobody would endorse that everybody

41:19

understand that that's a completely

41:19

monstrous um idea for a government that

41:22

has committed far greater atrocities

41:24

than Hamas has and then you have the

41:25

second point of if you want to get rid

41:27

of Hamas it might be useful to ask

41:29

yourself how Hamas came into being how

41:31

did they come about how did they get

41:33

support and it's obvious that brutality

41:36

towards Palestinians is how Hamas came

41:38

into being because they created

41:41

literally and it's it's you know you

41:44

even even if you want to leave out the

41:46

part where Netanyahu was effec was

41:48

effectively in indulging their existence

41:50

as a means of dividing Palestinians

41:52

Israeli politicians have been quite

41:54

explicit about the fact that they see

41:55

this as a useful policy to prevent a

41:56

Palestinian state from existing but

41:58

Hamas gained support as an alternative

42:01

to the Palestinian Authority that was

42:02

plant that was bending over backwards to

42:04

try to accommodate Israel and they said

42:05

no no no we can get you freedom because

42:07

we're going to fight and that's how they

42:09

gain power and if your idea is to defeat

42:11

Hamas and get them out of power by

42:12

brutalizing Palestinians even more

42:14

that's just completely delusional even

42:16

if you get rid of Hamas as an

42:17

organization whatever replaces it

42:19

whether they call themselves Hamas or

42:20

not you're creating another generation

42:22

of traumatized people who are going to

42:24

be desperate for revenge and you're just

42:26

basically prep Ting conflict that was

42:28

the point that I was making earlier some

42:30

of the founders of Hamas as children

42:32

live through massacres in Gaza in the in

42:34

the 1950s this well wellknown well-known

42:36

history doesn't justify what they did

42:39

but it raises questions about whether or

42:40

not tactically strategically those

42:42

massacres worked to Israel's benefit now

42:45

if you are Netanyahu and you want to

42:46

divide Palestinians and extremists are

42:48

good for you then it does work to their

42:50

benefit but if you're trying to defeat

42:51

Hamas or the ideology of kind of armed

42:55

resistance to Israel if you really want

42:57

a two-state solution if you really want

42:59

a solution to this crisis then why would

43:03

more cowbell like more violence why

43:05

would that why would that finally work I

43:07

don't think more or less violence will

43:09

work it it there has to be we try less

43:13

we've tried more it's not less hasn't of

43:15

the entire history of the Palestinian

43:18

people against Israel since 48 has been

43:20

one of violence non-stop all right so

43:23

that the idea that like it's if you're

43:25

just peaceful for a little bit it'll fix

43:26

things isn't going to work the

43:28

Palestinian people don't want peace they

43:30

want Justice and in their mind right now

43:32

justice has to do with acquiring some

43:34

amount of of Israel now whether that is

43:38

the entirety of Israel into a single

43:40

state or whether that's a two-state

43:42

solution again but that's not acquiring

43:44

parts of Israel if you're talking about

43:45

two states that's acquiring occupied

43:47

territory that is not Israel's and

43:48

Israel has to withdraw from it's not

43:50

what do you mean it's not Israel's it

43:52

does not belong to Israel international

43:53

law international law is extremely clear

43:55

about the fact that they have to

43:56

withdraw from that ter International not

43:57

extremely clear what are you ex you're

43:59

going to reference a single advisory

44:01

opinion written by the by the UN in 2004

44:04

they

44:06

endol anend mountain of un resolutions

44:09

that make absolutely clear that is

44:12

has before we get into the resolutions

44:14

um since you raised the virtue of the

44:16

Israeli government I did want to ask if

44:18

you had seen the plus 972 article on the

44:20

lavender AI program I I imagine you saw

44:23

this yeah I read through it a bit so let

44:25

me read you a little portion of it so

44:26

the idfu artificial intelligence uh to

44:29

identify ham Hamas members uh it used to

44:33

be that you had to be I think kernel or

44:34

above to be you know specifically

44:36

targeted uh by an air strike and you had

44:39

to be and there had to be some

44:40

precautions taken to minimize the

44:42

civilians that that you might be around

44:44

uh the IDF after October 7th uh got rid

44:47

of both of those precautions they said

44:48

any any Hamas member uh is is now able

44:52

to be targeted um by by an air strike

44:55

and civilian casual aties don't don't

44:57

matter in fact maximizing civilian

44:59

casualties uh seems to be a feature of

45:02

the program I'll just read from this if

45:04

you can put up the 972 magazine article

45:06

they they write during the early stages

45:08

of the war the Army gave sweeping

45:09

approval for officers to adopt

45:11

lavender's kill lists with no

45:13

requirement to thoroughly check why the

45:16

machine made those choices or to examine

45:18

the raw Intelligence on which they were

45:20

based One Source stated that human

45:22

Personnel often served only as a quote

45:24

rubber stamp for the machine's decisions

45:26

adding that normally they would

45:27

personally devote only about 20 seconds

45:29

to each Target before authorizing a

45:31

bombing just to make sure the lavender

45:33

marked Target is male this was despite

45:36

knowing that the system makes what are

45:38

regarded as errors in approximately 10%

45:40

of cases and is known to occasionally

45:43

Mark individuals who have merely a loose

45:45

connection to militant groups or no

45:46

connection at all moreover the Israeli

45:48

Army systematically attacked the

45:50

targeted individuals while they were in

45:52

their homes usually at night while their

45:55

whole families were present rather than

45:57

during the course of military activity

45:59

according to the sources this was

46:01

because from what they regarded as an

46:02

intelligence standpoint it was easier to

46:05

locate the individuals in their private

46:07

houses additional automated systems

46:10

including one called where's Daddy also

46:12

revealed here for the first time were

46:14

used specifically to track the targeted

46:17

individuals and Carry Out bombings when

46:19

they had entered their fam's residences

46:22

and a 972 argues that the reason that

46:25

you've seen so many women and children

46:27

killed uh is that they were identifying

46:31

men sometimes the and and something like

46:35

10 to 20% of uh men in Gaza are named

46:37

Muhammad like if you go through the

46:39

Ministry of Health list of casualties uh

46:42

many of them have same last names um

46:44

because they're from the same family so

46:46

they're using AI to identify a

46:49

particular man and then follow him to

46:51

his home and then killing him with a

46:53

bomb in his home often times this is an

46:55

apartment that is not does just have his

46:57

family sleeping there but also has many

46:59

other families sleeping there which is

47:00

where the we's daddy name comes for that

47:02

program they wait for them to be with

47:03

their families and they think it's

47:04

easier to bomb them in their homes

47:06

rather than try to fight them in the

47:07

field and where they're more difficult

47:08

to to find because the field like so how

47:11

could this be worse like TR try to try

47:14

to design a government that behaves in

47:18

most obvious counter is the numbers

47:19

don't support the idea that civilians

47:21

are being targeted in Mass uh it doesn't

47:24

even come close to it I've seen

47:26

estimates that any words like 9 to1 for

47:28

civilian to military death historically

47:29

in conflict and the idea that in the

47:31

Gaza Strip one of the most densely

47:33

populated places on the planet those

47:35

numbers right now are depending on who

47:37

estim go anywhere from 2.5 to1 to like 4

47:39

to one in terms of Civilian to uh

47:42

militant deaths so the idea that people

47:43

are being wiped out with Innocent family

47:45

members there just don't seem to be any

47:47

numbers at all to support that um

47:49

something that's also very frustrating

47:51

is Hamas engages in behavior that has

47:53

been documented by the UN by Amnesty

47:55

International by other

47:57

that is supposed to induce the death of

47:59

civilians I don't know why nobody seems

48:01

to ever care about this Hamas in the

48:03

Gaza Strip exclusively fights in

48:05

civilian clothes do you acknowledge that

48:07

I I'm not was not familiar with that

48:09

Hamas will fight from hospitals do you

48:11

acknowledge that they don't fired from

48:13

hospitals happen with the most recent

48:15

raid on alif let me let me okay so

48:17

you've actually gone no no no I'm going

48:19

to address this you're going to address

48:21

cuz you're not but so let me just get my

48:23

he said he doesn't think that they

48:27

he just said no he doesn't yeah but I

48:28

just want to go I just want to just for

48:29

people listening I guess um one of the

48:31

frustrating things about um asymmetrical

48:34

Warfare is that as law conflict has

48:36

evolved past the 90s the collapse of the

48:38

Soviet Union states are having to do

48:39

more and more fighting against non-state

48:41

actors which is posted a huge challenge

48:43

to the icj and the ICC in terms of how

48:45

he analyzes conflict and the reason why

48:46

it's such a challenge is because

48:48

international law only works if it

48:50

allows countries to effectively operate

48:52

so that countries will want to follow it

48:53

so international law tries to balance

48:55

for law of onct two very very things one

48:57

is the protection of orate combat

48:59

peoples people that shouldn't be killed

49:01

ever and then the other is a state's

49:03

ability to conduct Warfare because if

49:04

you deprive either of these if you don't

49:06

protect civilians everybody dies and if

49:08

you deprive a state of the ability to

49:09

defend itself nobody follows law of

49:10

armed conflict the issue with Hamas as

49:12

an asymmetrical opponent is every single

49:14

behavior that they engage in is meant to

49:16

induce maximum civilian Casualty that

49:19

means that they exclusively fight in

49:20

civilian uniforms it means that they

49:22

operate out of Civilian supposed to be

49:24

special protected areas like hospitals

49:26

the alifer recently is a good example of

49:27

that they booby trap uh corpses they

49:30

booby trap houses this happened a lot of

49:32

protective Edge in 2014 amesty

49:33

International reports show that there

49:35

was footage taken out of alifa Hospital

49:37

in 2008 Amnesty International did a

49:38

report on that that there was an

49:39

interrogation Center in there um and we

49:41

saw uh captured CCTV footage that showed

49:43

uh hostages being brought into Aliva

49:45

hospital um that every that uh Hamas

49:47

will store Munitions and they will fight

49:49

even from zones that are supposed to be

49:50

declared safe and they store ammunitions

49:52

in places like mosks or homes all of

49:54

these behaviors are designed from the

49:56

Hamas perspective to induce the maximum

49:58

amount of Civilian casualties and then

49:59

when it happens nobody has anything to

50:01

say with Hamas and everybody has

50:02

something to say with Israel why hasn't

50:03

Hamas by the way these are also

50:05

considered uh failures to uphold your

50:06

duty under international law why hasn't

50:08

Hamas tried to protect the civilian

50:09

population all those tunnels they built

50:11

they couldn't build one bomb shelter why

50:12

hasn't Hamas tried to set up a

50:13

humanitarian area why is it exclusively

50:15

on Israel and the International

50:17

Community and Hamas can't do any type of

50:18

collaboration or cooperation to do it

50:20

because they don't care because the goal

50:21

is to induce the maximum amount of

50:22

Civilian C just one tiny point if they

50:24

did build a bomb shelter for civilians

50:26

Israel vomit and say that look look

50:28

they're putting they're putting

50:29

civilians in the tel and if it would

50:31

happen that would be the end of the

50:32

conflict because if there is a civilian

50:34

bomb shelter built and there were no

50:36

homos mil and and Israel hit that then

50:39

it's over at that point who supports

50:42

Israel they're bombing entire

50:44

neighborhood being respon to the

50:47

hospital you've gone through a lengthy

50:48

record allow me to do the same actually

50:50

for just one second one of the things

50:52

that you had actually said recently I

50:53

think it's on the comedy seller podcast

50:55

is that it is is quite blatant to you

50:58

you said patently obvious that Israel is

51:01

doing everything it can to protect

51:02

civilians in Gaza or I don't think said

51:04

I think said more than any other country

51:05

ever has in the history of arm conflict

51:06

yes I think do we have have that oh

51:09

actually it turns out we do have that

51:10

all right it seems if you engage with it

51:13

honestly and I hate to say this very

51:14

partis when you engage with it honestly

51:15

it seems obvious like patently obvious

51:18

that Israel is doing everything they can

51:19

to minimize cilian casualties that it's

51:21

like undeniable because the numbers

51:23

would be so much different if they were

51:25

just indiscriminately bombing or carpet

51:27

bombing as everybody says so um but I

51:29

mean they still have to manage the pr

51:31

aspect because at the end of the day you

51:32

know perception is really the only thing

51:34

that matters in international

51:35

communities with other countries so

51:37

frankly the claim that Israel is doing

51:39

everything it can to minimize civilian

51:40

casualties is is by far the single most

51:43

absurd thing that I have heard Stephen

51:45

say period let me run through the you

51:48

would Target a soldier at his house at

51:50

night if that was your goal and with a

51:52

with a thing that you mentioned with

51:53

laender it's specifically yeah

