HEATED Israel Debate: Destiny Vs. Omar Baddar
Summary
TLDRThe provided transcript captures a tense and insightful debate on the Israel-Palestine conflict, focusing on the roles of Hamas and the Israeli government, the impact of international law, and the broader implications for peace and justice in the region. The discussion delves into the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the history of violence and occupation, and the international community's response, including the controversial issue of the Israeli blockade. It highlights the differing perspectives on the conflict, with one side arguing for the necessity of ending the occupation and the other emphasizing the threat posed by Hamas. The conversation also touches on the influence of the United States, the role of the Arab states, and the potential pathways to a resolution that respects the rights and aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians.
Takeaways
- ๐ The debate centers around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, focusing on the role of Hamas, international law, and the concept of peace versus justice in the region.
- ๐ญ The situation in Gaza is described as unlivable, with allegations of Israel's blockade contributing to a humanitarian crisis, including starvation and poor living conditions.
- ๐ค The discussion touches on the history of violence and the role of surrounding Arab states in the conflict, including their abandonment of the Palestinian cause.
- ๐ซ There's a mention of the militarized response to campus protests in the United States, with a debate on whether these protesters are advocating for peace or demonstrating anti-Semitic sentiments.
- ๐ฎ๐ฑ The Israeli government's policy is criticized for its treatment of Palestinians, with claims of it breaking international law and committing atrocities.
- ๐ซ The concept of a double standard is raised, particularly regarding free speech and the reaction to protests, with some arguing that pro-Palestinian protests are unfairly demonized.
- ๐ก๏ธ Stephen argues for the necessity of removing Hamas from power, stating that it's essential for any peace process, while Omar emphasizes the need for a just resolution and the right to resistance.
- ๐๏ธ The idea that Palestinians want justice, not just peace, is highlighted, with a discussion on the various interpretations of a peaceful resolution, including one-state and two-state solutions.
- ๐๏ธ The role of the United States and international community is examined, with calls for greater moral clarity and action to address the perceived imbalance of power and human rights abuses.
- ๐ There's a discussion on the impact of the conflict on the global stage, including the potential for Israel to face international isolation and legal repercussions, such as charges before the International Criminal Court (ICC).
- ๐จ The importance of acknowledging the complexity of the conflict and the need for a multifaceted solution that addresses the concerns of both Israelis and Palestinians is emphasized.
Q & A
What is the main issue being discussed in the transcript?
-The main issue discussed is the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine, with a focus on the role of Hamas, international law, and the debate over peace versus justice in the region.
What does the term 'international law of arm conf' refer to?
-The term likely refers to the 'international law of armed conflict,' which governs the conduct of armed forces during warfare.
What is the position of the speaker who argues that 'people want justice'?
-The speaker suggests that the conflict is not just about achieving peace but also about addressing the underlying issues of injustice, which they believe are causing the ongoing conflict.
Why does the speaker mention Gaza as 'unlivable'?
-The speaker refers to Gaza as 'unlivable' due to the harsh living conditions, which they attribute to the Israeli government's policies and the blockade imposed on the region.
What does the speaker mean by 'the numbers are so poor'?
-This likely refers to the speaker's view that despite the severity of the conflict, the international response or the number of people affected does not reflect the actual scale of the crisis.
What is the debate about the role of the United States in the conflict?
-The debate involves the extent of U.S. support for Israel, with one side arguing that the U.S. provides unconditional support, which influences Israel's policies towards Palestine.
What is the significance of the 'right of return' mentioned in the transcript?
-The 'right of return' is a principle that would allow Palestinian refugees and their descendants to return to the homes and lands from which they or their ancestors were displaced.
What does the term 'BDS' stand for and what is its relevance in the discussion?
-BDS stands for 'Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions,' a movement promoting various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law.
What is the argument regarding the 'demonization' of protesters?
-The argument is that there is a double standard where protesters against Israeli policies are often portrayed negatively, while those who support Israeli actions are not given the same scrutiny.
Why does the speaker mention the 'great March of return'?
-The 'great March of return' is a series of protests in Gaza where Palestinians demanded their right to return to the lands from which they were displaced. The speaker refers to it to highlight the non-violent nature of the protests and the response from the Israeli military.
What is the controversy over the Israeli military's use of 'human shields'?
-The controversy stems from allegations that the Israeli military has used Palestinian civilians as human shields during military operations, which is considered a violation of international humanitarian law.
Outlines
๐ Introduction to the Debate on Israel-Palestine Conflict
The video script opens with a discussion on the Israeli-Palestine conflict, highlighting the longstanding nature of the issues and the complexity of finding peace. The speaker criticizes the double standards in how the conflict is handled and the portrayal of Palestinians. The introduction also sets the stage for a debate between two individuals with contrasting views on the situation, Omar Badar and Stephen Benell Jr., and mentions the recent protests and responses on various campuses.
๐ Discussion on Campus Protests and Free Speech
The conversation shifts to the topic of campus protests, with a focus on the militarized and vigilante responses to these demonstrations. The speakers debate the validity of these reactions, the concept of free speech, and the alleged double standards when it comes to supporting peaceful protests versus condemning violent ones. The discussion also touches on the portrayal of protesters and the impact of the Israeli-Palestine conflict on American policy and campus dynamics.
๐ค Analyzing the Right to Resistance and BDS Movement
The discussion delves into the right to resistance and the role of the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement. It explores the legality and morality of boycotting Israel, the various political solutions proposed by protesters, and the end goals of the BDS movement. There is a debate on whether the BDS movement is inherently anti-Semitic or a legitimate form of protest against Israeli policies.
๐๏ธ The One State Versus Two State Debate
The speakers engage in a debate about the feasibility and implications of a one-state solution versus a two-state solution. They discuss the current Israeli government's stance, the historical context of the conflict, and the challenges of achieving a peaceful resolution. The conversation also addresses the international community's role and the potential consequences of continued occupation and conflict.
๐จ Addressing the Conduct of War and Atrocities
The focus of the discussion turns to the conduct of war by Israel, with references to specific incidents and the broader context of military operations. The speakers debate the legitimacy of Israel's actions, the concept of proportionality in military responses, and the impact of these actions on civilian populations. There is also a critique of the Israeli government's policies and the international response to the conflict.
๐ The Impact of the Conflict on Palestinian Lives
The conversation emphasizes the human cost of the conflict on Palestinians, discussing the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. The speakers address the issues of home demolitions, the reduction of Palestinian populations in certain areas, and the impact of the occupation on daily life. The discussion also touches on the international community's role in perpetuating the conflict through financial and political support.
๐ข The Blockade and Its Humanitarian Consequences
The speakers debate the reasons behind the blockade on Gaza and its humanitarian consequences. They discuss the restrictions on goods, the impact on the civilian population, and the strategic motivations behind the blockade. The conversation also explores the conditions that would lead to the lifting of the blockade and the potential outcomes for the region.
๐๏ธ The Path to Peace and the Role of External Intervention
The discussion concludes with thoughts on the path to peace and the potential role of external intervention. The speakers consider the need for a change in Israeli policy, the impact of US military funding, and the conditions required for a just and lasting resolution to the conflict. They also reflect on the importance of recognizing the humanity of all involved and the potential for a future where Palestinians and Israelis can coexist peacefully.
๐ Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
In the final segment, the speakers summarize their positions and share their closing thoughts. They reiterate the complexity of the conflict, the importance of understanding different perspectives, and the need for a nuanced approach to finding a solution. The conversation ends with a call for continued dialogue and a commitment to seeking the truth amidst the challenges of the Israeli-Palestine conflict.
Mindmap
Keywords
๐กInternational Law
๐กArmed Conflict
๐กHuman Shields
๐กBlockade
๐กSettlements
๐กHuman Rights Organizations
๐กRight of Return
๐กTwo-State Solution
๐กOccupation
๐กHamas
๐กApartheid
Highlights
Debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, focusing on the role of Hamas, international law, and the concept of peace versus justice.
Discussion on the conditions in Gaza, described as 'unlivable,' and the humanitarian crisis due to alleged Israeli blockades.
Analysis of the impact of US policy on the conflict, including the provision of weapons and the stance on Israeli actions.
Critique of the double standards in how protesters and counter-protesters are treated on US college campuses.
Argument that the Israeli government's policies are contributing to the suffering and violence, rather than working towards peace.
Concerns about the demonization of protesters advocating for Palestinian rights, including progressive Jewish voices.
Reports of violence against protesters, including the use of bear spray, fireworks, and physical assaults.
Debate on the effectiveness of boycotts, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) as a non-violent resistance strategy against Israel.
Controversy over the use of AI in identifying and targeting Hamas members by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF).
Discussion on the historical context of the conflict, including the establishment of Israel and the displacement of Palestinians.
Arguments against the existence of a double standard when it comes to applying international law to Israel and Palestine.
Concerns about the Israeli government's approach to managing the conflict, including the treatment of Palestinian civilians.
Calls for international intervention to end the occupation and establish a just resolution for Palestinians.
Criticism of the United States' unconditional support for Israel and its impact on the peace process.
Discussion on the role of the media in shaping perceptions of the conflict and the need for balanced reporting.
Analysis of the impact of the conflict on regional stability and the potential for a peaceful resolution.
Debate on the feasibility of a two-state solution versus a one-state solution, and the challenges each presents.