51:54

specifically when they're at home but

51:55

beyond that if I can run through that

51:57

record because one second quick do you

51:59

stand by saying everything uh my the

52:02

more basically yeah the more the more

52:05

more than any other country ever has in

52:06

the history of all of arm conflict let's

52:08

run through the record human rights

52:10

organizations who are the objective

52:11

observers on the situations every single

52:13

one of them in every subsequent invasion

52:15

of Gaza including the current one talk

52:17

about Israel engaging in massive

52:18

indiscriminate bombing of Civilian areas

52:20

they talk about flattening entire

52:21

neighborhoods um they talk also about

52:24

deliberately killing civilians who pose

52:25

absolutely no threat to Israeli soldiers

52:27

they go through and describe these

52:29

incidents they raise them with Israeli

52:31

military the isra military says we

52:32

investigated and we saw that nobody no

52:34

nothing wrong happened and human rights

52:35

organizations's assessment of the way

52:36

that Israel conducts itself is that it's

52:38

completely in violation of international

52:40

law and that their self-accountability

52:41

is a complete sham it's not actually

52:44

serious and then you look at what

52:47

Israeli leaders themselves also say and

52:49

by the way that 972 magazine there was a

52:51

a article there was a one that came

52:54

before it as well in which they

52:55

described that israeli's policy in Gaza

52:59

is to basically shock the civilian

53:01

population by doing massive Devastation

53:03

in civilian areas as a means of putting

53:04

pressure on Hamas and that included an

53:06

example that they listed toppling a

53:08

high-rise Residential Building without

53:10

warning on top of the people who are

53:11

inside it so that's name for and that's

53:14

yeah that's based on power targets as

53:16

power Target yeah and that's based on

53:17

interviews with Israeli Intelligence

53:19

Officers about Israeli policy in Gaza

53:21

and it's long been stated Israeli policy

53:23

frankly if you look at uh people like G

53:27

island Israeli General who later became

53:28

the National Security adviser in Israel

53:30

they talk about the policy being to

53:32

punish the civilians and to induce so

53:34

much suffering among them in huge

53:35

numbers to put pressure on groups like

53:37

Hamas and Hezbollah and this is not new

53:39

here by the way during yeah during the

53:42

2006 invasion of Lebanon there is an

53:44

incident in which Israel dropped a

53:46

million cluster bombs all over towns and

53:48

villages in Lebanon prompting a high

53:50

ranking Israeli Commander to say quote

53:52

this is you can find it on onat what we

53:54

did was insane and monstrous we covered

53:57

entire towns and villages with cluster

53:59

bombs that's how they describe what

54:00

Israel actually carried out at the time

54:02

and then you look at current Israeli

54:04

statements right now from all of this

54:06

Benjamin Netanyahu has been quoted

54:08

saying in Israeli press again talking

54:10

about what the strategy is with with Ron

54:12

durmer and he said the strategy is to

54:14

thin the population in Gaza down to a

54:16

minimum that's what he actually wants to

54:18

do he uses genocidal language like the

54:20

amalik which is a quote from the Bible

54:22

about murdering the children and babies

54:25

of your en the he the idea that it's

54:27

exclusively used to describe animals is

54:29

not true but and you have then Israeli

54:32

soldiers themselves so in case there's a

54:34

misinterpretation of that celebrating

54:36

that they're going to kill Palestinians

54:38

uh Palestinian civilians they're

54:39

chanting about the AMC and how we're

54:40

going to destroy them and you have

54:42

people who are actually posting videos

54:44

on themselves talking about we're

54:45

killing them by the tens of thousands

54:46

isn't that great so that's the rhetoric

54:48

of Israeli soldiers themselves on the

54:50

ground then they're caught on tape

54:52

shooting children in the head when they

54:55

posed absolutely no threat it happened

54:56

in Janine even in the West Bank during

54:58

this current crisis where you saw two

55:00

young children being shot in the head um

55:02

without with basically very obviously

55:04

posing no threat you saw in Gaza a

55:07

grandmother holding the hand of a young

55:09

child while carrying a white flag and

55:11

they shoot her dead while the child is

55:13

is holding her hand and the child freaks

55:15

out and everybody else runs away you

55:16

have a pattern that is documented on

55:18

video of these kinds of crimes you have

55:20

American doctors who visit Gaza and talk

55:23

about the horrors they see in hospital

55:25

how there's countless children who come

55:27

in with single sniper bullet wounds to

55:29

the Head they can't keep track of how

55:31

many of these are coming in and you have

55:33

the president of the United States

55:34

describing Joe Biden describing Israeli

55:37

bombings of Gaza as indiscriminate the

55:39

idea that you can look at this mountain

55:40

of evidence between what human rights

55:42

organizations are reporting what Israeli

55:44

leaders are saying what Israeli soldiers

55:46

are posting of themselves and what the

55:48

American government's assessment of that

55:49

bombing is and to say they're doing

55:51

everything they can to minimize civilian

55:52

casualties is just so thoroughly

55:54

dishonest on behalf of an apartheid

55:57

government that is committing atrocities

55:58

before all of us it's just it's it's

56:00

mindboggling Steve you honestly would

56:02

have to be either naive to believe that

56:04

or dishonest and you just don't strike

56:06

me as a naive guy you're a very smart

56:08

guy I don't understand how you can

56:09

actually say that it's funny because the

56:10

entire like Yap you just did is

56:12

completely destroyed by a single

56:13

question how do you explain the numbers

56:15

what how do you explain the ratio of

56:17

even what Hamas has claimed mil 70%

56:21

women and children how do you explain

56:23

that women and children hold I'm sorry

56:25

because for children we're saying 18 and

56:27

under as opposed to the traditionally

56:29

fighting age is what we would usually

56:30

talk about these conflicts but

56:31

everything palan are special rules not

56:35

I'm

56:36

asking how do you explain the fact that

56:38

even Hamas admitted I believe that I

56:40

think it was 7500 or 8,000 of the people

56:42

killed I don't remember what their exact

56:43

numb I have an analysis from March 12th

56:45

so this is from just security as of this

56:47

date the IDF reported 29,000 air strikes

56:49

in Gaza at that date the number of

56:51

reported civilian deaths in Gaza was

56:53

roughly

56:53

29,200 the number of Hamas Fighters

56:55

killed in action has been claimed by the

56:57

IDF and Hamas both without evidence the

56:58

IDF claims 12,000 Fighters killed while

57:01

Hamas claims 6,000 Fighters killed so we

57:03

can look at those numbers given the

57:04

demographic data from the health

57:06

Ministry out of 29,200 deaths about

57:08

9,700 were men and the rest were women

57:10

and children if the IDF claim is true

57:12

this is equivalent to every man being

57:13

killed in Gaza being a Hamas fighter and

57:15

several thousand women Andor children

57:17

being Hamas Fighters This is extremely

57:19

unlikely but to be extremely

57:20

conservative I will use the IDF reported

57:21

Hamas casualty numbers 12,000 you give a

57:24

lower bound on civilian deaths in in

57:26

addition we need to subtract deaths that

57:28

would normally happen for this

57:29

population so about 4,900 deaths per

57:31

year on average equivalent to about

57:33

1,800 in a 4.5 month period this gives

57:35

us a minimum number of Civilian or

57:37

deaths of approximately 15,700 based on

57:40

29,000 air strikes that leads to an

57:41

approximate an average of 54 civilians

57:44

killed per 100 attacks and just lastly

57:46

this analysis goes on to say despite the

57:48

alarm over the high rate of Civilian

57:49

deaths in raqa one finds the minimum

57:51

equivalent in Gaza 54 civilians killed

57:54

in 100 attacks is eight times greater

57:56

than the air wars based estimate and 32

57:58

times greater than the dod estimate and

58:00

recall that that 52 numers a lower Bound

58:02

for the Gaza ratio is likely far higher

58:04

than this so Stephen do you dispute the

58:07

validity of those numbers what what was

58:09

the ratio of Fighters on the lower bound

58:11

what was the ratio of Fighters to

58:12

civilians there did they say did they

58:14

say Hamas claimed 6,000 yeah so of of

58:17

and the death PLL at that time was how

58:18

much 29,000 about 9,000 men total so

58:22

6,000 and it was 29,000 total deaths

58:24

29,200 total death L 9,700 were men so

58:27

that so if you're taking the the that's

58:29

the Hamas reported number you're at one

58:32

militant to four civilians and that's

58:34

and that's for the Hamas reported number

58:36

how can the how can the ratio be so

58:39

horrible Israel is on a genal

58:41

indiscriminate campaign against Hamas

58:44

how can that possibly be the case

58:45

they're doing it again in slow motion to

58:48

give plausible deniability that this is

58:49

happening it's obvious look they've

58:51

destroyed 80% of the building theyit

58:54

that number is true displaced 90% of the

58:57

population can you name any other

58:58

conflict in which you displac 90% of the

59:00

the civilian population no because

59:01

usually they just destroyed them you

59:03

think in Dres they told the civilians to

59:04

flee do you think in the Tokyo fire

59:05

bombing told the Civ to leave for

59:07

Nagasaki and hoshima Did we tell the

59:08

civilians to leave can you hold on can

59:10

you acknowledge what you just said was

59:11

incredibly stupid that no they

59:12

don't tell civilians to leave first

59:14

normally they just kill them because we

59:17

need he an because because he think

59:19

because he thinks this such a clever

59:20

line let me explain something to you

59:22

he's not going no I'm going to

59:23

acknowledge it I'm going to acknowledge

59:24

it yes they told civilians to leave and

59:27

then they Dro massive 2,000 bombs on the

59:30

safe zones that they told the civilians

59:32

to Safe

59:33

Zone whatever there been countless

59:36

incidents of them dropping now you're

59:38

just lying I'm not I looked it up you

59:40

look up all the data on all the St four

59:42

hours of rad they make safe per day

59:44

guarante Trel

59:46

York there's a New York Times

59:48

investigation and there's an NBC

59:49

investigation both of them document the

59:51

fact that Israel is bombing safe zones

59:52

where they tell civilians to flee and

59:54

Israel ad Israel ad hold on just is

59:57

admitted at CNN that intelligence

59:59

indication that these places were safe

60:00

houses for commanders of the RF of a

60:02

brigade of the Hamas teror organization

60:04

this was back in December about bombing

60:05

areas that were supposed to be

60:07

evacuation routes evacuation routes are

60:10

not safe zones there's been one official

60:13

declared should Hamas not operate from

60:15

there I mean we're talking again good

60:17

question there's one zone I wish I could

60:19

remember is it Al it's Al MAA something

60:22

uh it's the beach uh west of uh conun

60:24

whatever nobody knows it uh the it's

60:27

this is the only singular they told

60:28

people to go to kanun it be safe there

60:30

they they did not they absolutely did

60:32

not declare that kanun would be a safe

60:33

zone no that's absolutely why they tell

60:35

people to go there well initially

60:36

because most of the operations were nor

60:37

concentrate them and kill them there if

60:39

why else would they say go there if

60:41

you're a pal so are we going to see are

60:43

we going to see 20 30 40 50,000 deaths

60:45

soon then are we about to see like

60:46

100,000 Palestinians go up and smoke

60:48

that's what they're doing they're

60:48

hurting them all to one C City so they

60:50

can blow them all upit but I thought I

60:52

thought we said they were going for

60:52

plausible deniability now they're hting

60:54

them to one giant Kill Zone and blow

60:55

them all up yes and now they're going to

60:57

tell them that it's time to relocate

60:58

because we're going to invade Rafa and

60:59

send them to places where there is no

61:01

food water or shelter and have

61:03

them and death like they have been for

61:05

the past five months yes it's going to

61:07

be ongoing killing rate killing them by

61:09

the tens of thousands and saying oops

61:11

it's just War Gaza is unlivable anymore

61:13

too bad it can't support Palestinian

61:14

life people are starving it's just all

61:16

an accident that they're giving an

61:18

accident it's crazy that the numbers are

61:21

so poor for a country that could kill so

61:22

many more people but they're constantly

61:24

they're doing things that no other

61:26

country do you acknowledge that no other

61:27

country does leaflets phone calls to

61:30

buildings uh roof knocking Sirens you

61:33

get that no one no other organizations

61:35

you're not going to answer that cleared

61:37

MOS countries do it

61:40

yeah before we went into literally

61:42

interrupt me to tell me I'm not going to

61:43

answer something I'm trying

61:45

to saying you were saying no country has

61:48

done anything like roof knockings and

61:49

leafless and all that and when you look

61:51

at what human rights organizations say

61:52

about these they say they're completely

61:53

pointless because there's nowhere for

61:55

these civilians to go that is safe so

61:56

you can drop a leaflet that's it's it's

61:58

it's a game and right and like the fact

62:00

that people like you fall for it is is

62:01

just kind of really embarrassing you

62:04

have no explanation for the ratio for

62:05

the one to four on the low they tell

62:07

civilians to flee because here we're

62:09

going to be so nice and make sure that

62:10

you don't die and then when they flee

62:11

they kill them as they're fleeing or

62:12

they kill them wherever they numbers are

62:13

so disproportionate if you were a

62:15

Palestinian what would you do if you

62:17

lived in probably go south to the uh

62:19

whatever the beach was I wish I had the

62:21

name of it right now but there's there's

62:22

been one singularly declared safe area

62:24

and it's that Beach um how many how many

62:27

Palestines do you want to crowd into

62:28

that whatever that small Beach I gu one

62:30

point however many million how many

62:31

bathrooms are there how much water is

62:32

there you it's better than getting blown

62:35

up by a bomb if you want the war to stop

62:36

how about just have Hamas leave hostages

62:38

or is or Israel could just stop bombing

62:40

God why is stop attacking enemy that

62:42

committed the largest terror attack per

62:44

capita in the history of the entire

62:45

country it's a ridiculous double

62:46

standard hold on you think it's

62:48

reasonable to tell Israel heyas I know

62:50

that you guys like did a bit a little

62:52

bit of a large terrorism against us and

62:53

have been by the way which is violation

62:56

of international law indiscriminately

62:57

launching Rockets uh for decades from

62:59

this and every single one of those is a

63:01

violation of international law because

63:02

those are by definition indiscriminate

63:03

which by definition fail the distinction

63:06

uh principle that is essential to law of

63:07

armed conflict one of the three PRS wait

63:09

no no wait so you're saying that Israel

63:11

needs to allow Hamas to stay there who's

63:13

been breaking international law of arm

63:15

conf for 20 years as opposed to Hamas

63:17

allowing the Israeli government to stay

63:18

there when they're breaking

63:19

international law for even longer than

63:20

that and I want to put a fine point on

63:21

that seriously no honestly I want to get

63:23

an answer to that why is it that you

63:25

think that the isra government having

63:26

committed all the atrocities that they

63:27

the Israeli government is a democracy

63:29

that can be reasoned with their

63:30

neighbors have reasoned with them people

63:32

have signed peace agreements and people

63:33

have reached agreements with them the

63:34

Palestinians have not and there's a

63:36

Reason by the way which you will never

63:38

recognize why all of the surrounding

63:39

Arab states have abandoned the

63:40

Palestinians too because their history

63:42

has been one of violence that first

63:43

they've been encouraged by the

63:44

surrounding Nations and used by them and

63:46

then now they've been abandoned once the

63:47

other nations used that's a racist anti

63:49

Palestinian racist what happened in the

63:50

7s why did the Palestinians get kick out

63:52

joint in the why pal assassinate the

63:54

Jordan King

63:58

why with the palan he's racist Omar when

64:02

he talks about Palestinians nobody likes

64:04

them and nobody wants them and nobody

64:05

whatever yes absolutely that's a racist

64:07

description can let mear this this this

64:10

distinction between like there's a

64:11

category people who are racist category

64:13

people who are not I I think that's a

64:14

simplistic thing what he just described

64:16

is a racist stereotype there's

64:18

absolutely no question about I'm

64:21

fact it is to a lot of people that are

64:23

pro Palestinian I understand history is

64:24

like traumatizing understand that the

64:26

Egyptian dictatorship is collaborating

64:28

with Israel to suppress anything that is

64:30

Muslim Brotherhood Affiliated and that's

64:31

why the reason they're collaborating

64:32

against Gaza collaborating with the with

64:34

the Israeli government when they locked

64:36

all the gazans in the Gaza ser and

64:37

didn't let any of them leave yeah

64:40

okay Steve you do this thing constantly

64:43

where you bring up random anecdotes that

64:44

are completely irrelevant to anything

64:45

that what I'm to I'm sorry you I'm sorry

64:47

the reason why that wasn't random is

64:48

because you applied today that the

64:50

dictatorship in Egypt first of all you

64:51

said dictatorship very loaded yes Egypt

64:53

had a history of dictatorship so you're

64:54

implying that they're coll

64:59

collaborating way and even from

65:02

47 when Egypt had control of the Gaza

65:05

Strip the Palestinians were still locked

65:06

in that Gaza Strip let let's be clear

65:09

about let me be clear about something

65:11

right now this rhetoric I'm going to let

65:14

it go for now the idea is looking at all

65:16

the Arab surrounding Arab governments

65:17

who are collaborating with Israel as

65:18

sign that they hate Palestinians when

65:20

you do opinion polling in any of these

65:22

countries all of them including in Saudi

65:23

Arabia the overwhelming majority of the

65:25

population wants to cut off any talk

65:28

they want to isolate Israel

65:29

diplomatically they don't want to deal

65:30

with them the people of the region

65:32

absolutely oppose what Israel is doing

65:34

to Palestinians and the fact that you

65:35

can site a handful of governments in the

65:36

surrounding area who all effectively

65:38

belong to the US orbit and operate under

65:40

and get tremendous privilege and

65:42

financial privilege and security

65:43

privilege for collaborating with the

65:44

United States and and to try to paint

65:46

that as some sort of validation that

65:48

they have anti-palestinian sentiment I

65:49

think is is is completely ridiculous and

65:51

ignorant of the Dynamics that actually

65:53

exist in the region a region that I grew

65:54

up in by the way

65:56

what you have I grew up in Kuwait Jordan

65:59

Yemen Oman and the United Arab Emirates

66:00

and I visited Palestine on multiple

66:02

occasions gotcha wait you grew up in

66:03

Kuwait in what years was that when

66:05

Arafat was supporting Saddam Hussein I

66:08

was born in Kuwait in 1982 and I lived

66:11

there until that war and yes when Arafat

66:13

made statements in support of Saddam

66:15

Hussein that became the reason why many

66:16

Palestinians could not go back to which

66:18

was a really big deal too which is also

66:20

funny because those Oso courts we point

66:21

to Israel not being a good partner for

66:22

peace the only reason why those ooso

66:24

courts were so horrible is because arat

66:25

was desperately looking for a way back

66:26

into Palestinian popularity after suppor

66:28

saying when he speaking of Oslo yes and

66:31

you know what was also happening and the

66:32

reason why Oslo happened is because

66:33

while Arafat was looking for a way to

66:35

get validation as the leader of

66:36

Palestinians and come back Israel was

66:38

dealing with the fact that there is a

66:39

Palestinian Uprising the first inala

66:41

overwhelmingly nonviolent in which

66:43

Palestinians were doing Civil

66:45

Disobedience sometimes throwing rocks at

66:46

soldiers and Israel was brutalizing them

66:48

for year after year after they were they

66:51

killed so many of them that the Israeli

66:53

officials started being concerned about

66:54

the the Optics of it so they said don't

66:56

kill them beat them up and break their

66:58

arms instead and what you ended up with

67:01

I'm so curious I'm so much more what you

67:03

ended up with allow me to finish you

67:04

have to let me finish my thought every

67:06

now and then you end up with murder the

67:08

children I understand we get they

67:09

started beating up Palestinians

67:11

protesters and seeing them brutalizing

67:13

them and breaking their bones on video

67:15

and that ended up being an even bigger

67:16

disaster for Israel and they did not

67:18

know what to do with that civil uprising

67:20

of people who wanted to be free from

67:21

occupation and so they struck a deal

67:24

with Arafat and brought him in to

67:26

suppress the in on the fake and false

67:29

promise that they might Grant

67:30

Palestinians estate Arafat fell for it

67:32

and it was all a sham made to suck the

67:35

energy out of a genuine Palestinian

67:37

Uprising for freedom and to turn it into

67:38

the fraudulent Oslo process in which

67:40

Israel Had cover to expand more and more

67:43

settlements and entrench the occupation

67:44

under the pretense of Peace that's the

67:46

history of what happened so what could

67:48

Israel have done after October 7th that

67:50

would have been and I don't I don't want

67:51

to limp you into this Camp some people

67:52

said it's about proportionality what

67:54

could Israel have done after October 7th

67:55

that would have either been proportional

67:57

or given some of the legitimate points

67:59

that Stephen made about a densely

68:01

populated area where you have a military

68:03

and a civilian population crowded into

68:06

hospitals Etc what could Israel have

68:08

done what should they have done after

68:09

October 7th that would have been ajust

68:11

response and I promis I'll address that

68:13

directly but just on the context that

68:14

you just described before that you have

68:16

a situation in which there is it's it's

68:19

impossible to have a situation which

68:20

Hamas is fighting not in civilian areas

68:22

I mean when you talk about the

68:23

difference in power one side has a full

68:25

ledged military has Air Force has tanks

68:28

Hamas can't just go out the field and

68:29

confront them directly so they they

68:33

they you'd have to let me finish my

68:35

sentence every now and then Stephen

68:36

seriously like just try in the words of

68:39

Norman felstein try to have the

68:40

self-possession to just listen a little

68:42

bit more and in the style of nor seem be

68:43

wrong about everything yeah keep going

68:46

um you have a situation in which the

68:48

balance of power makes it so that those

68:49

militants have to effectively use

68:51

gorilla tactics and gorilla tactics

68:53

involve hiding in civilian areas that's

68:54

how that actually um that happens and if

68:58

you're really upset about that and you

68:59

think that that's a real problem by all

69:01

means arm Hamas the way you arm Israel

69:03

and then they can have military on

69:04

military war and we can spare the

69:05

Palestinian civilians if you think

69:06

that's really what's the underlying

69:08

motivation but of course nobody would

69:09

ever consider that we only arm the

69:11

criminals on one side with massive

69:13

armaments now on the question of what

69:16

Israel should have done there's two

69:18

separate questions that often get

69:19

conflated there's the question of is it

69:21

a just War to begin with and then

69:22

there's the question of proportion and

69:24

you can imagine if people in Gaza were

69:26

free and Israel was not controlling

69:29

their lives and deciding how much food

69:30

they get to eat and whether they can go

69:31

and come back and then some kind of

69:33

attack happened you might expect some

69:34

kind of Israeli retaliation and then the

69:36

only conversation would be about

69:37

proportionality are they doing it in a

69:39

way that is that is defensible and what

69:41

they're currently doing is obviously not

69:43

defensible to be devastating the

69:44

civilian population in order to thin

69:47

that population by the words of the

69:49

Israel's leader right now there's no

69:51

source that by the way which is it comes

69:52

from the red line it comes from isra

69:55

repor on

69:57

internal isra isra media when the

70:01

population has always had a calie

70:02

surplus even even the diet part calorie

70:04

Surplus they literally have that's why

70:06

when the famine started when all the

70:07

people were moved um I believe it was

70:09

unra that made the statement that this

70:10

is a region that isn't never experienced

70:14

before and that's also why Fon got mad

70:16

because if you s really wait these

70:17

people are starving by what metric you

70:19

can't that's what's so infuriating

70:20

Stephen is that you want to start

70:21

counting calories and try to discover

70:23

whether they have a surplus or or not

70:24

when you're missing the fact that Israel

70:26

getting to decide what food gets into

70:28

Gaza is itself outrageous one people

70:30

does not get to control whether another

70:32

side gets to have cookies for their

70:33

children potato chips or sodas you don't

70:36

get to do that that's a level of

70:37

dominance

70:38

OPAC but you're not capable of having it

70:41

because you w't even admit why the

70:42

blockade exists so you don't even

70:43

deserve to be in that you want to Adit

70:45

what do you want him to Adit why why is

70:47

there a in Gaza you tell me why is there

70:49

a blockade in Gaza when you look at the

70:51

fact that Israel is preventing cookies

70:52

from going into Gaza you know that it's

70:54

not motivated prevented from going in

70:56

Rockets fued with yeah with cookies yeah

70:59

with sugar and fertilizer yes that's how

71:01

they

71:02

made we're going to deny Palestinians

71:04

and Gaza sugar because it might be

71:06

used back in because more

71:09

sated he's not going I want to be clear

71:11

another time another thing you're not

71:12

going to admit why does the blockade

71:13

exist it's literally just

71:15

because to kill the am Fighters breathe

71:18

air to maybe Israel can restrict air

71:20

from going into Gaza to make sure that

71:22

he saying then the burden should be on

71:23

Hamas not to use Palestinians have no

71:26

agency just rape is is the language of

71:28

the oppressed they can't help themselves

71:31

civilian get military ones you don't

71:33

punish civilian populations

71:34

indiscriminately shooting tens of

71:36

thousands of rockets decade after decade

71:38

into Israel like what does population

71:40

like like like selling some of the

71:42

humanitarian food back population

71:44

digging up tunnels of of of water pipes

71:47

and using them to Fashion Rockets all

71:49

the international a bil tel tunel Sten

71:52

did you say that Hamas is turning

71:55

cookies into missiles my understanding

71:57

the reason for the U the reason for the

71:59

restricting of sugar- based products was

72:00

that the first generation I think they