Transcripts
you're saying that Israel needs to allow
Hamas to stay there who's been breaking
international law of arm conf for 20
years as opposed to Hamas allowing the
Israeli government to stay there when
they breaking international law for even
longer than that it's not peace nobody
wants peace people want Justice oops
it's just War Gaza is unlivable anymore
too bad it can't support Palestinian
life people are starving it's just all
an accident it's crazy that the numbers
are so poor for a country that could
kill so many more people they're doing
things that no other countries there's a
Reason by the way which you will never
recognize why all of the surrounding
Arab states have abandoned the pales too
because their history has been one of
violence that first they've been
encouraged by the surrounding Nations
and used by them and then now they've
been abandoned once the other nations
that's a racist anti
Palestinian happy Friday everyone or
Thursday night if you're a premium
subscriber breakingpoints decom if you
want to get the show early to your inbox
I'm Emily jashinski and you probably
recognize uh the man sitting next to me
we are about to tee up a fascinating
debate I'm joined of course also by my
co-host my wonderful co-host Ryan grim
and these gentlemen that you see here
are not debating for the first time they
debated in the past maybe some of you
have watched that they sparred over the
question of Israel actually earlier this
year and then kind of subsequently
continued a bit of a back and forth so
we know that we're not going to settle
the debate once and for all here today
uh but I think what we want to do Ryan
is really push for more moral Clarity
push for more contrast as we reflect on
just this last week of absolutely
historic protests rocking uh dozens of
campuses across the the country so we
have two popular proponents of the
respective sides here and we're excited
to get into it yeah and to introduce
them both we've got uh to my right here
Omar badar he's a Palestinian American
uh political analyst who's been uh
following the situation in the Middle
East for many many years uh on the other
side uh we have Stephen benell Jr who's
better known by his streaming name Mr
barelli or whatever the or by like a
dozen different names from if you if you
guys watch the uh Norman finlin debate
um that kind of uh thrust Destiny as a
streaming name into this uh conversation
s we want to start with the campus
protest before getting uh to the war
itself this week saw a militarized uh
response over at VCU UT Austin uh
Colombia and the kind and a a vigilante
response at at
UCLA uh so just curious for your your
read in general enal on these protests
as they've unfolded and have you seen
any double standard when it comes to
kind of the the Free Speech Warriors
that we've seen uh championing the cause
of free expression on college campuses
now championing the cause of shooting
fireworks into peaceful encampments yeah
it's it's the double standard is
incredibly glaring I mean it you would
have to put on blinders to actually miss
it you have I think the these student
protesters are the conscience of this
country we are witnessing an absolutely
horrific situation unfolding on the
ground and American policy is to insist
on continuing to send endless weapons
unconditionally to a military force that
is mass slaughtering children by the
tens of thousands and these students are
saying we're taking a stand this is not
okay if we can't impact the policy
makers directly we're going to make sure
that our institutions and the money that
we're paying to these institutions is
not playing into this kind of Mass
Slaughter and what we witnessed like
from my perspective in a better world
cops would be going after the people who
are violating American law to make sure
that weapons can continue slaughtering
children rather than going after people
who are peacefully protesting
overwhelmingly peacefully protesting in
order to change that policy change
American Investment in it and you're
absolutely right you have a level of
demonization of these protesters um
constantly talking about them as if you
know it's just like anti-semitic mobs or
or whatever the people leading these
protests there's very significant
portion of progressive young Jewish
people who are the leaders of of in in
many cases of some of these protests
groups from if not now and Jewish voice
for peace and and many others and they
are on the receiving end of tremendous
hate and violence and nobody talks about
that and as you mentioned what we're
witnessing in UCLA is absolutely
horrifying these protesters being
attacked by you know bear spray and
fireworks and some of them being beaten
up and you see like some serious
injuries but because the climate in this
country is one in which one side gets
demonized that empowers and emboldens
the response not just from police but
also from Vigilantes and I just want to
Note One Last Thing um just because
Stephen is here and I think it's really
relevant is there's a person that I know
uh named Simone Zimmerman and who she's
in town today for an intercept event
that's right and she's one of the most
conscientious and decent human beings
that you'll ever meet and she knows
personal people um in her life who have
lost loved ones on October 7th from the
attack um that Hamas carried out and she
was horrified by that by that attack and
she's equally horrified by Israel's
response and the Mass Slaughter and
she's one of those people who is
fighting for a better future for
Palestinians and Israelis and she was at
uh at Passover Cedar at Colombia joining
the protesters and talking about how
beautiful it is that she's in that setup
and Stephen quote tweeted that tweet and
said that he would like to donate
thousands of gallons of kosine
presumably so these people can set
themselves on fire and it's just such an
ugly and distasteful thing to say and
I'm genuinely curious of what you're
thinking when you tweet things like that
everybody celebrated Bushell doing his
prot people want to protest that way
then God help them I guess yeah this is
not about Bush though but let's keep
going in response to that because Omar
set up an interesting position here
between anti-semitic mobs and peaceful
protesters so are what is what we're
seeing on these campuses anti-semitic
mobs or is it peaceful protesters from
your perspective Stephen uh from my
perspective I mean it really depends on
which series of videos that you watch I
think from an American perspective it
really shouldn't matter if they're
anti-semitic mobs or if they're
protesting foreign policy or whatever in
the United States we don't have hate
speech laws you should be allowed to say
really whatever you want want in protest
uh assuming you're not violating any uh
social or whatever the ordinances are I
know like for some college campuses
you're not allowed to block Pathways or
you can't uh protest if they've got
events planned for graduations or
whatever uh and as long as you're not
disrupting the piece in a way where
you're like you can't blur loudspeakers
I think on college campuses as long as
you're folling the laws you'll be able
to protest however you want but if you
are say what we saw from NYPD and LAPD
actually last night if you're violating
laws University rules even with an
encampment if you broke into the Hall
like they did and have been barric up in
there what did you make of the NYPD
respons just at colia for example the I
like to wait till the dust settles on
this because I hear so many different
things about how students were all being
pro uh peaceful I've seen obviously the
videos of like some of the stuff being
broken into um I I think that when it
comes to an analysis of how to respond
to these particular events I think that
the the the start and stop needs to be
what are the rules and regulations in
place because a lot of people will jump
in and start arguing well it's a public
area so they can be wherever they want
or do whatever they want without even
understanding the rules or regulations
in place um I think as a blanket rule I
don't know why this particular situation
would need any kind of unique analysis
uh it would be the same as all protest
if you're in a private college uh I
understanding as they can remove you
whenever they want it's private property
if you're in a state funded or public
university then there are certain areas
that are supposed to remain open to the
public and they can't remove you unless
you are uh not there in an ordinary
manner if you're disrupting some of
their event um I don't see anything
about these particular set of protests
that would call for any type of unique
analysis that escapes like that
fundamental rule to protest in the
United States uh yeah and your
fundamental rule then to quote tweet
with the Cy uh I thought it was insane
that you had delusional people
especially young children in the United
States that don't know the any part of
this conflict whatsoever which is
probably the vast majority of the people
protesting it um that people are
celebrating people setting themselves on
fire that is just unbelievable to me you
saw a guy do it in front of a I think um
one of the New York City cour houses for
the Trump stuff you saw uh the Aaron
Bushnell guy do it for who knows what
reason um I guess because you thought
the whole world wasn't already paying
attention to this issue and yeah the
idea of people ever celebrating
themselves in a democratic first world
country setting themselves on fire for
an issue that already has an unlimited
amount of international attention it's
unbelievably stupid to me yeah but how
does it relate to this particular
instance I mean this is a bunch of
Jewish students celebrating with Pro
Palestinian students over Passover and
talking about a climate in which they're
coming together like why did you decide
to drag the the Bushnell thing into this
that's that's one I think it's funny
when people disingenuously load phrases
like oh all the Jewish people are
protesting with these people there are
so many Jewish people that's not true um
the last few research thing I saw I
think for 2023 shows like 90% of people
who are Jewish support the existence of
Israel so the idea that there's this
huge group of
Israel this is not about the existence
of Israel there's no question about the
fact that so many of these protest
leaders are in fact Jewish these groups
they're not imaginary they're not a
figment of your imagination you can
actually go see them and and look at how
large their Gatherings are how l l
voices have been the people who are
getting arrested in Congress so many of
them are progressive Jewish
organizations that are leading this
effort this is not about some broader
what are the the views of of American
Jews about the existence of Israel we're
just protest about the protest are about
ending the slaughter of the children of
Gaza that's what the protests are about
what do you mean what does it look like
what is the what is the end condition of
the the it's not just ending the
slaughter it's also stopping the
blockade it's also reaching a just
resolution to the Palestinian conflict
it's also probably the unlimited right
of Return of six million refugees it's
probably the dissolution of Israel as a
Jewish majority State it's probably the
create like I mean what all does that
entail you're conflating a ton of
different things a lot of these
protesters have varying views about this
some of them support a two-state
solution some of them support a one-
state solution but what's bringing
everybody together in this moment is a
realization that what Israel is doing to
Gaza is absolutely unconscionable that
you slaughter people at that scale that
Israel is clearly waging a war on the
civilian population of Gaza that's what
these people are upset about and they
want it to come to an end and the
specific thing that they're protesting
and maybe we'll we could actually find
something to agree on here because I've
seen you you describe yourself as kind
of a a moderate who like tries to you
know balance the the extremists on on
each side here so the specific thing the
protesters are arguing for at all of
these different campuses is uh opening
up the books of their basically the
hedge funds that run their universities
and divesting uh from firms that are
either linked to the war in Gaza or
linked to Israel uh more generally Brown
University uh reach an agreement with
its protesters that they would uh they
would abandon their encampment in
exchange for a vote in October to di to
divest from that that gets to the
question of resistance and the right the
right to resistance and so for years it
has been in the kind of policy of the
right here and a lot of the center here
in the United States to make it illegal
to try to ban people from participating
in boycotts or divestment efforts or
lobbying for sanctions uh against Israel
at the same time uh you say well armed
resistance is clearly you know off off
the table so if you if you rule out both
uh you you only leave people with one
option so even if you don't support
boycotting or divesting from Israel do
you support you know the right of people
here in the United States to like
to explicit um for how states have
banned some of the BDS participation as
a fundamental right to boycott I think
in the United States you should always
have the right to boycott everything
except for our currency I think um yeah
you have the right to boycot uh whatever
you want um I don't know why that should
ever be made illegal but I I know that
there are particular things BDS stuff
that I think States look at but um yeah
of course you should always have the
right I wish that the people that would
talk about conditioning uh support for