72:02

were called castom Rockets were built in

72:04

really crude shops using combinations of

72:06

fertilizer and sugars that they would

72:08

use you know what the primary component

72:10

of Hamas Hamas explosives is now uh I

72:13

think I'm pretty sure now they use more

72:14

sophisticated stuff but I don't know you

72:15

tell me unexploded Israeli bombs because

72:18

they've dropped so many over the last

72:21

decade I doubt that's true I'm sure they

72:23

do 10 to with a 10 to 20% failure rate

72:26

Hamas then digs them up the theine 105s

72:29

that uh that you see uh you know blowing

72:32

up all these Israeli

72:36

tanks but I doubt the majority of them

72:38

are there's I'm sure there some amount

72:40

just to reate so than cookies

72:43

tell going I'm going to tell you why the

72:46

blockade exists and the Reason by the

72:48

way why it includes Banning cookies and

72:50

soda pop and potato chips yes the oros

72:52

aren't going into the gun no I'm sure

72:54

it's it's very funny children the

72:55

ability to eat chocolates and toys

72:57

because they are Palestinian and not

72:58

Israeli that's just so incredibly

73:00

incredibly trivial incredibly emal and

73:02

and potato it's working we're two we're

73:05

two more viry signal away from free

73:06

Palestinian people keep going it's you

73:08

trivializing if it was the other way

73:10

around if Hamas was imposing a Siege on

73:12

Israel in which Israeli children were

73:13

not allowed to do any of that stuff you

73:15

would not be sitting here making making

73:16

L of it it would not be trivial to you

73:18

because you understand that Israelis are

73:19

human beings and their children deserve

73:21

to eat potatoes potato chips Sor hold on

73:24

Jewish people live in Arab countries

73:26

around the

73:27

world they all how many when we talk

73:29

about the knock the expulsion OFW how

73:31

many Jew lived in the West Bank after 48

73:33

thank you thank you for the deflection I

73:35

didn't deflect I'm just answering your

73:36

your your let him answer about why the

73:38

black aade exists he's not he's got to

73:39

do the 52 different talking point

73:41

blockade exists oh my God okay the

73:42

blockade exists because they want to

73:44

punish the civilian population in Gaza

73:46

as a means of putting pressure on Hamas

73:48

they're saying as long as we have a

73:49

government in Gaza that does not play

73:51

ball with Israel the way the Palestinian

73:53

Authority plays ball with Israel and the

73:54

West Bank the civilian population is

73:56

going to suffer as a means of putting

73:57

pressure on them and getting somebody

73:58

else to to be in power the evidence for

74:00

that is overwhelming children's toys

74:03

were not allowed in at the beginning of

74:05

the blockade and when Israel came under

74:06

intense pressure under the futil after

74:08

the futil incident a bunch of activists

74:10

tried to basically Force medicines to be

74:12

delivered into incident there were two

74:14

of five of the ships were empty and they

74:16

were aggressive ships that were designed

74:18

to fight against the IDF when they

74:19

landed you realize that footage is

74:20

available there's 100 some people on the

74:22

deck with chairs throwing Israeli

74:24

soldiers over yeah and shift weapons and

74:27

everything

74:28

too I know well that was all they could

74:30

bring from turkey with them I guess they

74:31

were inspecting the boats but those were

74:33

not peaceful activist ships and if you

74:35

any of the reports if you open more than

74:37

a figlin book and read what actually

74:38

happened or watch any of the footage

74:39

actually

74:40

happen were they part of the fighters or

74:43

were they listen to yourself listen to

74:45

Listen to myself what you can watch the

74:46

videos there were people who yes fought

74:49

back when Israel bordered their ship in

74:51

an act of piracy in international why

74:53

Israel border the ship because they

74:54

don't want get to Gaza there you go

74:56

because there's a blockade and because

74:58

they announc don't get to announce they

74:59

don't get to impose that blockade they

75:01

absolutely do no no more than Hamas gets

75:03

to impose a blockade on Israel this is

75:04

ridiculous of course they don't get to

75:06

decide what ships get to go by the end

75:09

here he's saying that the blockade

75:10

exists because Jews are evil to no he's

75:12

there intentionally that's a Despicable

75:14

thing to say I'm not say anything about

75:15

Jews I'm talking about the Israeli

75:16

government policy being AB second were

75:20

submersibles or weapons brought in VIA

75:22

that uh via the water into the Gaza

75:23

Strip did that happen What talk say that

75:25

one more time were there weapons that

75:26

were shipped into the Gaza Strip via the

75:28

Mediterranean and plenty of weapons were

75:29

shipped into Israel as well oh that's

75:31

interesting so so there

75:34

was why is it that Egypt has been a

75:36

partner with Israel in that blockade

75:38

since it's Inception as well I've

75:39

already explained to you why the

75:40

Egyptian government is interested in for

75:42

20 years they've just been evil okay

75:44

okay everybody is is a this is it's this

75:46

is consistent at least with the history

75:47

that everybody is collaborators with the

75:49

west and and governments that are

75:52

transpar the

75:55

the Egyptian dictators

75:58

everybody say something I just honestly

76:00

there's one thing that I think is really

76:01

really important this you know just

76:02

saying that Jews are evil it's such a

76:05

Despicable line and let me explain why

76:07

anti-Semitism is a very very serious and

76:09

Rising problem in the country in many

76:11

other places around the world especially

76:12

in the Trump years we've seen these

76:14

shootings that have happened at

76:14

synagogues and everything like that not

76:16

middle

76:17

e and you have a situation in which

76:21

Israel's Defenders constantly try to

76:22

conflate those things is that you ignore

76:24

the fact that there is a significant

76:26

portion of the progressive Young

76:28

American Jewish population that is

76:29

opposed to Israeli policies and every

76:31

time he criticize Israeli policy people

76:32

say oh you're attacking Jews and that's

76:34

exactly what you just did and it's not

76:36

just harmful to people like me who get

76:37

smeared by that accusation completely

76:40

baseless and and really ugly and and

76:42

detestable probably more true know I

76:44

think but that's yeah of Omar thank

76:47

thank you thank you for that that

76:48

wonderful speculation um but it's also

76:51

actually harmful to Jewish communities

76:54

themselves that are trying to protect

76:55

themselves from anti-Semitism to

76:56

constantly trivialize that charge that

76:58

you throw it around at anybody who is

77:00

critical of Israeli policy anybody who

77:02

thinks that Palestinians are human

77:03

beings who deserve to have rights you

77:05

water that charge down so much when you

77:06

let them around that real anti-semites

77:08

get more room to breathe and operate

77:11

because that chart doesn't mean anything

77:12

so even if you enjoy smearing people

77:15

like me and people who defend

77:15

Palestinians that's fine but if you have

77:17

any part of you that actually cares

77:19

about Jewish people in this country I

77:21

would strongly advise you to stop

77:22

throwing that smear around at people

77:24

because okay I'll do my virtue signal

77:26

since you did yours um I got asked an

77:28

interesting question on my way up here

77:29

um from the is it Max Max producer Mac

77:33

not or not Max Mac he asked me why I was

77:36

so interested in this conflict and one

77:38

of the things that I think is so sad is

77:40

I think of all the things that I've ever

77:41

looked at my entire life this is one

77:42

where you can pick and choose facts from

77:44

one side and you can build the most

77:45

compelling anti- Palestinian argument or

77:47

you can build the most compelling

77:48

anti-israeli argument and I don't think

77:50

I've ever seen anything where you can

77:51

have such a one-sided telling of the

77:53

history um as I have for this particular

77:55

conflict I think the really sad thing

77:57

here is that I think that there are

77:59

really good criticisms that can be made

78:00

of Israel I think there are really good

78:01

criticism you can make of their past

78:02

policy and I think that the story of the

78:04

Palestinian is an incredibly empathetic

78:06

one I think that there are reasons why

78:08

um you could support uh violence in 47

78:10

violence in 48 Wars in 67 um I think you

78:12

can support all of these things from a

78:14

really empathetic understanding place

78:15

but the issue is that both sides are so

78:17

invested in telling their story and

78:19

making money and making videos and

78:21

making whatever off of their particular

78:22

side of things that you never will never

78:25

ever ever ever have that conversation so

78:28

for instance uh this is why identifying

78:30

root causes is so important uh when we

78:32

talk about the blockade the blockade

78:34

exists because during the second inata

78:36

there was a lot of Weaponry that came in

78:38

to Gaza from the Mediterranean and from

78:40

Egypt this is a problem that Egypt

78:42

recognized a problem that Israel

78:43

recognized that's why the blockade

78:44

existed especially after uh the

78:47

Palestinian Authority was not able to

78:48

bring Hamas under control and Hamas

78:50

gained control of that region Israel

78:51

said well this we're going to on

78:53

point on point I don't want to interrupt

78:54

you

78:55

there's one thing so when before the

78:57

flua incident they were not allowing

78:59

certain food items from going in and

79:01

children's toys 200 right we're talking

79:04

yeah yeah no but just I want you to

79:05

explain to me and then after that

79:06

incident and Israel came under pressure

79:07

they started allowing a little bit more

79:08

humanitarian stuff to go into Gaza is

79:11

that because Hamas stopped being a

79:12

threat to Israel or is that because

79:14

those humanitarian goods are actually

79:15

not a threat and Israel did not give a

79:16

about them anyway apart from

79:18

wanting to punish my guess would be is

79:19

probably because the Israeli

79:20

restrictions were too much and they

79:22

probably could have calmed the down

79:23

right now Israel is in the position it's

79:25

in because Israel thinks that they can

79:27

maintain an indefinite status quo and

79:29

more or less slowly Annex the West Bank

79:31

that's Israel's goal the problem with

79:33

this conflict has always been that

79:34

Israel wants to fight forever because

79:36

the longer they fight the more of the

79:37

West Bank they get to Annex the only

79:38

reason the Abraham Accords happened was

79:40

because it was to Stave off annexation

79:42

of the West Bank and the problem is that

79:44

while Israel wants to continue fighting

79:46

to gain more and more people like you

79:47

have deluded Palestinians and think if

79:49

they fight they can gain more and more

79:50

too only one only one side pal whatever

79:53

that means okay one side conflict what

79:56

does it mean to you Palestinian there a

79:59

lot of people that became Palestinian

80:00

after uh depending on what the conflict

80:02

is so I don't know what that means I

80:03

don't really care that much um the the

80:06

the idea that the idea that both sides

80:08

can continue to fight only serves one

80:11

side and that's the Israeli side the

80:12

longer the Palestinians continue to

80:13

fight the more the Israelis are going to

80:14

G because the reality is is the Arab

80:16

states around them are bored they don't

80:18

want to fight the leadership doesn't

80:18

want to fight anymore they're not going

80:19

to they did at one point which is I

80:21

think the most tragic thing is that

80:22

Palestinians were a tool of the

80:24

surrounding states to fight with Israel

80:26

and that's the most they ever cared

80:27

about that's

80:28

why that's why if you go to these

80:30

surrounding countries and you ask that's

80:32

crazy there are so many Palestinian

80:33

refugees here I wonder why they don't

80:35

ever like take any of them in as like

80:37

actual citizens and the reason why is

80:39

because in the Arab states you're not

80:40

allowed to they don't give citizenship

80:42

to those people because they use them as

80:43

a tool to fight with Israel and that's

80:45

why they're not even allowed to do it

80:46

they're they're banned from actually

80:48

giving citizenship to end these

80:49

Palestinian so even the whole Refugee

80:50

crisis is inflated more than it should

80:52

be but the issue is that when you look

80:54

at these sides and you go to criticize

80:55

the policies okay I I bring it back to

80:57

the blockade that BL that blockade

80:58

existed because weapons were coming into

81:00

the Gaza Strip uh via the ocean via the

81:03

land routes so if that's the reason why

81:05

the blockade came in here's I think that

81:07

you can make an incredibly powerful

81:08

argument that listen Netanyahu if you

81:10

want to destroy Hamas that's fine but

81:12

one of the conditions of eliminating

81:13

Hamas has to be the lifting of the

81:15

blockade because with Hamas gone your

81:17

justification for the blockade is

81:19

completely and totally non-existent in

81:20

my world in your world the blockade

81:22

never leaves because the only reason

81:23

it's there is to punish Palestinian

81:25

citizens so if you're constantly

81:26

screaming at a government hey you need

81:27

to take this blockade away because you

81:29

just hate Palestinian why would they

81:30

ever remove it there's there's

81:31

absolutely no desire to there's no

81:33

reason to why would they but if the if

81:35

the argument is well we said that the

81:36

blockade existed because weapons were

81:37

going into a hostile Administration well

81:39

now that that hostile Administration has

81:40

gone and we allowed you to remove it at

81:42

Great cost both to infrastructure and

81:43

civilian life well now we can say hey

81:45

they're gone you have to lift the

81:46

blockade now there's no justification

81:47

for it so we have a real analysis of

81:49

what's going on we can Levy legitimate

81:50

criticisms we can look for legitimate

81:52

Solutions but if the arguments are

81:53

delusional that Israel is here

81:55

indiscriminately murdering tons of

81:56

people because they're evil or because

81:58

they hate Jews or or they hate

81:59

Palestinians or hate Arabs or whatever

82:01

or they're racist or islamophobic

82:02

there's no solution to be had because

82:04

because in your world the hatred runs so

82:05

deep it's intractable Crystal's lipstick

82:07

just fell over that's all it was Panic

82:10

so this is It's funny some bits of that

82:11

narrative actually were kind of like

82:12

close to reality but just let me let me

82:14

fix a couple of things for you first of

82:16

all if you're saying that a precondition

82:19

for lifting The Siege is that Hamas has

82:20

to not be in power anymore you have that

82:22

backwards the occupation of Gaza exist

82:24

existed before Hamas was created the

82:27

occupation created Hamas wait when was

82:29

the the blockade wasn't since the

82:31

occupation yeah I mean the occupation

82:33

itself needed to end they replaced the

82:34

occupation with the siege that's what

82:36

they did and no no the the blocket

82:38

started in like 2005 yes so they

82:40

withdrew it's been occupied since 48 and

82:44

remains exact no Gaza has been occupied

82:46

since 1967 Gaza been Ed since

82:49

1948 what are you talking about Israel

82:52

took over Gaza in 1967 who took over at

82:54

194 48 the Egyptians did yes it was

82:56

occupied by the Egyptians this okay see

82:59

this is the I know you don't like to

83:00

talk about that because it's not

83:01

convenient but that's true it wasn't a

83:02

Palestinian State who cares the point is

83:04

who cares the Palestinians were they had

83:06

a fake government for one year that was

83:07

Rec to Cairo and immediately disbanded

83:09

and it became a training for Fett let

83:11

call let me then call for an end to the

83:13

Egyptian occupation of Gaza too oh wait

83:14

it ended great so now let's talk about

83:16

the Israeli occupation of Gaza it

83:18

started in 1967 it has continued and all

83:20

Israel did is withdraw settlers out of

83:22

Gaza and replace that settlers on the

83:25

ground with an occupation from the

83:27

outside that's why nearly every

83:29

International Organization still

83:30

considers Gaza occupied even after they

83:32

would Drew settlers and place it under

83:33

occupation according to just about every

83:35

UN agency the EU just the list goes on

83:38

on human rights organizations as well

83:40

and so the idea then that you need

83:42

something to change and that Israel

83:43

would lift The Siege in Gaza frankly if

83:46

Netanyahu came and said to Hamas if you

83:49

agree to no longer be in power we're

83:50

going to let Gaza be completely you can

83:52

have an airport you can have a seport

83:53

you can just like have the population

83:55

live I suspect Hamas might actually be

83:57

up for that in fact they would consider

83:59

it a feather on their cap they can say

84:00

see we've delivered something for you

84:02

absolutely not they would't even agree

84:03

to a permanent ceasefire why would you

84:05

think that in exchange for Israel ending

84:07

the devastation of Gaza they they've

84:09

offered it a million times to release

84:11

old hostages yeah it's it's it's they've

84:14

offered it repeatedly and it's kind ofun

84:16

let me to be clear you're saying that if

84:18

Israel said they would end the blockade

84:20

that Hamas would step down as leadersh

84:22

if they were to leave Gaza absolutely I

84:24

think that that would actually are you

84:25

sure that are you sure that the claim

84:26

isn't that they need to have a 10year

84:27

truce or that they need to recognize a

84:29

two-state solution where the refugees

84:31

are brought back this is them as a

84:33

governing body early on when they were

84:36

signaling that they're actually

84:37

interested in in in

84:39

moderating in the late 2000s this is

84:41

before they attempted to coup abbas's

84:43

Palestinian author P the West Bank I

84:45

remember right before they attempted C

84:47

you don't know what you're talking about

84:48

it's so incredible there was an attempt

84:49

actually at driving Hamas out of power

84:51

that they then flipped and pushed the

84:52

Palestinian Authority out as part of a

84:54

plot that is documented I think it was

84:56

Vanity Fair that's true but you're

84:57

talking about 2005 when there were there

84:59

was going to be

85:00

International yes but but theas tried to

85:02

the Palestinian in the West Bank a few

85:03

years later when they right after they

85:05

announced their Unity government it's

85:06

great that you've done some reading and

85:07

you can throw out random factoids but

85:09

please I sucks when the history like

85:11

please try to listen to what I'm saying

85:12

to you so you can actually understand go

85:14

back to the broken bones okay I'm not

85:16

I'm not I'm not trying to throw up

85:17

random facts that I've read I'm trying

85:18

to explain something to you and I really

85:20

hope that you would actually just make

85:20

an effort to listen to what I'm

85:21

describing okay there was an effort by

85:23

Hamas at the time to try to moderate and

85:26

khed Michel wrote a piece in the

85:27

Washington Post here in the US talking

85:29

about how you know we don't like the

85:31

idea of a two-state solution but if we

85:32

put it to our referendum and

85:33

Palestinians want it we'll accept it and

85:35

whatever like there's there's all kinds

85:37

of stuff signs and what Israel did is

85:39

put a suffocating blockade on Gaza and

85:41

said you have to denounce renounce

85:43

violence even though Israel does not

85:44

renounce violence they said you have to

85:46

recognize Israel even though Israel does

85:48

not recognize Palestine and they said

85:50

you have to stick by all previous

85:51

agreements even though Israel was

85:52

obviously not sticking to any agreements

85:53

they had made with Palestinians in terms

85:55

of just clearly entrenching the

85:58

occupation left and right at at at every

85:59

opportunity and so Hamas said no those

86:02

are not acceptable demands and that's

86:03

how we ended up being stuck in the

86:05

situation where hamas's refusal to

86:07

accept whatever Israel wants to meet out

86:08

to them is the reason why that blockade

86:10

got entrenched and intensed and and and

86:13

became more and more punishing as as a

86:15

means of of um trying to place more

86:18

political pressure on Hamas and the idea

86:21

that now if only Hamas would agree to

86:23

XYZ then everything would be great in

86:25

Gaza there's just no reason to believe

86:26

that because the occupation and what

86:28

Israeli military officials and security

86:31

officials and political officials were

86:32

talking about when they actually

86:33

withdrew from Gaza was very

86:35

transparently a plot to deny Palestinian

86:38

statehood that they're seeing this is a

86:39

strategic move that will be useful for

86:40

them you you said as much as yourself

86:43

that the Israel's goal is to prolong the

86:45

conflict so they can continue to so he's

86:46

right about that if I can I can so what

86:48

are acceptable terms now I mean there

86:49

are ongoing negotiations happening right

86:51

now what should AC acceptable terms be

86:53

right now end of the conflict or for

86:55

actual resolution of the Israeli

86:57

Palestinian Conflict for the end of the

86:58

conflict for for this one Hamas has to

87:00

go ideally the hostages would come back

87:02

but I don't even know if we know how

87:03

many are alive at this point I think

87:04

that Israel initially wanted 40 and now

87:06

they I think turned it down to 33

87:07

because they don't think that they're

87:08

enough alive that even meet the

87:09

conditions that they have um but yeah

87:11

Hamas needs to go I imagine my

87:14

understanding is Israel still wants to

87:16

go into Rafa right I think they've

87:18

they've reiterated as much um I support

87:20

it I think Hamas needs to go I think

87:22

that's um hopefully they do it without

87:24

costan life but I think yeah Hamas has

87:26

to leave but I would hope that after

87:28

after Hamas is gone I think that Israel

87:30

has to change their approach to the area

87:32

um I think that Israel right now is on

87:35

the verge of a very strange existential

87:37

threat where they're getting consumed by

87:39

their own um I don't know if I would say

87:41

fear or just they need to the

87:46

the in the early history of Israel the

87:49

reason why Israel was able to thrive so

87:50

much and make friends in the west and

87:51

win Wars against the Waring Arab states

87:53

is because they two arms of military and

87:55

diplomacy that they wielded both

87:57

incredibly effectively um Israel was one

87:59

of the first Nations to identify the

88:00

United States as an important emerging

88:02

power and try to win favor with them

88:03

like like they did a lot diplomatically

88:05

and a lot militarily but I think um ever

88:08

since peace with Egypt Jordan the ABR I

88:09

think that Israel is just like now they

88:11

don't care they're just going to try to

88:12

maintain a status quo indefinitely

88:13

because on a military level they're

88:15

really not threatened anymore they

88:16

pretend that it's always an existential

88:17

threat when it comes to conflict but

88:18

that's not true Hezbollah the houthis uh

88:21

and and and everybody in the Gaza Strip

88:22

can invade all at wants and is bat him

88:24

away it's not a huge deal the

88:25

existential threat I think that Israel

88:27

faces now is is a political one it's a

88:29

diplomatic one because the situation the

88:31

status quo is not tenable and the

88:33

conditions on October 7th were entirely

88:35

I don't want to say like completely

88:36

foreseeable but like what do you think

88:38

is going to happen if you're

88:39

continuing this status quo over and over

88:41

and over again and then the the really

88:42

funny thing is we talk about we're so

88:44

obsessed with the uh they're trying to

88:46

ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip they

88:47

want to kick Palestinian out Jews don't

88:49

care about the gods of strip they want

88:50

to kick people out of Judea Judea and

88:52

Samaria that's what Jews really care

88:53

about it's that encroachment into the

88:55

West B we're not even talking about that

88:56

anymore because now everybody thinks

88:57

that apparently they want to put

88:58

settlements back in the Gaza Strip which

88:59

historically Israel's never even cared

89:01

about so yeah I I mean Hamas has to go I

89:04

would hope that the black a and and the

89:06

conditions are lessened there but there

89:07

has to be huge pressure on Israel and

89:10

the Palestinians there has to be huge

89:11

pressure on both sides to reach some

89:13

peaceful long-term agreement because

89:14

until that happens I mean it's just

89:15

going to happen over and over and over

89:16

again to nobody's surprised so just when

89:18

we speak about hostages I think it's

89:20

important to not that Israel rounded up

89:21

tens of thousands of Palestinians um at

89:23

least thousand I don't want to say tens

89:24

of thousands but thousands of them um

89:26

after October 7th they are being

89:28

brutalized in Israeli detention

89:30

facilities um dozens of them have been

89:32

killed many more have required

89:33

amputations and the reports of the

89:35

torture of the sexual abuse all this

89:37

stuff is happening and you don't get a

89:39

fraction of attention to Palestinian

89:41

hostages being held by Israel compared

89:42

to the conditions that Israel uh Israeli

89:44

hostages are enduring in Gaza which are

89:47

unknown and on top of that you have an

89:49

Israeli policy of insisting on this path

89:50

of Vengeance in which they have killed

89:52

infinitely more Israeli hostages and

89:54

they have rescued and to continue down

89:56

this path it's quite obvious that the

89:58

Israeli government and Netanyahu himself

89:59

does not give a crap about Israeli

90:01

hostages so just keeping that in in in

90:04

back of mind now when we're talking

90:05

about peace and it's funny the reason

90:07

why I wanted to point out that you've

90:09

said a lot of things that are actually

90:10

correct but you just kind of like missed

90:11

a key part of it is that yes the longer

90:14

this conflict goes Palestinians do lose

90:16

more and more and Israel sees that as an

90:18

advantage every day the conflict goes on

90:20

they get to take more and more of the

90:21

West Bank they get to entrench their

90:22

control of it and that's why desperately

90:24

need an intervention and if Israel is

90:25

not going to do it itself you need it

90:26

from the outside the way to defeat Hamas

90:29

if we're serious about not wanting Hamas

90:30

to be in power it's extremely simple

90:33

give Palestinians a path to

90:35

freedom and they will take it rather

90:38

than be driven by despair into

90:40

supporting groups that insist on doing

90:41

it the most violent way possible the

90:43

truth is Palestinians tried it with a

90:45

March of return they've tried it with

90:47

negotiations with Israel they've gone to

90:49

the UN the US keeps vetoing every UN

90:51

resolution that is critical of Israel

90:52

they've gone to the international Court

90:53

of Justice the ICC the US keeps putting

90:56

pressure on the ICC not to prosecute

90:57

Israel for crimes and then when people

90:59

try to do International solidarity and

91:00

boycotts people call that economic

91:02

terrorism and you have American

91:03

politicians trying to pass laws just

91:05

every single method of resistance has

91:07

been completely quashed and civil

91:09

disobedience in Palestine was extremely

91:11

common against the apartheid barrier

91:13

that Israel is building throughout the

91:14

West Bank um and all these people are