Israel though would also talk about
conditioning support for Palestine
because they are some of the highest
recipients of Aid in the world per
capita the United States contributes a
lot of that Aid it's interesting to me
that seems like we're always talking
about how we need to condition Aid to
Israel congratulations Congress Congress
just banned all funding of unra so yeah
have seen that well so actually because
Stephen raised an interesting point that
what's the kind of end goal of the
protesters after BD BDS in the service
of what you know what does that look
like a one state solution Cho the
minority well so you said earlier that
you know it's it sort of depends on
whatever video you're looking at that
this is an anti-semitic mob or peaceful
protesters and I think that's actually
true there's videos showing all kinds of
different things which is part of the
issue of piecing together these stories
via social media uh so if that if the
one state solution is kind of the
ultimate goal of the people that are
protesting for BDS um what is your like
do you think they're fundamentally
anti-semitic do you think they're
fundamentally are they from your
perspective just mistaken uh misguided
or are they
bigoted um I I don't care try trying to
sort out like the difference between
like anti-Semitism and anti-zionism is
almost impossible and in practice the
two look almost identical sometimes so
the obsession of trying to figure out
like what is the driving thing here
between anti-Semitism versus anti
Zionism I think in some cases it's good
um to to find differences so some people
are discriminatory against poor people
some people are discriminatory against
uh certain races of people and figuring
out the difference here is really
important
when it comes to anti-Semitism versus
anti Zionism in regards to Israel I
think that the talking points of
somebody who's an anti-zionist are
indistinguishable from the talking
points of somebody who is anti-Semitic
so I there are a lot of Israelis who
don't support the Netanyahu policy
that's not but that's not uh anti-
Zionism such that they want a one-state
solution even Palestinians don't want a
one state solution om resp it's it's
it's utterly grotesque to conflate those
two things opposition to Zionism is
opposition to the state of Israel the
way it it came into being at the expense
of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians
who were driven out of their homes and
there's a different Vision that instead
of having a Jewish state that privileges
one particular group of people over
another that you have a vision for a
state in which everybody is equal
Americans would be familiar with what
that Vision actually looks like you
remember the era of Jim Crow and what
that meant and people who are demanding
a different kind of country in which
everybody is equal that's not the same
as being anti-white it's absurd to even
put these remotely in the same category
and can I just just if I can finish just
on on the point of BDS BDS also by the
way has been clear about the fact that
they don't take any particular political
solution uh it does certainly happen
that a lot of BDS activists do support a
one-state solution but that is not the
position of of BDS itself as a movement
that is calling for boycotts and
isolation and just on the Free Speech
angle you have States all over the
country that are passing laws that
basically make it punishable to boycott
not just Israel but Israeli settlements
that are built in the occupied
territories and those settlements are
war crimes under international law and
so you have a situation in which this
country part of its founding is that we
celebrate boycotts of you know as as
part of deep entrenched part of American
culture the boycott of British treat
during the the founding of the country
the Montgomery Bus Boycott during the
Civil Rights Movement and now you're
saying that boycotting the war crimes of
a foreign country is somehow punishable
people being denied the ability to work
with State uh governments or or schools
or or or medical facilities or anything
that is affiliated with the state those
are transparently unconstitutional laws
they have been challenged by
organizations like the ACLU they have
been defeated in court in many cases but
unfortunately they keep popping up
faster than the rate at which you can
challenge them and that's a serious
crisis anybody who's serious about being
committed to free speech and saying that
Americans should be able to exercise the
right to boycott uh including when it
comes to Israel or Israel's atrocities
um that's an absolutely critical issue
that we're not we're not talking enough
about that you have the power of the
state being used to silence people's
right to to free speech and I think
that's a really important angle I want
to move to the conduct of the War uh by
Israel pretty soon but I on the one
State versus two State question isn't it
the case that the current Israeli
government position is one state like
there's a complete rejection across the
board River To The Sea of a Palestinian
State River to the Sea so yeah I would
say the I think the lud platform is
essentially always said as much yeah so
okay so you so more agreement like
you're you you you oppose that you think
that
well I oppose it he's in favor of the
one state where the Jews live as a
minority in that state yeah no just to
be clear the Netanyahu government and
the lud are in favor of a one state in
which Jews are privileged over
Palestinians with Palestinians occupying
M multi- tiers if you're a citizen of
Israel you have a certain amount of
Rights if you're in the West Bank you
get this many rights and if you're in
Gaza you're completely under siege and
and there's nothing that you can do
which is country you've described every
country my vision of one us have more
rights than noncitizens yeah well in
those countries you don't permanently
occupy those people and prevent them
from having any rights and deny them
citizenship as well and that's the
fundamental problem is that Israel's
vision is Palestinians can never be free
they can't get their own State and they
can't live as equals within Israel so
your status is just to be permanently
occupied and helpless without rights and
that's a vision that I think is
absolutely nobody who has a conscience
can actually support and my vision of a
one state would be one in which
everybody actually has equal rights and
everybody can live equally precisely the
way that we live in the United States
which is a really fun position to take
in the west when we have like no stake
in the game I think it's fun to scream
that at protest I think it's fun to go
on Twitter and do that um I think at the
end of the day that type of rhetoric is
ultimately destructive to Palestinians
because everybody knows that that's
never happening it's a pipe dream uh
less than 30% of Palestinians are in
favor of a singular state where Jews and
uh Arabs have the exact same rights
literally nobody wants that people in
Israel don't want that it's literally
you're just virtue signaling and paying
lip service to an idea that is grossly
unpopular across the entirety of Israel
and Palestine not only that um the idea
that you would have a singular State
created where 6 million Palestinian
refugees are then brought back into the
state there's no shot that any Jewish
person living there who has lived
through the second inada who has lived
through Hamas attacks who's lived
through Hezbollah attacks who's lived
through International support for houthi
attacks is going to feel safe in such a
state and they know that there would be
absolutely no international support for
them if that state were created and Jews
would have start getting slaughtered and
massed there let's toss it to Omar with
that for response and also I'll sort of
add to that maybe narrow it down a
little bit what is then let's let's say
you know hypothetically would take the
best faith argument not from Netanyahu
but let's say an Israeli citizen who's
both concerned about their safety and
concerned about Netanyahu leadership
what does the path towards peace uh from
the perspective of an Israeli what does
it look like when they see the the level
of support for Hamas and we can
obviously get into why so many people in
Palestine feel like they need to support
Hamas yeah no in a way you're putting
your finger on on the problem precisely
I mean Israel is upset that there's so
much hostility towards them but the
reason there's so much hostility is
because of the way that they have bet
treated Palestinians for decade after
decade just the level of brutality that
Palestinians have experienced under
occupation has been absolutely horrific
and you know when you talk about the the
prospects for peace there was a time in
which Palestinians recognized that they
there's a significant power differential
that they can't actually get Freedom
From The River To The Sea in their own
Homeland and there was an an an
Indulgence of the idea that maybe we can
have a two-state compromise in which
Palestinians would only get the West
Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem which is
about oneth of the entire territory of
their historic Homeland and Israel gets
to keep the other four fifths that from
Palestinian perspec Ive is a massive
Palestinian compromise bending over
backwards to facilitate some kind of two
states and all what Israel was required
to do is not Grant Palestinian some sort
of favor but simply comply with
international law by withdrawing from
the occupied territories they're
obligated to do that anyway the occupied
territories do not belong to Israel and
during this period Palestinian support
for peace with Israel was skyrocketed uh
public opinion sure that there's
significant support for two solution
support Hamas way down even though Hamas
was trying to destabilize situation at
the time committing acts of violence
they did not enjoy any support among
Palestinians it is only when it became
clear that Israel has no interest
whatsoever and allowing Palestinians to
have a state and spent the entire
so-called peace process building more
and more and more settlements just
expanding them throughout the occupied
Palestinian territories where
Palestinians saw the prospect for a
Palestinian State shrinking by the day
on the ground they understood that this
entire process was was a sham and the
fact that Israeli restrictions were
increasing Israeli violence was was
ongoing it became clear that this was
not going to be a path to in which
Palestinians can get a real State and
that's when you got the shift in public
opinion back in terms of supporting for
armed resistance as the only way because
clearly Israel could not be talked into
seeing Palestinians as equal human
beings and granting them but then what
now well a shorter version maybe for
stepen to respond to is that the way to
defeat Hamas is through peace not war
what's wrong with that uh it sounds
really brutal but the issue is that the
unlimited amount of international
support for the Palestinians means the
Palestinians will never look to peace
they shouldn't they always have an
unlimited Reservoir internationally of
people who will encourage the delusions
that if they continue to fight they're
going to get a better deal it's the
reason why they walked away in 2000 from
uh Camp David is the reason why they
walked away from the taba Summit is the
reason why a boss walked away in 2008
from mert is the reason why the Oslo
cords were never negotiated in 93 that
period of violence that he's talking
about from 993 to 2000 where the
Israelis were continuing to expand
settlements into the West Bank is true
but Palestinians also contined to engage
in Terrorist activities a lot of people
didn't trust Arafat because Arafat would
sign on to a deal for the Oslo courts
and then he would go over uh to
Switzerland and he'd make speeches in
universities about how like yeah we
agreed to this now but you know we're
going to get them as soon as as soon as
we get a little bit we're going to take
more um which is ironically what they've
accus Israel of doing for the past 100
years um I I think that in order for
this conflict to actually start to reach
some kind of resolution I think that
again it sounds mean but Palestinians
need to feel like they have something at
stake and it looks like they do but in
reality politically Palestinians have
never lost anything because people
continue to make them feel as though
they can always go back to borders that
existed 80 years ago people will
constantly say you just said it here
well what's the fair the fair thing they
only want two a sliver of this land one
fifth of the territory yeah they tried
like three four five different Wars to
get more and they lost uh you can't
continue to go back to the first try
over and over and over again and demand
the deal that was on the table before
you walked away from the partition plan
in 47 you can't go to war five times and
then keep going back to another set of
borders there're always one generation
behind when it comes to accepting some
type of actual peace deal so as long as
Palestinians have people like Omar
internationally that will support them
in an unlimited delusion to fight
forever Palestinians will never try to
accept these and they shouldn't they
really should there's no reason to so
but Omar just what in one sense if you
have public polling that shows some 70%
this was from a a Palestinian polling
firm in December 72% supported uh what
happened on October 7th so and we can
talk about why and we will I'm sure so
with all of that said what now uh what
if you you know if you were in charge of
Israeli foreign policy in in a
hypothetical sense um and I I think this
will be a response to what Stephen just
said what happens now to get to a
position where to your point there can
be Justice I'm happy to address that but
just I have to go back to a particular
point the idea that Palestinians are
rejectionist because they have so much
international support I think is just
thoroughly absurd Palestinians are
paying an unbelievable cost every single
day their lives are completely
brutalized under occupation and the idea
that they see no cost to continuing to
fighting on forever it's just completely
ridiculous it's it's detached from
reality it's as if you're unaware of
what Palestinian conditions are under
Israeli occupation the reason why they
were willing to bend over backwards I
mean if you look at the history of
negotiations you look at the Palestine
papers that got leaked shortly after um
I think back in the mid 2000s it's
obvious that Palestinians were bending
over backwards to try to make that deal
work and Israel insisted on expanding
more and more settlements and yes you
can say that Palestinian violence was
ongoing at the time but so is Israeli
violence I mean the attack that happened
on the mosque in heon where 30
Palestinians uh nearly 30 Palestinians
were killed by a Jewish terrorist named
Goldstein that happened during the
so-called peace process and Israel
responded by putting Palestinians in
Hebron under curfew to prevent any
possible retaliation that those are the
conditions but nobody looks at that
incident and says oh well there was
Israeli violence therefore the Israelis
you know were not that's the reason why
they all over isra history there there
was a m in 29
where the point I'm making is that this
is besides the point that yes we can
point to individual atrocities and that
does not change the fact that throughout
the peace process if Israel were
genuinely interested in allowing for a
Palestinian state to exist they would
not have spent the entire so-called
peace process taking up more and more
and more of the West Bank so it's the
disingenuous nature of of of of Israeli
policy that that's the reason why this
is a problem now to your point of what
now you I was going say say they are
genuinely interested in a peace process
and you're you're in charge yeah what
what do they do so right now we have a
situation right there is a problem of
the fact that the overwhelming majority
of Palestinians support groups like
Hamas you have a majority of people in
Israel overwhelming majority support the
most vicious policies of the N
government and just carrying on and they
think that they're not going far enough
in Gaza and and and so on and that just
it's it's important to know that hatred
is a symptom of the conflict and not the
cause of it people get this stuff
backwards when you think of apartheid in
South Africa there was plenty of
hostility and we eventually had a
Reconciliation process between white and
black people in South Africa but only
after apartheid fell that's when you can
have reconciliation but the idea that
you can try to work on how people feel
about each other in the midst of one
side occupying the other controlling
every aspect of their lives and
brutalizing them day in and day out
there's no surprise that there are
hostile feelings and yes when
Palestinians do respond with violence
Israelis who are out of touch with the
reasons why all of this is happening are
going to develop hostile feelings as
well this is a moment in which the
International Community has to step in
this is not about making Israelis and
Palestinians like each other right now
this is about making sure that one side
does not get to dominate the other until
the end of time and the status quo
leading up to October 7th is one in
which Israel dominated every aspect of
pal Palestinian life so you can say yes
both sides hate each other but one side
is in charge of everything one side gets
to decide whether they want to put the
people of Gaza on a diet as they were
talking about you know when they first
imposed The Siege on Gaza just
Palestinians don't get to decide how
much food Israelis get they don't get to
demolish Israeli Homes at will whenever
they feel like it they don't get to
humiliate Israelis at checkpoints day in
and day out so because there's a dynamic
in which one side is imposing an illegal
occupation over another people and
taking over their land that has to come
to an end and can bring it to an end
through International pressure primarily
from the United States as the country
that has the most leverage over Israel
to say not another Penny until that
occupation ends and when that occupation
comes to an end we can talk about
sorting out the exact specifics of how
we get more conciliation and cooperation
between Palestinians and Israelis and
when when it comes to International
support for Palestinians there's one
side that has had the international
support of the world's great superpower
and right the political and Military uh
support as well Israel what about the un
supporting the Arab the Soviet Union uh
has had a very complicated relationship
be clear the Soviet Arab states before
the United the United States didn't
truly start Israel until about 66 6 soet
Union also hasn't been here since 19
since 1991 the conflict also didn't
start after the 91 after the collapse of
the Soviet Union but the the point is
that Israel has had a lot of agency and
and Benjamin Netanyahu in particular as
you know the Prime Minister for most of
the last what 25 30 years has had an
extraordinary amount of agency as well I
wanted to read to you um a a a a piece
of an essay published in haret recently
by Israeli historian uh youall Noah
hararia he writes given the murderous
nature of Hamas this time its allies
gave Israel free reign for many months
to conquer Gaza Liberate the Israeli
hostages change the situation in the
strip according to Israel's best
judgment and create a new order in the
region the Netanyahu government wasted
this historic opportunity and also
wasted The Bravery and dedication of the
soldiers of the IDF the Yahoo government
failed to exploit its Battlefield
victories to reach an agreement on the
release of all the hostages and to
advance an alternative political order
in Gaza instead it decided to knowingly
inflict on Gaza an unnecessary
humanitarian disaster and in so doing
inflicted on Israel an unnecessary
political disaster one by one our allies
have become horrified by what is
happening in Gaza and one by one they
are calling for an immediate ceasefire
and even for a weapons embargo on Israel
uh even during the worst moments of
October 7th Hamas was nowhere near
vanquishing Israel but the ruinous
policy of the Netanyahu government
following October 7th has placed Israel
in existential danger so when I ask you
it seems like a pretty fundamental irony
that if Israel had listened to critics
like Omar and myself after October 7th
who warned against enacting violence
just for the purposes of Revenge and
potentially for ethnic cleansing of Gaza
they would ironically and paradoxically
be in a much stronger global strategic
political position than they are now
where they're facing not just isolation
but uh charges before the icj and
potentially before uh the ICC so are
they making a mistake in following kind
of the more bellicose advice that
they're getting uh from their so-called
allies uh that's a touching essay who
was the alternative order politically
besides Hamas that would have R risen up
in the Gaza Strip if there was an
alternative political order I would love
to hear it even in the West Bank there's
a reason why abas suspended elections 20
years ago even in the West Bank Hamas
enjoys pretty broad support um I mean
there are answers to this question and
it's not rhetorical do you want to take
that I mean it's well hold on wait wait
before he does also to um to to uh
elaborate a bit on on the military
objectives I think Hamas needs to go I
don't think that there's any future that
happens where Israel can negotiate
anything whether it's peace or war with
Hamas remaining as the government in the
Gaza Strip I don't think any of the
surrounding Arab states wanted uh Hamas
to remain uh as the government in the
Gaza Strip it's a it's a disaster um
you've had a series of conflicts in 2008
you had castled 2014 you had protective
Edge 2018 you had the response to the
great March of return uh and now in 2023
you had a massive attack on October 7th
the idea that you would just allow them
to stay here after spending at least a
year preparing for what was probably the
I think the single largest day of
violence against Jews since the holocost
it would be that's an untable position I
don't think a single other country of
person in all human history be asked to
government like that in place can we
pause for one second on the the quote
response to the great March of return
for people who don't know the great
March of return was a civil society Le
uh Gaza initiative that was a
non-violent demonstration where every
Friday people would meet and kind of
March to the fence you know s
symbolically gazing out at land that had
been that they had lost o over the years
uh the IDF responded um by killing a
pretty significant amount of
Palestinians but also Ming I believe
tens of thousands to the point where uh
the the UN the UN put out a report
noting that it had become common place
to see people walking around with one
leg uh missing a leg missing an arm uh
the there were uh IDF soldiers who said
we were told shoot shoot out the legs
you know one guy said he hit like 40
plus legs like in in a single day Hamas
opposed this at the start because it was
nonviolent because it was Civil Society
uh LED Hamas eventually caved under
public pressure and and ended up
supporting the great March of return
which I think goes to your question what
is the political order that can replace
Hamas if there is a
nonviolent uh movement that can gain
traction then Hamas is is defeated by
that Hamas is pressured into supporting
that just by the the kind of public
support for it like happened with the
great March return the Israeli response
was not to say wow let's Embrace this
non-violent civil society-led movement
and marginalize Hamas and reach a deal
with this Palestinian uh force uh that
could even you know see a a unification
between you know the West Bank and and
Gaza toward a long-term peaceful
solution it was let's annihilate this
let's let's shoot and kill and maim the
peaceful protesters which only then uh
fortifies hamas's position and allows
them to say that we were right all along
we told you you can't deal with Israel
we warned you against this that violence
is the only way forward that is a
fantastic retelling that is almost
entirely fictional for the great March
of return it did start off as a
generally peaceful protest the idea
behind the march of return was returning
to Israel um the UN has released a
report where they've gone over a lot of
the shootings uh it's very curious that
if you actually read the entire report
you'll notice that almost every single
shooting happens between 50 to 100 met
in range which is curious why would if
these are because I was told I Believe
by I think finlin himself said or might
have been Rani that this was a crack
team of Israeli snipers but apparently
their rifles only worked up to 100
meters the reason why may they're just
lazy or maybe the reason why is because
there is a no-o zone between the fence
and 100 met is because when people get
too close um people try to cut the fence
open people try to break through which
is what was happening towards the end of
the they had no choice but to shoot all
those unarmed people it's if it's it
doesn't matter if you're armed or
unarmed if you're approaching an area
that you're not supposed to be in and
then when people start to try to break
into the break through the fence it's
that's the that's the rules of the the
Border if you try to cross any
militarized border you're probably going
to get shot at also towards the end of
the great Marsh return there were people
that were throwing stones that were
sending over incendiary balloons that
were causing like fires to spread on the
other side of the fence all this is
documented even by the UN and that was
when the majority of the firing from the
Israeli police happened um if you want
to say that they shouldn't be shooting
at people who were close to the fence
because you don't like that policy or
whatever that's fine but characterizing
that as like just open firing into a
bunch of innocent people that are
standing there with the goal of just
Ming people for no reason is the most
unbelievable telling of what happened
the end of that event it's exactly what
happened actually just to characterize
it just you know get a a even more
complete picture Israeli policy is
people in Gaza have no right to go in
and out of the cage that they've been
placed into they under Complete Siege
their economy is in shambles because
Israel does not allow them to trade with
the outside world they can't have an
airport because Israel doesn't feel like
they are entitled to an airport can't
have a sea port um you know when you
look at the rates of unemployment over
50% in Gaza at the time and if those
people who are trapped in this cage Come
A Little Too Close to the Border then we
open fire at them and kill them even
when they're unarmed cuz that's border
policy if this is
something it's more than 6,000 according
to the UN quote unquote more than 6,000
unarmed demonstrators uh were shot by
military snipers week after week at the
protest sites by the separation fence
there's no denying that yes some people
try to open up and some people sent
inary balloons over the border and so on
but by and large when you look at the
cases human rights organizations have
been clear about the fact that people