91:17

basically just end up languishing in

91:18

Israeli prisons you've left Palestinians

91:20

no Avenue and if you want to be serious

91:22

about defeating you know more radical

91:25

organizations that are committed to

91:26

violence all you have to do is Pal give

91:28

Palestinians a path to Freedom that does

91:29

not push them in the arms of people who

91:31

insist that fighting is the only way and

91:33

that has to be stopping US military

91:36

funding for the Israeli occupation this

91:38

occupation is illegitimate it's

91:39

indefensible it's clearly intended to be

91:42

permanent Netanyahu has said so the way

91:44

it appears on the ground is not some

91:45

kind of like temporary thing we're just

91:47

holding off until every day they're

91:49

taking more and more of the West Bank

91:51

that is what they're doing they're

91:51

demolishing Palestinian homes they're

91:54

Palestinians out of certain areas that

91:55

Israel wants just the entrenchment of it

91:57

we're watching it unfolding and there

91:58

should not be another Penny spent in

92:01

support of the Israel military until

92:02

that occupation comes to an end and

92:04

that's how you can put Israel finally in

92:06

a position where they have an incentive

92:08

to start negotiating in good faith

92:10

seeing Palestinians as as equal human

92:12

beings paradoxically I think that that

92:14

actually would be a boost uh to Israeli

92:17

Society because under current Israeli

92:19

politics you have some who say we need

92:21

to compromise you know we live here they

92:24

live here we're all going to live here

92:25

you know for hundreds of years we need

92:27

to come to some uh deal and then you

92:29

have a faction in Israeli society that

92:31

says uh no we don't because we have

92:33

unconditional us support militarily and

92:36

politically so we'll we can just

92:38

permanently quote unquote manage the

92:41

conflict and voters look at that and

92:43

they say well it's true the US does

92:45

unconditionally support so why should we

92:47

actually you know make make any

92:48

compromises and it has driven them into

92:50

this uh this culdesac that is

92:53

potentially suicide tile for the entire

92:54

project I think the issue is that people

92:57

don't realize that the way that Israeli

92:59

opinion flipped so hard on peace for

93:02

Palestinians was after the second anata

93:04

that completely mind destroyed so many

93:07

Israeli people when they saw so many

93:08

Palestinians across the entire country

93:10

engaging in violence against Israeli

93:12

people a lot of them were like this is

93:14

it like this is apparently these people

93:15

just don't ever want peace after that I

93:18

think that that's when you saw the

93:19

government start to shift a lot to the

93:21

right and the issue is that you just it

93:24

doesn't feel like there has been that

93:25

Palestinian leader that's been ready to

93:27

come up and actually make brave

93:29

concessions or strong concessions um

93:32

because every deal with a Palestinian

93:34

feels like a concession was not all of

93:35

Israel I just don't think Palestinians

93:38

all of the occupied territories just to

93:39

be technical the which occupied ones the

93:41

West Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem the

93:43

internationally recognized occupied

93:44

territories that Israel has to withdraw

93:46

from that's what Arafat has said and

93:47

that's what abasa said I'm a fan of

93:49

neither of these men but they're not the

93:51

obstacle to peace they made very clear

93:52

that they would accept a deal with

93:53

Israel actually ended the occupation is

93:55

never accepted a deal of course he has

93:58

no deal there are no deals on the table

94:01

no deals left on the table where the

94:03

Palestinian like we would just have

94:04

accepted this sing I happen to be

94:06

familiar with a private conversation

94:08

between Bill Clinton and somebody that I

94:09

know and advocate in which Bill Clinton

94:11

said that Arafat just kept saying 22% is

94:14

my offer and Bill Clinton had no idea

94:16

what he was talking about and the person

94:18

who was talking to him explained to him

94:19

22% is the percentage of the land that

94:20

is illegally occupied by Israel Arafat

94:22

was telling you and the occupation of

94:24

the West Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem

94:26

that was the counter offer repeatedly

94:27

and Israel never counter offer what do

94:30

you it's the entire basis of the peace

94:32

process that's not that was not in 2000

94:34

no absolutely not they Arafat in 19 in

94:37

the late 80s recognized Israel so he

94:40

effectively conceded Israel on 78% of

94:43

historic Palestine as legally defined

94:44

reced yes yes and Israel then if well if

94:47

you wanted to call his bluff all you had

94:48

to do is end the occupation and see what

94:49

happens but Israel didn't Israel

94:51

entrenched the occupation that's the

94:52

pattern and also missing something about

94:54

the regional Dynamic you're talking

94:55

about the Abraham Accords and all of

94:57

that just to be clear the entire Arab

94:59

world first it was Saudi Arabia put on

95:01

the table something called the Arab

95:03

peace initiative effectively and the

95:05

occupation will get recognition from us

95:07

and then wait what was the huge part

95:09

wait what was the huge part of the Arab

95:11

peace initiative they you're not

95:11

bringing up there you tell me which it

95:13

was the infinite right of return for

95:15

every single for every single

95:16

Palestinian

95:18

refugee confus negotiate that no no no

95:21

that's a non-negotiable that was one of

95:22

the reasons why the why the why the uh

95:25

after Camp David after the Clinton

95:26

perameters after taba Summit that was

95:27

the statement left in rejection of the

95:29

Clinton perimeters where they said we as

95:31

negotiators will never give up the right

95:33

of Arabs to return patri what was

95:36

offered what was offered in that Arab

95:37

peace initiative first it was Saudi and

95:38

then it became the Arab League it said a

95:40

just resolution to the Palestinian

95:41

refugees always and that phrasing no it

95:44

has not always meant that that phrasing

95:45

was specifically designed when we talk

95:47

about a two State solution and a just

95:48

resolution to the refugee issue it's not

95:50

saying and the full R of return that is

95:52

considered a Palestinian compromise like

95:53

many Palestinians are unhappy with it on

95:55

the grounds that it doesn't say the full

95:56

R of return it only says res resolution

95:58

is a just resolution one one in which

96:01

it's understood that you would allow for

96:02

a two-state situation to happen means

96:04

Israel recognizes that they drove those

96:06

Palestinians out a small symbolic number

96:08

gets to return to Israel proper and then

96:09

the majority of them end up in a

96:10

Palestinian state that was the loose

96:12

formula that if you look at was offered

96:14

in 2000 it was not what was offered in

96:16

it literally was there was an

96:17

international fund that Israel was going

96:18

to contribute to there was some number I

96:21

I saw anywhere from 10 to 100,000 I

96:23

don't know what the there some number

96:25

the occupation that's basically what

96:26

Palestinians have been asking for and if

96:28

you look at actual details of it and I'm

96:29

happy again to tweet about it afterwards

96:31

I'm happy to send you all the links that

96:32

you need that was what the Palestinian

96:34

official position was

96:37

official let me just respond to one of

96:39

the things that you a point that you

96:41

made earlier in the form of a question

96:42

that a lot of people i' I've seen it out

96:44

there so I think it's worth kind of

96:45

trying to trying to answer directly you

96:47

said uh it can't be a genocide uh

96:50

because they've only killed 33,000

96:52

people um you know if they wanted to do

96:54

a full genocide they have the capacity

96:56

they have the bombs to kill all two

96:58

million plus people so kind of a m

97:00

argument five of their population right

97:03

right why wouldn't they do it uh and so

97:05

one you'd say well 13,000 children far

97:08

far too many but uh you know more more

97:11

importantly than that you would say they

97:12

they've killed the number that they can

97:14

sort of get away with at this point but

97:16

the goal is not killing and death the

97:19

the goal is domination and the ethnic

97:22

cleansing of the region the clearing out

97:24

the thinning out of the population and

97:27

so you don't actually need to kill 2

97:29

million Palestinians if you can drive

97:31

hundreds of thousands of them to other

97:35

countries want I mean if you're talking

97:36

about genocide you you can have a

97:38

genocide with 100 people theoretically

97:40

the the number of people killed isn't

97:41

important the intention is important but

97:43

it's hard to make an argument for

97:44

genocide set we're not setting aside

97:46

genocide oh sure well I mean like the

97:48

the attacks happen in response to but

97:50

that would be that would be the answer

97:51

to the question why haven't they killed

97:52

more

97:54

yeah I guess but the problem is just

97:55

absent any there just isn't strong it's

97:58

the weirdest genocide ever if you're

98:00

dropping leaflets saying hey Fleet to

98:02

the South most of the military activi is

98:03

going to come to the North or hey we're

98:04

working with 52 organizations try to

98:06

open up borders to getas is generally in

98:09

the South why why did they bomb the

98:11

north Hamas is generally Hamas is

98:12

everywhere no hamas's like military

98:15

stronghold is has always been the

98:17

South there were literally 900 people

98:20

that they what happened to the by the

98:21

way what happened to that three story 3D

98:23

in of a command center that we saw under

98:25

shiffa Hospital the one with the do you

98:27

mean the one where they released the

98:29

footage of the massive tunnel the bomb

98:30

shelter that there are tunnels yeah in

98:32

Gaza but where was the command center

98:34

that we were all told existed I don't

98:36

when you're saying Command Center are

98:38

you looking for like

98:39

a I'm not the one intelligence has

98:42

corroborated everything that Israel said

98:43

and they said they arrived at oh that's

98:44

nice of us intelligence well listen if

98:47

you can believe Russia and Hamas instead

98:48

of the United States of

98:50

is I can't I can't help you hold on if

98:52

you want to believe hold on actually

98:53

wait I'm curious if Hamas were to make a

98:55

statement about a particular thing would

98:57

you believe that more than the United

98:59

States and the IDF corroborating their

99:01

statements who would you believe more on

99:02

that I don't think you can trust either

99:04

of them that's why you have to look you

99:05

think equal amounts of trust I think yes

99:07

that's about equal amounts of distrust

99:09

that's an unbelievably

99:12

statement hold on I'm who do you trust

99:14

then for your for a third party

99:16

verification human rights organizations

99:17

report re report things from the IDF and

99:20

from Hamas you realiz that they look

99:21

they do independent investigations as

99:22

well and they comparon they're

99:24

independent inves have you ever read how

99:26

they actually come up with the numbers

99:27

they'll call a hospital and say what's

99:28

your list of people that are dead and

99:29

then they look at the register and they

99:30

go oh well it seems like the names exist

99:31

and they write it it's the same thing

99:33

that you do with polling and population

99:35

counting and stuff you take samples and

99:37

based on that you extrapolate you can't

99:39

go and investigate every single Las

99:40

thing that happen doing sample work and

99:41

all of that that would be in that's not

99:42

what they do if you read how these ngos

99:44

actually then they conclude their

99:45

methodology on you can read they'll say

99:46

we contact they'll say this has been

99:48

third partyy investigator Hamas has

99:49

10,000 but also these guys actually

99:51

third party verified and then read their

99:53

methodology say we contacted the G and

99:55

health Ministry and they told us I like

99:58

you know what's interesting and you know

99:59

what's really interesting is that every

100:00

time the human rights organizations try

100:01

to go in and investigate Hamas says we

100:03

welcome a full investigation the Israeli

100:04

government tries to block human rights

100:06

organizations they welcome a full

100:07

investigation this is when when amnesty

100:09

inter go down and interview people and

100:10

they say some of them were kind of

100:11

nervous to talk to us why isn't amas

100:13

open any archives so that we can

100:15

externally validate what's going to that

100:16

country nonsense use Pew is just it's

100:18

inred what did I just say that was

100:19

nonsense Hamas has reported on multiple

100:21

occasions that they have basically

100:22

verified The credibility of the people

100:24

who are talking to them that they are

100:26

talking to because they have been

100:27

willing to criticize Hamas and say we

100:29

disagree with Hamas is doing we disagree

100:30

with the firing Rockets they are brutal

100:32

they are repressive so they talk to

100:34

Palestinians who are perfectly willing

100:35

to criticize Hamas for being terrible

100:37

but then they say but it's not true that

100:38

they were hiding in our house or used

100:40

human Shields or whatever so that's how

100:42

you know that when you compare those

100:44

narratives it's the Israeli narrative

100:45

that is completely baseless do you

100:47

acknowled real quick do you acknowledge

100:49

thaty International has said that they

100:51

store Munitions in houses I'll on to

100:54

that I'll on houses which is a very

100:56

important difference this is from

100:56

earlier this month an interrogation of

100:58

an Islamic Jihad fighter and I'm

101:00

genuinely curious this is not a leading

101:02

question at all asked by the

101:03