were targeted when they posed absolutely
no threat to Israeli soldiers so Israeli
soldiers open fire on people and
targeted specifically Medics and
journalists and children and people who
are disabled game that's being played
when we say POS no threat to Israeli
soldiers um there was one un report that
came out that analyzed it that claimed
that every single shooting except for
one was unjustified but the way that
they got that is they didn't analyze
that as an armed conflict they analyzed
that as a policing event and when you
analyze things internationally as a
policing event typically police aren't
allowed to shoot or kill anybody unless
they pose a direct threat to the
individual why would it be analyzed as
an armed conflict if one side wasn't
armed because Hamas was present
this they wen't shooting they weren't it
doesn't matter if they were shooting if
you've got an enemy if you've got an
enemy military that is present amongst
people that are
performing there
was Hamas is considered oppositional
force and if you've got people that are
participating in guns at the time
doesn't matter if guns or not have
nothing to doal humanarian law is
absolutely clear about the fact that a
situation you can only kill combatants
if they're in combat and they're armed
you can't find somebody absolutely not
true you do not become OED combat you do
not you not do not all of a sudden gain
the protction of a civilian if you're an
enemy combatant without a gun that is
AB abolutely
enemy Google ihat let do that abely just
to go back to a point that you made
earlier about sort of hold on just to be
clear I just wanted just to so you're
saying that like if if there's a
military and you're fighting the enemy
and you guys are going to lose if you
just drop your guns you can just like
run back and nobody can shoot it yes if
you drop your guns and raise your arms
you can't be that's surrendering that's
different than running away you can't
drop your guns and just run away and you
can't get shot cuz you have no firearms
military threat at the time it's a
military engagement true that is
absolutely not true okay I I
just Ry we have the control room look
this up you're wrong about this that's
that's a level of detail again you start
like playing up imaginary scenarios of
somebody shooting at you and then
dropping their gun and turning around no
no but that's what your rule would lead
to we have to be able to analyze like
this is the problem we can't acknowledge
like the basic realities conflict this
brings up a really fundamental reality
actually because Omar was talking about
airports and the Sea Parts ports and I
think we all agree it would be miserable
to live in a territory that doesn't have
an airport doesn't have a sea port uh
the argument from Israel and supporters
of Israel is that if you put an airport
in Gaza Hamas would immediately seize it
and use it to use Parts use the
Technologies to kill Israelis yeah and
nobody asks if you have an airport in
Israel will the Israeli government use
it to import weapons from the United
States that they then use to kill
Palestinians you see there's an
inequality here that we never really
acknowledge I don't think that's unfair
I just mean so what is like now what is
the path to creating a
do we think Hamas would use the airport
and the seport to bring in weapons I
have no doubt that they would exactly in
the same way the Israeli government
Imports weapons and commits massive
atrocities their terrorism against what
can people in Palestine do to create a
situation where that's not and what can
people in Israel do frankly to create a
situation and and and to Steven's
earlier point that which we did not
address is like you know he thinks the
goal of removing Hamas from power is
absolutely essential and you've got to
do it first I want to point out that
double standard as nobody says we have
to get rid of these Israeli government
is government is than it's not even
close it's not it's not by any sense
better what sense better in in in that
it's a democracy better in that it
responds to International Global
pressure uh better in that their goal
isn't the entire annihilation of a group
of people if you think that the
absolutely is the their absolute
intention is the absolute eraser of
Palestinians Palestinian population has
exploded because they're doing it in
slow motion there slow motion going the
opposite way is it like when you go
faster than light backwards through
that's a very very cute talking point
but when you look at what actually
Israeli policy has been for literally
decades it's been confining Palestinians
to smaller and smaller areas you can see
it unfolding in the case of Gaza they've
just given up on Gaza they've basically
besieged the entire thing it's a cage
Palestinians can do whatever they want
there they don't care about Gaza anymore
and that's how they wanted to leave it
in the case of the West Bank they
absolutely are squeezing Palestinians
into smaller and smaller areas so you
can talk about the Palestinian
population increasing in terms of
numbers but they're in the areas that
Israel is interested in taking over
they're absolutely decreasing when you
look at Jerusalem Jerusalem every few
years you look at it and the number of
Palestinians in Jerusalem is actually
decreasing it's a deliberate policy of
pushing Palestinians out but so from my
perspective you look the number of
Palestinians is decreasing are you
saying because some of them are getting
citizenship for Israel now because
Israel is demolishing their homes and
replacing them and in some cases you see
it actually on video of Palestinian
families being thrown out of their homes
in East Jerusalem and jewi stutler come
and take over those there is there is
citizenship available for every person
living even in East J there's a lot of
people want because they don't want to
be part of Israel do you think real
quick because you mentioned between the
Hamas and the do you think if Hamas ran
Israel and Jews lived in the Gaza Strip
in the West Bank do you think the
situation would look the same or do you
think Kamas would treat them worse I I
have no idea take wouldn't even You
couldn't possibly would look like to be
treated worse than Gaz is being treated
now a million times it could be actual
starvation it could be actual
ding people are dying by the
dozens I wish I brought a list of me I
have like 52 different stories between
October and now where verge of famine
imited Mass starvation almost famine
about to start it's been happening for 6
months and prior to this people
happening for 20 years doz of children
dying if you go by alaz reports the
number is 32 and that's the most
favorable Al re-reporting the gazin
health so that's acceptable for you say
it was accept saying the idea that this
place has been stared for decades and we
have 32 possibly show for
it you're once again conflating not
complaining I a very simp question that
you're not going to answer which is if
Hamas ran Israel do you think that the
treat would be better I don't see the
point of speculating about things that
we have no idea you said that the IDF is
worse than Hamas yes in terms of the the
scale of the atrocities they committed
there so in that Cas you that the United
States is worse than Hamas and that
basically every single large country is
worse than Hamas because the scale of
country I think the genocidal campaign
that Israel is currently engaged in in
Gaza is is kind of unique it's not it's
not common place for countries to engage
in that level of violence when you say
that October genal let me let me just I
just want I just want
to so many things having Chas theall
into different dire be very clear then
you can answer everyone okay I am not
saying so many things I will ask a very
clear question you won't engage and then
you're going to Yap about a whole bunch
of unrelated stuff like genocidal
campaigns I'll read it one more time
you're not going to answer I understand
my very clear question was if Hamas was
in control of Israel and then the IDF
and Israel was in control of the uh Gaza
Strip and the West Bank do we think that
Hamas who would now own nuclear weapons
and full military and everything would
they be treating the Jews better or
worse than the Jews are treating the
Palestinians and my answer is I don't
know okay I of course so um You'
mentioned that Hamas has to go I think
the Israeli government has to go by that
logic and the question then becomes what
cost would be acceptable to impose on
Israeli civilians in order to get the
Israel government out of power would you
impose starvation and all that of course
nobody would endorse that everybody
understand that that's a completely
monstrous um idea for a government that
has committed far greater atrocities
than Hamas has and then you have the
second point of if you want to get rid
of Hamas it might be useful to ask
yourself how Hamas came into being how
did they come about how did they get
support and it's obvious that brutality
towards Palestinians is how Hamas came
into being because they created
literally and it's it's you know you
even even if you want to leave out the
part where Netanyahu was effec was
effectively in indulging their existence
as a means of dividing Palestinians
Israeli politicians have been quite
explicit about the fact that they see
this as a useful policy to prevent a
Palestinian state from existing but
Hamas gained support as an alternative
to the Palestinian Authority that was
plant that was bending over backwards to
try to accommodate Israel and they said
no no no we can get you freedom because
we're going to fight and that's how they
gain power and if your idea is to defeat
Hamas and get them out of power by
brutalizing Palestinians even more
that's just completely delusional even
if you get rid of Hamas as an
organization whatever replaces it
whether they call themselves Hamas or
not you're creating another generation
of traumatized people who are going to
be desperate for revenge and you're just
basically prep Ting conflict that was
the point that I was making earlier some
of the founders of Hamas as children
live through massacres in Gaza in the in
the 1950s this well wellknown well-known
history doesn't justify what they did
but it raises questions about whether or
not tactically strategically those
massacres worked to Israel's benefit now
if you are Netanyahu and you want to
divide Palestinians and extremists are
good for you then it does work to their
benefit but if you're trying to defeat
Hamas or the ideology of kind of armed
resistance to Israel if you really want
a two-state solution if you really want
a solution to this crisis then why would
more cowbell like more violence why
would that why would that finally work I
don't think more or less violence will
work it it there has to be we try less
we've tried more it's not less hasn't of
the entire history of the Palestinian
people against Israel since 48 has been
one of violence non-stop all right so
that the idea that like it's if you're
just peaceful for a little bit it'll fix
things isn't going to work the
Palestinian people don't want peace they
want Justice and in their mind right now
justice has to do with acquiring some
amount of of Israel now whether that is
the entirety of Israel into a single
state or whether that's a two-state
solution again but that's not acquiring
parts of Israel if you're talking about
two states that's acquiring occupied
territory that is not Israel's and
Israel has to withdraw from it's not
what do you mean it's not Israel's it
does not belong to Israel international
law international law is extremely clear
about the fact that they have to
withdraw from that ter International not
extremely clear what are you ex you're
going to reference a single advisory
opinion written by the by the UN in 2004
they
endol anend mountain of un resolutions
that make absolutely clear that is
has before we get into the resolutions
um since you raised the virtue of the
Israeli government I did want to ask if
you had seen the plus 972 article on the
lavender AI program I I imagine you saw
this yeah I read through it a bit so let
me read you a little portion of it so
the idfu artificial intelligence uh to
identify ham Hamas members uh it used to
be that you had to be I think kernel or
above to be you know specifically
targeted uh by an air strike and you had
to be and there had to be some
precautions taken to minimize the
civilians that that you might be around
uh the IDF after October 7th uh got rid
of both of those precautions they said
any any Hamas member uh is is now able
to be targeted um by by an air strike
and civilian casual aties don't don't
matter in fact maximizing civilian
casualties uh seems to be a feature of
the program I'll just read from this if
you can put up the 972 magazine article
they they write during the early stages
of the war the Army gave sweeping
approval for officers to adopt
lavender's kill lists with no
requirement to thoroughly check why the
machine made those choices or to examine
the raw Intelligence on which they were
based One Source stated that human
Personnel often served only as a quote
rubber stamp for the machine's decisions
adding that normally they would
personally devote only about 20 seconds
to each Target before authorizing a
bombing just to make sure the lavender
marked Target is male this was despite
knowing that the system makes what are
regarded as errors in approximately 10%
of cases and is known to occasionally
Mark individuals who have merely a loose
connection to militant groups or no
connection at all moreover the Israeli
Army systematically attacked the
targeted individuals while they were in
their homes usually at night while their
whole families were present rather than
during the course of military activity
according to the sources this was
because from what they regarded as an
intelligence standpoint it was easier to
locate the individuals in their private
houses additional automated systems
including one called where's Daddy also
revealed here for the first time were
used specifically to track the targeted
individuals and Carry Out bombings when
they had entered their fam's residences
and a 972 argues that the reason that
you've seen so many women and children
killed uh is that they were identifying
men sometimes the and and something like
10 to 20% of uh men in Gaza are named
Muhammad like if you go through the
Ministry of Health list of casualties uh
many of them have same last names um
because they're from the same family so
they're using AI to identify a
particular man and then follow him to
his home and then killing him with a
bomb in his home often times this is an
apartment that is not does just have his
family sleeping there but also has many
other families sleeping there which is
where the we's daddy name comes for that
program they wait for them to be with
their families and they think it's
easier to bomb them in their homes
rather than try to fight them in the
field and where they're more difficult
to to find because the field like so how
could this be worse like TR try to try
to design a government that behaves in
most obvious counter is the numbers
don't support the idea that civilians
are being targeted in Mass uh it doesn't
even come close to it I've seen
estimates that any words like 9 to1 for
civilian to military death historically
in conflict and the idea that in the
Gaza Strip one of the most densely
populated places on the planet those
numbers right now are depending on who
estim go anywhere from 2.5 to1 to like 4
to one in terms of Civilian to uh
militant deaths so the idea that people
are being wiped out with Innocent family
members there just don't seem to be any
numbers at all to support that um
something that's also very frustrating
is Hamas engages in behavior that has
been documented by the UN by Amnesty
International by other
that is supposed to induce the death of
civilians I don't know why nobody seems
to ever care about this Hamas in the
Gaza Strip exclusively fights in
civilian clothes do you acknowledge that
I I'm not was not familiar with that
Hamas will fight from hospitals do you
acknowledge that they don't fired from
hospitals happen with the most recent
raid on alif let me let me okay so
you've actually gone no no no I'm going
to address this you're going to address
cuz you're not but so let me just get my
he said he doesn't think that they
he just said no he doesn't yeah but I
just want to go I just want to just for
people listening I guess um one of the
frustrating things about um asymmetrical
Warfare is that as law conflict has
evolved past the 90s the collapse of the
Soviet Union states are having to do
more and more fighting against non-state
actors which is posted a huge challenge
to the icj and the ICC in terms of how
he analyzes conflict and the reason why
it's such a challenge is because
international law only works if it
allows countries to effectively operate
so that countries will want to follow it
so international law tries to balance
for law of onct two very very things one
is the protection of orate combat
peoples people that shouldn't be killed
ever and then the other is a state's
ability to conduct Warfare because if
you deprive either of these if you don't
protect civilians everybody dies and if
you deprive a state of the ability to
defend itself nobody follows law of
armed conflict the issue with Hamas as
an asymmetrical opponent is every single
behavior that they engage in is meant to
induce maximum civilian Casualty that
means that they exclusively fight in
civilian uniforms it means that they
operate out of Civilian supposed to be
special protected areas like hospitals
the alifer recently is a good example of
that they booby trap uh corpses they
booby trap houses this happened a lot of
protective Edge in 2014 amesty
International reports show that there
was footage taken out of alifa Hospital
in 2008 Amnesty International did a
report on that that there was an
interrogation Center in there um and we
saw uh captured CCTV footage that showed
uh hostages being brought into Aliva
hospital um that every that uh Hamas
will store Munitions and they will fight
even from zones that are supposed to be
declared safe and they store ammunitions
in places like mosks or homes all of
these behaviors are designed from the
Hamas perspective to induce the maximum
amount of Civilian casualties and then
when it happens nobody has anything to
say with Hamas and everybody has
something to say with Israel why hasn't
Hamas by the way these are also
considered uh failures to uphold your
duty under international law why hasn't
Hamas tried to protect the civilian
population all those tunnels they built
they couldn't build one bomb shelter why
hasn't Hamas tried to set up a
humanitarian area why is it exclusively
on Israel and the International
Community and Hamas can't do any type of
collaboration or cooperation to do it
because they don't care because the goal
is to induce the maximum amount of
Civilian C just one tiny point if they
did build a bomb shelter for civilians
Israel vomit and say that look look
they're putting they're putting
civilians in the tel and if it would
happen that would be the end of the
conflict because if there is a civilian
bomb shelter built and there were no
homos mil and and Israel hit that then
it's over at that point who supports
Israel they're bombing entire
neighborhood being respon to the
hospital you've gone through a lengthy
record allow me to do the same actually
for just one second one of the things
that you had actually said recently I
think it's on the comedy seller podcast
is that it is is quite blatant to you
you said patently obvious that Israel is
doing everything it can to protect
civilians in Gaza or I don't think said
I think said more than any other country
ever has in the history of arm conflict
yes I think do we have have that oh
actually it turns out we do have that
all right it seems if you engage with it
honestly and I hate to say this very
partis when you engage with it honestly
it seems obvious like patently obvious
that Israel is doing everything they can
to minimize cilian casualties that it's
like undeniable because the numbers
would be so much different if they were
just indiscriminately bombing or carpet
bombing as everybody says so um but I
mean they still have to manage the pr
aspect because at the end of the day you
know perception is really the only thing
that matters in international
communities with other countries so
frankly the claim that Israel is doing
everything it can to minimize civilian
casualties is is by far the single most
absurd thing that I have heard Stephen
say period let me run through the you
would Target a soldier at his house at
night if that was your goal and with a
with a thing that you mentioned with
laender it's specifically yeah
specifically when they're at home but
beyond that if I can run through that
record because one second quick do you
stand by saying everything uh my the
more basically yeah the more the more
more than any other country ever has in
the history of all of arm conflict let's
run through the record human rights
organizations who are the objective
observers on the situations every single
one of them in every subsequent invasion
of Gaza including the current one talk
about Israel engaging in massive
indiscriminate bombing of Civilian areas
they talk about flattening entire
neighborhoods um they talk also about
deliberately killing civilians who pose
absolutely no threat to Israeli soldiers
they go through and describe these
incidents they raise them with Israeli
military the isra military says we
investigated and we saw that nobody no
nothing wrong happened and human rights
organizations's assessment of the way
that Israel conducts itself is that it's
completely in violation of international
law and that their self-accountability
is a complete sham it's not actually
serious and then you look at what
Israeli leaders themselves also say and
by the way that 972 magazine there was a
a article there was a one that came
before it as well in which they
described that israeli's policy in Gaza
is to basically shock the civilian
population by doing massive Devastation
in civilian areas as a means of putting
pressure on Hamas and that included an
example that they listed toppling a
high-rise Residential Building without
warning on top of the people who are
inside it so that's name for and that's
yeah that's based on power targets as
power Target yeah and that's based on
interviews with Israeli Intelligence
Officers about Israeli policy in Gaza
and it's long been stated Israeli policy
frankly if you look at uh people like G
island Israeli General who later became
the National Security adviser in Israel
they talk about the policy being to
punish the civilians and to induce so
much suffering among them in huge
numbers to put pressure on groups like
Hamas and Hezbollah and this is not new
here by the way during yeah during the
2006 invasion of Lebanon there is an
incident in which Israel dropped a
million cluster bombs all over towns and
villages in Lebanon prompting a high
ranking Israeli Commander to say quote
this is you can find it on onat what we
did was insane and monstrous we covered
entire towns and villages with cluster
bombs that's how they describe what
Israel actually carried out at the time
and then you look at current Israeli
statements right now from all of this
Benjamin Netanyahu has been quoted
saying in Israeli press again talking
about what the strategy is with with Ron
durmer and he said the strategy is to
thin the population in Gaza down to a
minimum that's what he actually wants to
do he uses genocidal language like the
amalik which is a quote from the Bible
about murdering the children and babies
of your en the he the idea that it's
exclusively used to describe animals is
not true but and you have then Israeli
soldiers themselves so in case there's a
misinterpretation of that celebrating
that they're going to kill Palestinians
uh Palestinian civilians they're
chanting about the AMC and how we're
going to destroy them and you have
people who are actually posting videos
on themselves talking about we're
killing them by the tens of thousands
isn't that great so that's the rhetoric
of Israeli soldiers themselves on the
ground then they're caught on tape
shooting children in the head when they
posed absolutely no threat it happened
in Janine even in the West Bank during
this current crisis where you saw two
young children being shot in the head um
without with basically very obviously
posing no threat you saw in Gaza a
grandmother holding the hand of a young
child while carrying a white flag and
they shoot her dead while the child is
is holding her hand and the child freaks
out and everybody else runs away you
have a pattern that is documented on
video of these kinds of crimes you have
American doctors who visit Gaza and talk
about the horrors they see in hospital
how there's countless children who come
in with single sniper bullet wounds to
the Head they can't keep track of how
many of these are coming in and you have
the president of the United States
describing Joe Biden describing Israeli
bombings of Gaza as indiscriminate the
idea that you can look at this mountain
of evidence between what human rights
organizations are reporting what Israeli
leaders are saying what Israeli soldiers
are posting of themselves and what the
American government's assessment of that
bombing is and to say they're doing
everything they can to minimize civilian
casualties is just so thoroughly
dishonest on behalf of an apartheid
government that is committing atrocities
before all of us it's just it's it's
mindboggling Steve you honestly would
have to be either naive to believe that
or dishonest and you just don't strike
me as a naive guy you're a very smart
guy I don't understand how you can
actually say that it's funny because the
entire like Yap you just did is
completely destroyed by a single
question how do you explain the numbers
what how do you explain the ratio of
even what Hamas has claimed mil 70%
women and children how do you explain
that women and children hold I'm sorry
because for children we're saying 18 and
under as opposed to the traditionally
fighting age is what we would usually
talk about these conflicts but
everything palan are special rules not
I'm
asking how do you explain the fact that
even Hamas admitted I believe that I
think it was 7500 or 8,000 of the people
killed I don't remember what their exact
numb I have an analysis from March 12th
so this is from just security as of this
date the IDF reported 29,000 air strikes
in Gaza at that date the number of
reported civilian deaths in Gaza was
roughly
29,200 the number of Hamas Fighters
killed in action has been claimed by the
IDF and Hamas both without evidence the
IDF claims 12,000 Fighters killed while
Hamas claims 6,000 Fighters killed so we
can look at those numbers given the
demographic data from the health
Ministry out of 29,200 deaths about
9,700 were men and the rest were women
and children if the IDF claim is true
this is equivalent to every man being
killed in Gaza being a Hamas fighter and
several thousand women Andor children
being Hamas Fighters This is extremely
unlikely but to be extremely
conservative I will use the IDF reported
Hamas casualty numbers 12,000 you give a
lower bound on civilian deaths in in
addition we need to subtract deaths that
would normally happen for this
population so about 4,900 deaths per
year on average equivalent to about