interrogator of this Islamic Israeli

101:05

interrogator of this

101:06

Islamic in isra that's why I'm asking

101:09

yeah in Israel detention in torture asks

101:12

which hospitals Islamic Jihad and Hamas

101:14

operate in he says all of the hospitals

101:17

yeah now Omar to the to Ryan's Point

101:20

what's your response to that yeah I mean

101:21

just when you look at the levels of

101:22

torture that happened inside Israeli

101:24

detention it's just you can't take

101:25

anything at base value of what comes out

101:27

of any confessions that come out from

101:28

people who are being interrogated by

101:29

Israel and so that to me is completely

101:31

meaningless yes if you put me in an

101:32

Israel interrogation Center I might also

101:34

confess to whatever the hell the Israel

101:35

military want do you acknowledge that

101:38

alifa hospital was inhabited by a

101:40

ton of Fighters a month ago when they

101:41

did that massive inhabited by a ton

101:43

of Fighters I think I can't verify and

101:45

were inhabited by any Fighters there

101:47

were 900 arrested 500 yeah and and there

101:50

were there were Mass graves in near the

101:52

unuser hospital that were filled with

101:54

people who are wearing that where people

101:55

have been buried there four months

101:57

earlier with their hands tied behind

101:59

their back zip tied can you explain to

102:01

me what threat people who have ini

102:02

reporting by Al was completely totally

102:06

by people that

102:07

were geolocator is an oen account on

102:09

Twitter that like has looked at a ton of

102:11

videos you can go you can look through

102:12

every single video my Twitter account is

102:14

is who debunk those is that is that

102:16

we're doing buy a Twitter account you

102:18

can look at all the videos yourself if

102:19

you don't you don't trust the IDF you

102:21

don't trust the United States you don't

102:22

TR who you TR

102:24

and Trust human rights organizations

102:26

whose job is to investigate these things

102:28

I don't think any human rights

102:29

organizations un said 100% we found alaz

102:32

has re reported what Hamas has said they

102:34

can't say it's 100% because Israel will

102:35

not let them in and they can't actually

102:36

go in and investigate in a current

102:38

active war zone do for alifa do you

102:39

acknowledge that there was a huge two we

102:41

fight there between the IDF and

102:43

militants yes near alifa hospital I

102:45

think there was a fight and alifa

102:47

Hospital yeah I don't know that it was

102:48

inside the hospital certainly there were

102:49

there were horror stories of what was

102:50

happening inside the hospital

102:53

F

102:54

civilians there's a very clear I think

102:57

disconnect here that is probably a good

103:00

point to start getting to not start

103:02

getting to but like if we want to wind

103:04

down here Stephen you said that

103:06

Palestinians fundamentally don't want

103:08

peace it sounds to me also Omar like you

103:10

think

103:11

fundamentally the Israeli government as

103:13

it is right now does not want peace I

103:15

think we can both agree there's sub

103:17

billions in the Palestinian territories

103:19

and in Israel that would like to live in

103:22

peace can I can I amend just real quick

103:24

if I've said that it's not peace nobody

103:27

wants peace that's a thing that we say

103:28

in the west because we're we have no

103:30

concept of what anybody's looking for

103:31

people want Justice right in Ukraine

103:34

they could end the war right now for

103:36

peace but they want their territory they

103:37

want Justice Palestinians could say

103:39

listen we're going to go with the

103:40

whatever plan where we're broken up into

103:41

20 enclaves and of peace they don't want

103:43

peace they feel like they've been

103:44

expelled from their homelands with

103:45

international support for Israel for no

103:47

reason they want justice so to be clear

103:49

everybody wants Justice right so they

103:50

don't want peace yes well the

103:53

what is the MLK quote like a um the the

103:56

white moderate one that says where Some

103:58

people prefer an uneasy pece or whatever

104:00

to an uncomfortable uh tension or

104:02

whatever uh there's there's ways to to

104:04

make things peaceful but but people want

104:06

more than that on both sides and they

104:08

should I just think that I think tell me

104:10

if you in the end agree with the point

104:12

that I was making because I haven't

104:13

heard a counter to it that the way to

104:15

defeat the ideology of Hamas is through

104:17

peace not through War it's a now I will

104:20

sound racist I don't want to sound

104:21

racist but there's a fundamental

104:22

misunderstanding of the way that Arab

104:23

states and Arab people in the Middle

104:25

East View Jews and Israel and to just

104:28

assume that being nice and peaceful as

104:30

then there is a whole Mythos a whole

104:32

mythology this would have been super

104:33

fascinating to uh listen tolin expand on

104:36

if he was capable of more than insults

104:37

and atoms but there is a completely and

104:39

totally different retelling of history

104:42

from that region from the 1880s onwards

104:45

and as long as those histories are

104:46

separate from each other there is no

104:47

reconciliation that can ever happen I

104:49

shouldn't even take this seriously but

104:50

if Arabs are just fundamentally racist

104:52

hold on wait wait hold on I just I mean

104:54

the citizens that live in these places

104:55

if the citizens that live in these

104:56

places are just fundamentally racist why

104:58

is it the case that when peace is close

105:01

at hand support for Hamas and armed

105:03

resistance

105:04

plummets well I because I think that if

105:06

they're fundamentally just opposed I'm

105:09

say there fundamentally when they look

105:11

at Israel and and and the Jewish people

105:13

there the view from a lot of Arabs is

105:16

why does their view change when peace

105:17

gets closer wouldn't it be the opposite

105:19

if they fundamentally just want to fight

105:22

with Israel

105:24

wouldn't they actually be more

105:26

bloodthirsty as peace approached yet

105:28

opinion polls consistently show that

105:31

support for armed resistance plummets as

105:34

peace becomes more possible that is the

105:37

reverse of what would happen if they

105:38

were fundamentally a violent there two

105:40

things so one you said it correct

105:42

earlier that even though countries have

105:44

foreign peace a lot of the Arabs in

105:45

these countries still don't like Israel

105:47

and still don't like the Jews so that's

105:48

one thing that even through peace that

105:50

opinion has remained consistent you said

105:52

that that is true they're chomping it a

105:54

bit to normalize with Israel the what

105:57

these Arab countries are chomping it a

105:58

bit to normalize with is you're going to

106:00

say it's the leaders right that's true

106:02

and in your case also the contradiction

106:03

is is is quite palpable which on on the

106:06

one hand everybody in the region is just

106:07

fed up with the Palestinians and and

106:09

they're just eager to make peace with

106:10

Israel and now it's like the problem is

106:11

that the people in the region just don't

106:12

like Jews well no it's it's it's which

106:14

one is it well it's it's both I think

106:16

that over time yeah sure so one is

106:20

sometimes Brave leaders are the people

106:22

that are needed to to make progress

106:23

towards peace um this might come in the

106:26

form towards Justice or peace uh towards

106:28

Justice whatever towards like bilateral

106:30

have an answered that question though

106:32

when when when peace becomes closer in

106:34

the moments where there's news that a

106:36

deal is getting closer yes support for

106:39

armed resistance among Palestinians goes

106:41

down that's the reverse of what would be

106:44

the case if they just fundamentally

106:46

hated Jews and just wanted violence you

106:48

we to teas part when I say that they

106:50

fundamentally have these opinions I

106:52

don't mean that they want to and go to

106:53

war forever I'm just saying that there

106:55

is anab Mythos around Jews that all of

106:58

them basically believe in in terms of

107:00

their they're European transplants that

107:02

have unlimited support from the West for

107:04

whatever action they want to do and they

107:05

don't belong there um and then there's

107:06

like a different telling of historical

107:08

events that happen that doesn't mean

107:08

that peace is impossible it doesn't mean

107:10

that there's not ways to work out we've

107:11

seen peace treaties have happened they

107:13

just require very strong uh leadership

107:16

and sometimes those leaders even have to

107:17

pay the price so for instance when Sadat

107:19

made peace with uh Israel he was

107:21

assassinated because they thought he was

107:22

a western sell out um like and it

107:25

happened to the to the Israeli leader as

107:26

well who was also assassinated by a far

107:28

right Zionist for that peace skill so

107:29

peace is possible it just it takes

107:31

really strong Brave leadership to do it

107:32

Arafat was never that leader you should

107:34

feel that especially especially

107:36

fromat was never isn't that leader

107:39

either he certainly was not a

107:40

rejectionist as far as here what I want

107:41

to do I want to toss to Omar for closing

107:44

thoughts and then we'll go back to you

107:45

Stephen sure Omar all right so when we

107:48

talk about just just set up the regional

107:50

Dynamic real quick um you have have the

107:54

region in general the people of the

107:56

region are extremely Furious of the way

107:58

Israel treats Palestinians that is the

107:59

primary reason behind the hostility that

108:03

exists towards Israel is because people

108:05

see day in and day out on their TV sets

108:07

what is happening unlike in the United

108:08

States where you can barely see that

108:09

kind of thing on on mainstream media Al

108:11

jazer does broadcast what Israel is

108:13

doing to Palestinians and they get a

108:14

very very clear and accurate view of

108:16

what Palestinians are suffering under

108:18

and so the people in the region are in

108:19

solidarity with Palestinians against

108:21

that brutal occupation against their

108:22

replacement the ethnic cleansing and

108:24

slow motion that happened in in some

108:26

cases not in slow motion in in

108:28

particular periods in in Israel's

108:29

history and they see this fundamental

108:31

Injustice day in and day out on that

108:32

level of racism and they're enraged by

108:34

it but you also have a lot of

108:36

governments in the region that are us

108:37

clients they're on the US team in the

108:39

loose sense of the word and this is

108:41

uncomfortable for them they want this

108:43

conflict to end because they would

108:45

rather be on better terms with Israel

108:47

and the United States they want that

108:48

Dynamic to end and so they also want

108:51

this conflict to end

108:53

which is why we had things like the Arab

108:55

peace initiative they want to see um

108:57

just an end to the occupation just give

108:59

the Palestinians something L can we

109:00

please like make this work and Israel

109:02

faced that with complete and total

109:04

rejection over and over again because

109:05

you have the political end of this uh

109:07

the political Spectrum within Israel

109:09

right now is just completely off the

109:10

charts yes you have some super

109:12

Progressive marginal leftists in Israel

109:14

you've got the Palestinian citizens of

109:15

Israel who sering the Israeli KET and

109:18

and and so on and they have um a no

109:21

power effectively in Israeli society and

109:23

the bulk of it ranges from the Netanyahu

109:26

bangir Coalition which is stomped

109:28

Palestinians until no end brutalize them

109:31

in the worst ways possible and hopefully

109:32

throw them out and finish the neba

109:34

towards the other liberal end of the

109:37

Spectrum in in the Israeli sense which

109:39

is just maintain permanent occupation

109:40

but let it be a Humane occupation let's

109:42

just you know control them and let

109:43

everything be fine and yeah we don't

109:45

won't give them full rights but they can

109:47

at least you know have some economic

109:48

activity and whatever normalize a little

109:49

bit that's the Spectrum and that

109:51

Spectrum will never allow for peace to

109:53

exist because no no people anywhere in

109:55

the world would accept to live without

109:58

the fundamental right to be free and

110:00

that's what's missing here and because

110:02

you do have a dynamic right now where

110:03

that cannot peace cannot emerge in

110:05

direct negotiations between Israelis and

110:07

Palestinians because yes there's a lot

110:09

of intense feelings right now but on top

110:11

of that there's a significant imbalance

110:13

of power that if you leave them you're

110:15

going to end up with a repeat of

110:17

previous peace negotiations which is

110:19

Israel saying yeah yeah let's negotiate

110:20

while on the ground they do whatever the

110:21

hell they want keep entrenching the

110:23

occupation eating up more land

110:24

brutalizing Palestinians more but saying

110:26

hey we're negotiating it's just it's

110:27

it's all it's all a charade and what you

110:30

need right now is pressure from the

110:32

outside I don't care whether you like

110:34

Palestinians or hate them or you think

110:35

they're this or that or same with

110:37

Israelis it's just it's besides the

110:38

point you have a reality right now in

110:40

which Palestinians are living under

110:42

permanent apartheid occupation and

110:44

apartheid and this particular episode in

110:46

Gaza right now is a genocidal episode as

110:48

an emergency we need to put an end to

110:50

this Gaza episode but the situ situation

110:52

was not acceptable even before the

110:54

onslaught that is unfolding in Gaza you

110:56

have a situation in which Israel denies

110:59

Palestinians the right to live in their

111:00