1,800 in a 4.5 month period this gives
us a minimum number of Civilian or
deaths of approximately 15,700 based on
29,000 air strikes that leads to an
approximate an average of 54 civilians
killed per 100 attacks and just lastly
this analysis goes on to say despite the
alarm over the high rate of Civilian
deaths in raqa one finds the minimum
equivalent in Gaza 54 civilians killed
in 100 attacks is eight times greater
than the air wars based estimate and 32
times greater than the dod estimate and
recall that that 52 numers a lower Bound
for the Gaza ratio is likely far higher
than this so Stephen do you dispute the
validity of those numbers what what was
the ratio of Fighters on the lower bound
what was the ratio of Fighters to
civilians there did they say did they
say Hamas claimed 6,000 yeah so of of
and the death PLL at that time was how
much 29,000 about 9,000 men total so
6,000 and it was 29,000 total deaths
29,200 total death L 9,700 were men so
that so if you're taking the the that's
the Hamas reported number you're at one
militant to four civilians and that's
and that's for the Hamas reported number
how can the how can the ratio be so
horrible Israel is on a genal
indiscriminate campaign against Hamas
how can that possibly be the case
they're doing it again in slow motion to
give plausible deniability that this is
happening it's obvious look they've
destroyed 80% of the building theyit
that number is true displaced 90% of the
population can you name any other
conflict in which you displac 90% of the
the civilian population no because
usually they just destroyed them you
think in Dres they told the civilians to
flee do you think in the Tokyo fire
bombing told the Civ to leave for
Nagasaki and hoshima Did we tell the
civilians to leave can you hold on can
you acknowledge what you just said was
incredibly stupid that no they
don't tell civilians to leave first
normally they just kill them because we
need he an because because he think
because he thinks this such a clever
line let me explain something to you
he's not going no I'm going to
acknowledge it I'm going to acknowledge
it yes they told civilians to leave and
then they Dro massive 2,000 bombs on the
safe zones that they told the civilians
to Safe
Zone whatever there been countless
incidents of them dropping now you're
just lying I'm not I looked it up you
look up all the data on all the St four
hours of rad they make safe per day
guarante Trel
York there's a New York Times
investigation and there's an NBC
investigation both of them document the
fact that Israel is bombing safe zones
where they tell civilians to flee and
Israel ad Israel ad hold on just is
admitted at CNN that intelligence
indication that these places were safe
houses for commanders of the RF of a
brigade of the Hamas teror organization
this was back in December about bombing
areas that were supposed to be
evacuation routes evacuation routes are
not safe zones there's been one official
declared should Hamas not operate from
there I mean we're talking again good
question there's one zone I wish I could
remember is it Al it's Al MAA something
uh it's the beach uh west of uh conun
whatever nobody knows it uh the it's
this is the only singular they told
people to go to kanun it be safe there
they they did not they absolutely did
not declare that kanun would be a safe
zone no that's absolutely why they tell
people to go there well initially
because most of the operations were nor
concentrate them and kill them there if
why else would they say go there if
you're a pal so are we going to see are
we going to see 20 30 40 50,000 deaths
soon then are we about to see like
100,000 Palestinians go up and smoke
that's what they're doing they're
hurting them all to one C City so they
can blow them all upit but I thought I
thought we said they were going for
plausible deniability now they're hting
them to one giant Kill Zone and blow
them all up yes and now they're going to
tell them that it's time to relocate
because we're going to invade Rafa and
send them to places where there is no
food water or shelter and have
them and death like they have been for
the past five months yes it's going to
be ongoing killing rate killing them by
the tens of thousands and saying oops
it's just War Gaza is unlivable anymore
too bad it can't support Palestinian
life people are starving it's just all
an accident that they're giving an
accident it's crazy that the numbers are
so poor for a country that could kill so
many more people but they're constantly
they're doing things that no other
country do you acknowledge that no other
country does leaflets phone calls to
buildings uh roof knocking Sirens you
get that no one no other organizations
you're not going to answer that cleared
MOS countries do it
yeah before we went into literally
interrupt me to tell me I'm not going to
answer something I'm trying
to saying you were saying no country has
done anything like roof knockings and
leafless and all that and when you look
at what human rights organizations say
about these they say they're completely
pointless because there's nowhere for
these civilians to go that is safe so
you can drop a leaflet that's it's it's
it's a game and right and like the fact
that people like you fall for it is is
just kind of really embarrassing you
have no explanation for the ratio for
the one to four on the low they tell
civilians to flee because here we're
going to be so nice and make sure that
you don't die and then when they flee
they kill them as they're fleeing or
they kill them wherever they numbers are
so disproportionate if you were a
Palestinian what would you do if you
lived in probably go south to the uh
whatever the beach was I wish I had the
name of it right now but there's there's
been one singularly declared safe area
and it's that Beach um how many how many
Palestines do you want to crowd into
that whatever that small Beach I gu one
point however many million how many
bathrooms are there how much water is
there you it's better than getting blown
up by a bomb if you want the war to stop
how about just have Hamas leave hostages
or is or Israel could just stop bombing
God why is stop attacking enemy that
committed the largest terror attack per
capita in the history of the entire
country it's a ridiculous double
standard hold on you think it's
reasonable to tell Israel heyas I know
that you guys like did a bit a little
bit of a large terrorism against us and
have been by the way which is violation
of international law indiscriminately
launching Rockets uh for decades from
this and every single one of those is a
violation of international law because
those are by definition indiscriminate
which by definition fail the distinction
uh principle that is essential to law of
armed conflict one of the three PRS wait
no no wait so you're saying that Israel
needs to allow Hamas to stay there who's
been breaking international law of arm
conf for 20 years as opposed to Hamas
allowing the Israeli government to stay
there when they're breaking
international law for even longer than
that and I want to put a fine point on
that seriously no honestly I want to get
an answer to that why is it that you
think that the isra government having
committed all the atrocities that they
the Israeli government is a democracy
that can be reasoned with their
neighbors have reasoned with them people
have signed peace agreements and people
have reached agreements with them the
Palestinians have not and there's a
Reason by the way which you will never
recognize why all of the surrounding
Arab states have abandoned the
Palestinians too because their history
has been one of violence that first
they've been encouraged by the
surrounding Nations and used by them and
then now they've been abandoned once the
other nations used that's a racist anti
Palestinian racist what happened in the
7s why did the Palestinians get kick out
joint in the why pal assassinate the
Jordan King
why with the palan he's racist Omar when
he talks about Palestinians nobody likes
them and nobody wants them and nobody
whatever yes absolutely that's a racist
description can let mear this this this
distinction between like there's a
category people who are racist category
people who are not I I think that's a
simplistic thing what he just described
is a racist stereotype there's
absolutely no question about I'm
fact it is to a lot of people that are
pro Palestinian I understand history is
like traumatizing understand that the
Egyptian dictatorship is collaborating
with Israel to suppress anything that is
Muslim Brotherhood Affiliated and that's
why the reason they're collaborating
against Gaza collaborating with the with
the Israeli government when they locked
all the gazans in the Gaza ser and
didn't let any of them leave yeah
okay Steve you do this thing constantly
where you bring up random anecdotes that
are completely irrelevant to anything
that what I'm to I'm sorry you I'm sorry
the reason why that wasn't random is
because you applied today that the
dictatorship in Egypt first of all you
said dictatorship very loaded yes Egypt
had a history of dictatorship so you're
implying that they're coll
collaborating way and even from
47 when Egypt had control of the Gaza
Strip the Palestinians were still locked
in that Gaza Strip let let's be clear
about let me be clear about something
right now this rhetoric I'm going to let
it go for now the idea is looking at all
the Arab surrounding Arab governments
who are collaborating with Israel as
sign that they hate Palestinians when
you do opinion polling in any of these
countries all of them including in Saudi
Arabia the overwhelming majority of the
population wants to cut off any talk
they want to isolate Israel
diplomatically they don't want to deal
with them the people of the region
absolutely oppose what Israel is doing
to Palestinians and the fact that you
can site a handful of governments in the
surrounding area who all effectively
belong to the US orbit and operate under
and get tremendous privilege and
financial privilege and security
privilege for collaborating with the
United States and and to try to paint
that as some sort of validation that
they have anti-palestinian sentiment I
think is is is completely ridiculous and
ignorant of the Dynamics that actually
exist in the region a region that I grew
up in by the way
what you have I grew up in Kuwait Jordan
Yemen Oman and the United Arab Emirates
and I visited Palestine on multiple
occasions gotcha wait you grew up in
Kuwait in what years was that when
Arafat was supporting Saddam Hussein I
was born in Kuwait in 1982 and I lived
there until that war and yes when Arafat
made statements in support of Saddam
Hussein that became the reason why many
Palestinians could not go back to which
was a really big deal too which is also
funny because those Oso courts we point
to Israel not being a good partner for
peace the only reason why those ooso
courts were so horrible is because arat
was desperately looking for a way back
into Palestinian popularity after suppor
saying when he speaking of Oslo yes and
you know what was also happening and the
reason why Oslo happened is because
while Arafat was looking for a way to
get validation as the leader of
Palestinians and come back Israel was
dealing with the fact that there is a
Palestinian Uprising the first inala
overwhelmingly nonviolent in which
Palestinians were doing Civil
Disobedience sometimes throwing rocks at
soldiers and Israel was brutalizing them
for year after year after they were they
killed so many of them that the Israeli
officials started being concerned about
the the Optics of it so they said don't
kill them beat them up and break their
arms instead and what you ended up with
I'm so curious I'm so much more what you
ended up with allow me to finish you
have to let me finish my thought every
now and then you end up with murder the
children I understand we get they
started beating up Palestinians
protesters and seeing them brutalizing
them and breaking their bones on video
and that ended up being an even bigger
disaster for Israel and they did not
know what to do with that civil uprising
of people who wanted to be free from
occupation and so they struck a deal
with Arafat and brought him in to
suppress the in on the fake and false
promise that they might Grant
Palestinians estate Arafat fell for it
and it was all a sham made to suck the
energy out of a genuine Palestinian
Uprising for freedom and to turn it into
the fraudulent Oslo process in which
Israel Had cover to expand more and more
settlements and entrench the occupation
under the pretense of Peace that's the
history of what happened so what could
Israel have done after October 7th that
would have been and I don't I don't want
to limp you into this Camp some people
said it's about proportionality what
could Israel have done after October 7th
that would have either been proportional
or given some of the legitimate points
that Stephen made about a densely
populated area where you have a military
and a civilian population crowded into
hospitals Etc what could Israel have
done what should they have done after
October 7th that would have been ajust
response and I promis I'll address that
directly but just on the context that
you just described before that you have
a situation in which there is it's it's
impossible to have a situation which
Hamas is fighting not in civilian areas
I mean when you talk about the
difference in power one side has a full
ledged military has Air Force has tanks
Hamas can't just go out the field and
confront them directly so they they
they you'd have to let me finish my
sentence every now and then Stephen
seriously like just try in the words of
Norman felstein try to have the
self-possession to just listen a little