own State and denies them full rights

111:01

even under the areas that Israel

111:03

controls so they're stuck forever either

111:04

as subjects with no rights and they can

111:06

either take that and be happy with it or

111:08

if they try to fight back in any way

111:10

then Israel will just escalate its

111:11

violence to levels that are absolutely

111:13

horrific those are the choices the

111:15

Palestinians face and it requires

111:17

external intervention it requires the

111:19

world to isolate Israel and say this is

111:21

not acceptable this occupation cannot

111:23

end you have to end that occupation and

111:25

that means that you don't get another

111:26

Penny no diplomatic relations no Embrace

111:28

of Israel until there's a change of in

111:30

in Israeli policy and when you look at

111:33

Russia and Ukraine right now just we've

111:35

had a very brief episode of that

111:37

comparatively speaking when you compare

111:38

the two things there are instances in

111:40

which Ukraine for example I think it was

111:42

December fired a uh a rocket at belgrad

111:46

and killed a couple of dozen Russian

111:49

citizens including three children if in

111:52

resp respon to that the United States

111:53

said Putin has the right to defend

111:55

himself and we're going to give him

111:56

unlimited arms to fight against Ukraine

111:58

everybody would just laugh at you

111:59

instantly you would be laughed out of

112:01

the room because that's such a

112:02

ridiculous thing to say so pointing at

112:04

Hamas violence and saying that the

112:05

response is we give Israel unlimited

112:07

weapons to defend themselves when the

112:08

broader context is Israel is invading

112:11

and occupying Palestinians and robbing

112:13

them of their basic rights and

112:14

brutalizing them and killing them and

112:16

imprisoning them and torturing them that

112:18

in this context you're going to refer to

112:19

Israel's right to self-defense is is a

112:21

joke home Intruder who breaks into

112:23

somebody's home with a gun does not get

112:25

to claim self-defense when they're

112:27

inside that house if the people inside

112:28

that house get to fight back

112:30

Palestinians are fighting for their land

112:31

that Israel is not entitled to taking

112:33

Israel does not belong there and it's

112:35

time to isolate Israel until that

112:36

occupation comes to an end and that's

112:38

the only path in which we're going to

112:40

see Israel moderate the reason why

112:42

sentiments in Israel are so extreme is

112:45

because the US has provided complete and

112:47

total impunity for Israel nobody can

112:49

ever hold Israel accountable for

112:50

anything they've done because the US

112:51

ensures that accountability cannot

112:53

happen and that's precisely why we've

112:55

seen the Israeli Spectre move to an

112:56

extreme and in response to that brutal

112:59

extreme that is imposed on top of

113:01

Palestinians you're seeing more extreme

113:03

views also occurring among Palestinians

113:05

the corrective is incredibly obvious and

113:07

is impossible to miss if you're being

113:09

intellectually honest and understand

113:10

what's actually unfold so your last word

113:12

wouldn't wouldn't cutting off uh US

113:14

military aid and and blanket

113:16

unconditional political support push

113:18

Israel toward a compromise I don't think

113:20

we have blanket unconditional support

113:21

for Israel I think were to do certain

113:23

things I think they would lose uh they'd

113:25

lose they'd lose internal support pretty

113:26

quickly um a lot of the people you like

113:28

to quote harat B Salam are literally

113:30

hosted in Israel these are Israeli

113:31

organizations um just one thing before

113:33

my final statement do you think that

113:34

October 7th was justified the attack and

113:36

do you think civilians were targeted on

113:37

that day I mean there if you separate it

113:39

out the part where they attacked Israeli

113:41

military could be construed as an active

113:43

resistance store but the part where they

113:44

attacked civilians is completely

113:45

unjustifiable of course they attack

113:47

civilians of course that's completely

113:48

indefensible so I think that's pretty

113:49

straight okay okay I think that the um I

113:51

think that the big I think the big issue

113:54

when this conflict is talked about is

113:55

that it feels like people only ever want

113:57

to tell one side of the story that we

114:00

can't have a conversation on why does

114:02

the blockade exist we can't have a

114:03

conversation on what does Hamas do to

114:05

induce civilian death because Hamas

114:06

wants civilians to die in Palestine more

114:08

than Israelis do um why can't we have a

114:10

conversation about why I know you're

114:12

going to get the last word you mind if

114:13

interject on this point interject all

114:14

you want go ahead human rights

114:15

organizations have also by the way it

114:16

was officially Israeli policy to use

114:18

Palestinian civilians as human shields

114:20

uh they've done it in the West Bank for

114:21

many years arguing they have the legal

114:23

right to do yeah they were arguing for

114:25

it the Israeli Supreme Court Bandit I

114:26

mean do it the Israeli Supreme crazy

114:28

hang on hang on I'm giving some context

114:30

just I think it just hear me out this is

114:32

a thought that I'm going to piece

114:33

together that I think will be useful for

114:34

you to to think about a little bit sure

114:35

it was official policy um there was a

114:38

case in which a Palestinian got killed

114:39

because they do home raids in which the

114:41

first person knocking on the door is the

114:42

Palestinian with the Israelis like

114:44

standing behind them with the guns to

114:45

try to get somebody to come out and

114:46

cooperate and whatever and they don't

114:47

want to be shot at and when the Israeli

114:50

Supreme Court tried to ban it the

114:51

Israeli military St M was Furious said

114:54

this is a really important method of

114:56

combat it protects the soldiers lives

114:58

You Can't Ban it and you know Israel

115:00

that basically disregarded what the

115:02

military establishment said it was sha

115:04

mofas who was the uh defense minister at

115:06

Israel at the time all of this was

115:07

happening I think it was in 2005 and

115:10

even though the Supreme Court officially

115:12

banned it human rights organizations

115:14

keep catching Israel engaging in Acts of

115:16

holding Palestinians as human shields in

115:18

Gaza and the West Bank couple weeks yes

115:21

it happen and and you see it like

115:22

there's footage sometimes of holding a

115:24

Palestinian with a gun over his shoulder

115:26

it doesn't kill

115:28

them which is the point you're making

115:31

you're making my point yes very quickly

115:34

if the Israeli military thinks holding

115:36

Palestinian civilians in front of them

115:37

when they're fighting with Hamas saves

115:39

the Israeli soldiers lives it tells you

115:41

that they don't believe their own lies

115:43

about Hamas wanting Palestinian

115:44

civilians to die because it would not be

115:46

useful if that's what they

115:48

believe when the ID was using those

115:50

human Shields how many uh how many

115:53

Muslims were killed how many um

115:54

Palestinians were killed when they were

115:55

this is the last question I think there

115:56

was one incident of somebody getting

115:57

killed correct yes you know

115:59

why you know why because Palestinians

116:02

don't want to shoot their own people

116:03

that's why it's interesting so the the

116:04

IDE idea behind that was when they were

116:06

engaged in this um when they were

116:07

clearing out houses the idea was is that

116:09

if a bunch of IDF should soldiers show

116:11

up and start banging on your door it's

116:12

going to lead to some sort of armed

116:13

conflict so what the IDF started to do

116:15

when they houses is no what the idea

116:17

started to do when they were approaching

116:18

houses if there were people in the

116:19

neighborhood of walking by they would

116:20

say like hey do you want to walk up and

116:21

do you want knock on the store and talk

116:23

to this guy because if you go in and you

116:25

talk not with a gun that's not you want

116:27

hand me your wallet there's a reason why

116:29

yeah you can laugh but the funny this is

116:31

like this is the conflict because you

116:32

laugh now more people probably die

116:33

because that policy is gone because the

116:35

way that you phrase it is oh they held a

116:36

gun to their head a human shield which I

116:38

think did happen one time but there's a

116:39

reason why when you talk about policy

116:40

only one person ever died doing it it's

116:42

because it because there a safer way to

116:43

bring people out of the home in order to

116:44

have like you have an actual policy go

116:46

knock the door rather the idea is B

116:47

defending human

116:49

shield that's not a human shield a human

116:51

sh

116:53

shielding the other people no it was to

116:55

Shield the the IDF doesn't need Shields

116:57

from the Palestinians of the West Bank

116:59

the military thinks it's human Shields

117:01

but you don't the Supreme Court ruled

117:03

against it because they felt like the um

117:05

the ability for them to truly consent

117:07

the Palestinians to truly consent to

117:08

Knocking on a door was compromised first

117:09

it was nonenal eventually Israel said

117:12

that okay

117:15

fine you time I want because Omar got a

117:17

good chunk of time to give final

117:19

thoughts so I want to make sure that you

117:20

get this yeah I got you yeah so there's

117:21

just a refusal on one side well really

117:23

on both sides we don't have any crazy

117:25

Ultra zist here except I guess maybe me

117:26

but generally there's refusal on both

117:27

sides to acknowledge the truths of the

117:29

other side with the with the blockade

117:30

the reason why the blockade exists is

117:31

because Israel is evil Hamas doesn't

117:34

actually do anything to induce civilians

117:36

to be killed um Israeli people Jewish

117:38

people don't have any reasonable fears

117:39

of Hamas that's why earlier when I asked

117:40

if Hamas was in charge of Israel uh and

117:42

if the Jews lived in the Gaza Strip do

117:44

we think the treatment would be the same

117:45

or worse or better and we couldn't even

117:46

get an answer there because the obvious

117:48

answer is Hamas probably engage in a

117:50

genocidal campaign to kill every actual

117:52

genocidal campaign not one where the

117:54

people are on the verge of starvation

117:55

for 25 years while the population

117:57

increases fivefold okay so this this

118:00

refusal to acknowledge like basic facts

118:02

of history or the fact that the

118:04

complication is or the the conflict

118:06

itself is really complicated this goes

118:08

back decades in terms of how people are

118:10

disagreeing over who owns what piece of

118:12

land or or who has a right to to to live

118:14

in what place or whether or not they're

118:15

living under aparte or what a final

118:17

solution should look like the fact that

118:18

people are incapable of acknowledging

118:20

both parts of the of the sides of this

118:22

conflict makes it so that when people

118:23

are encouraging their particular side

118:25

there will never be a resolution if you

118:27

are a Palestinian and you believe that

118:29

today you are being subjected to

118:30

genocide and apartheid why in the

118:32

would you ever negotiate with Israel for

118:34

and an and thing and and I think both of

118:36

you said to yourselves the International

118:37

Community needs to step in and solve

118:39

this problem and as long as Palestinians

118:40

think that there's never going to be a

118:41

drive there to actually reach any

118:43

lasting solution because why would you

118:44

if we're being genocided we're being

118:45

aparted we live in open air prisons and

118:47

contion we're not going to figure the

118:48

problem out somebody's going to come

118:49

save us and as long as that is the

118:51

mentality that is given to the

118:52

Palestinian people they will continue to

118:55

fight or they they could where are all

118:58

of the and this is funny too you can see

118:59

so many Maps a minute yeah you can see

119:01

so many maps that are published from

119:03

negotiations between Palestinian

119:04

negotiators and Israeli negotiators all

119:06

of them are from the Israeli side there

119:07

has never been a deal on the table where

119:10

Palestinians said this is what we want

119:11

and then Israel didn't accept it's never

119:13

been the case that that was it

119:15

negotiators have been horrible kusher

119:16

talked about a

119:17

bus every single person talk about erat

119:20

about a bus the negotiations can never

119:22

be made because there is no negotiating

119:24

on the Palestinian side and that's what

119:25

we see today internationally yeah that's

119:27

just an encouragement to keep fighting

119:28

and fighting and fighting until

119:29

eventually your your one state from

119:30

River to se so we started this by saying

119:32

we were not going to solve the problem

119:33

and I think that proved to be

119:35

correct we did not solve the problem but

119:38

what we did say we wanted to do was

119:39

bring some more clarity about the

119:41

contrast on both sides and I do think

119:43

Ryan that we saw a lot of contrast and a

119:45

lot more clarity in the contrast just by

119:47

flushing some of this out so sincerely

119:50

yeah sincerely want to thank both both

119:52

of you because this is uh not always an

119:54

easy thing to do and we all are still

119:56

here so on that note Ryan any final

120:00

thoughts no no final thoughts I'll just

120:02

leave it at that because if I say

120:03

anything it's just

120:04

gonna The Nest right back up and we've

120:07

all got things we got to do right uh

120:08

that's right uh so breakingpoints decom

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120:15

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120:17

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