bit more and in the style of nor seem be
wrong about everything yeah keep going
um you have a situation in which the
balance of power makes it so that those
militants have to effectively use
gorilla tactics and gorilla tactics
involve hiding in civilian areas that's
how that actually um that happens and if
you're really upset about that and you
think that that's a real problem by all
means arm Hamas the way you arm Israel
and then they can have military on
military war and we can spare the
Palestinian civilians if you think
that's really what's the underlying
motivation but of course nobody would
ever consider that we only arm the
criminals on one side with massive
armaments now on the question of what
Israel should have done there's two
separate questions that often get
conflated there's the question of is it
a just War to begin with and then
there's the question of proportion and
you can imagine if people in Gaza were
free and Israel was not controlling
their lives and deciding how much food
they get to eat and whether they can go
and come back and then some kind of
attack happened you might expect some
kind of Israeli retaliation and then the
only conversation would be about
proportionality are they doing it in a
way that is that is defensible and what
they're currently doing is obviously not
defensible to be devastating the
civilian population in order to thin
that population by the words of the
Israel's leader right now there's no
source that by the way which is it comes
from the red line it comes from isra
repor on
internal isra isra media when the
population has always had a calie
surplus even even the diet part calorie
Surplus they literally have that's why
when the famine started when all the
people were moved um I believe it was
unra that made the statement that this
is a region that isn't never experienced
before and that's also why Fon got mad
because if you s really wait these
people are starving by what metric you
can't that's what's so infuriating
Stephen is that you want to start
counting calories and try to discover
whether they have a surplus or or not
when you're missing the fact that Israel
getting to decide what food gets into
Gaza is itself outrageous one people
does not get to control whether another
side gets to have cookies for their
children potato chips or sodas you don't
get to do that that's a level of
dominance
OPAC but you're not capable of having it
because you w't even admit why the
blockade exists so you don't even
deserve to be in that you want to Adit
what do you want him to Adit why why is
there a in Gaza you tell me why is there
a blockade in Gaza when you look at the
fact that Israel is preventing cookies
from going into Gaza you know that it's
not motivated prevented from going in
Rockets fued with yeah with cookies yeah
with sugar and fertilizer yes that's how
they
made we're going to deny Palestinians
and Gaza sugar because it might be
used back in because more
sated he's not going I want to be clear
another time another thing you're not
going to admit why does the blockade
exist it's literally just
because to kill the am Fighters breathe
air to maybe Israel can restrict air
from going into Gaza to make sure that
he saying then the burden should be on
Hamas not to use Palestinians have no
agency just rape is is the language of
the oppressed they can't help themselves
civilian get military ones you don't
punish civilian populations
indiscriminately shooting tens of
thousands of rockets decade after decade
into Israel like what does population
like like like selling some of the
humanitarian food back population
digging up tunnels of of of water pipes
and using them to Fashion Rockets all
the international a bil tel tunel Sten
did you say that Hamas is turning
cookies into missiles my understanding
the reason for the U the reason for the
restricting of sugar- based products was
that the first generation I think they
were called castom Rockets were built in
really crude shops using combinations of
fertilizer and sugars that they would
use you know what the primary component
of Hamas Hamas explosives is now uh I
think I'm pretty sure now they use more
sophisticated stuff but I don't know you
tell me unexploded Israeli bombs because
they've dropped so many over the last
decade I doubt that's true I'm sure they
do 10 to with a 10 to 20% failure rate
Hamas then digs them up the theine 105s
that uh that you see uh you know blowing
up all these Israeli
tanks but I doubt the majority of them
are there's I'm sure there some amount
just to reate so than cookies
tell going I'm going to tell you why the
blockade exists and the Reason by the
way why it includes Banning cookies and
soda pop and potato chips yes the oros
aren't going into the gun no I'm sure
it's it's very funny children the
ability to eat chocolates and toys
because they are Palestinian and not
Israeli that's just so incredibly
incredibly trivial incredibly emal and
and potato it's working we're two we're
two more viry signal away from free
Palestinian people keep going it's you
trivializing if it was the other way
around if Hamas was imposing a Siege on
Israel in which Israeli children were
not allowed to do any of that stuff you
would not be sitting here making making
L of it it would not be trivial to you
because you understand that Israelis are
human beings and their children deserve
to eat potatoes potato chips Sor hold on
Jewish people live in Arab countries
around the
world they all how many when we talk
about the knock the expulsion OFW how
many Jew lived in the West Bank after 48
thank you thank you for the deflection I
didn't deflect I'm just answering your
your your let him answer about why the
black aade exists he's not he's got to
do the 52 different talking point
blockade exists oh my God okay the
blockade exists because they want to
punish the civilian population in Gaza
as a means of putting pressure on Hamas
they're saying as long as we have a
government in Gaza that does not play
ball with Israel the way the Palestinian
Authority plays ball with Israel and the
West Bank the civilian population is
going to suffer as a means of putting
pressure on them and getting somebody
else to to be in power the evidence for
that is overwhelming children's toys
were not allowed in at the beginning of
the blockade and when Israel came under
intense pressure under the futil after
the futil incident a bunch of activists
tried to basically Force medicines to be
delivered into incident there were two
of five of the ships were empty and they
were aggressive ships that were designed
to fight against the IDF when they
landed you realize that footage is
available there's 100 some people on the
deck with chairs throwing Israeli
soldiers over yeah and shift weapons and
everything
too I know well that was all they could
bring from turkey with them I guess they
were inspecting the boats but those were
not peaceful activist ships and if you
any of the reports if you open more than
a figlin book and read what actually
happened or watch any of the footage
actually
happen were they part of the fighters or
were they listen to yourself listen to
Listen to myself what you can watch the
videos there were people who yes fought
back when Israel bordered their ship in
an act of piracy in international why
Israel border the ship because they
don't want get to Gaza there you go
because there's a blockade and because
they announc don't get to announce they
don't get to impose that blockade they
absolutely do no no more than Hamas gets
to impose a blockade on Israel this is
ridiculous of course they don't get to
decide what ships get to go by the end
here he's saying that the blockade
exists because Jews are evil to no he's
there intentionally that's a Despicable
thing to say I'm not say anything about
Jews I'm talking about the Israeli
government policy being AB second were
submersibles or weapons brought in VIA
that uh via the water into the Gaza
Strip did that happen What talk say that
one more time were there weapons that
were shipped into the Gaza Strip via the
Mediterranean and plenty of weapons were
shipped into Israel as well oh that's
interesting so so there
was why is it that Egypt has been a
partner with Israel in that blockade
since it's Inception as well I've
already explained to you why the
Egyptian government is interested in for
20 years they've just been evil okay
okay everybody is is a this is it's this
is consistent at least with the history
that everybody is collaborators with the
west and and governments that are
transpar the
the Egyptian dictators
everybody say something I just honestly
there's one thing that I think is really
really important this you know just
saying that Jews are evil it's such a
Despicable line and let me explain why
anti-Semitism is a very very serious and
Rising problem in the country in many
other places around the world especially
in the Trump years we've seen these
shootings that have happened at
synagogues and everything like that not
middle
e and you have a situation in which
Israel's Defenders constantly try to
conflate those things is that you ignore
the fact that there is a significant
portion of the progressive Young
American Jewish population that is
opposed to Israeli policies and every
time he criticize Israeli policy people
say oh you're attacking Jews and that's
exactly what you just did and it's not
just harmful to people like me who get
smeared by that accusation completely
baseless and and really ugly and and
detestable probably more true know I
think but that's yeah of Omar thank
thank you thank you for that that
wonderful speculation um but it's also
actually harmful to Jewish communities
themselves that are trying to protect
themselves from anti-Semitism to
constantly trivialize that charge that
you throw it around at anybody who is
critical of Israeli policy anybody who
thinks that Palestinians are human
beings who deserve to have rights you
water that charge down so much when you
let them around that real anti-semites
get more room to breathe and operate
because that chart doesn't mean anything
so even if you enjoy smearing people
like me and people who defend
Palestinians that's fine but if you have
any part of you that actually cares
about Jewish people in this country I
would strongly advise you to stop
throwing that smear around at people
because okay I'll do my virtue signal
since you did yours um I got asked an
interesting question on my way up here
um from the is it Max Max producer Mac
not or not Max Mac he asked me why I was
so interested in this conflict and one
of the things that I think is so sad is
I think of all the things that I've ever
looked at my entire life this is one
where you can pick and choose facts from
one side and you can build the most
compelling anti- Palestinian argument or
you can build the most compelling
anti-israeli argument and I don't think
I've ever seen anything where you can
have such a one-sided telling of the
history um as I have for this particular
conflict I think the really sad thing
here is that I think that there are
really good criticisms that can be made
of Israel I think there are really good
criticism you can make of their past
policy and I think that the story of the
Palestinian is an incredibly empathetic
one I think that there are reasons why
um you could support uh violence in 47
violence in 48 Wars in 67 um I think you
can support all of these things from a
really empathetic understanding place
but the issue is that both sides are so
invested in telling their story and
making money and making videos and
making whatever off of their particular
side of things that you never will never
ever ever ever have that conversation so
for instance uh this is why identifying
root causes is so important uh when we
talk about the blockade the blockade
exists because during the second inata
there was a lot of Weaponry that came in
to Gaza from the Mediterranean and from
Egypt this is a problem that Egypt
recognized a problem that Israel
recognized that's why the blockade
existed especially after uh the
Palestinian Authority was not able to
bring Hamas under control and Hamas
gained control of that region Israel
said well this we're going to on
point on point I don't want to interrupt
you
there's one thing so when before the
flua incident they were not allowing
certain food items from going in and
children's toys 200 right we're talking
yeah yeah no but just I want you to
explain to me and then after that
incident and Israel came under pressure
they started allowing a little bit more
humanitarian stuff to go into Gaza is
that because Hamas stopped being a
threat to Israel or is that because
those humanitarian goods are actually
not a threat and Israel did not give a
about them anyway apart from
wanting to punish my guess would be is
probably because the Israeli
restrictions were too much and they
probably could have calmed the down
right now Israel is in the position it's
in because Israel thinks that they can
maintain an indefinite status quo and
more or less slowly Annex the West Bank
that's Israel's goal the problem with
this conflict has always been that
Israel wants to fight forever because
the longer they fight the more of the
West Bank they get to Annex the only
reason the Abraham Accords happened was
because it was to Stave off annexation
of the West Bank and the problem is that
while Israel wants to continue fighting
to gain more and more people like you
have deluded Palestinians and think if
they fight they can gain more and more
too only one only one side pal whatever
that means okay one side conflict what
does it mean to you Palestinian there a
lot of people that became Palestinian
after uh depending on what the conflict
is so I don't know what that means I
don't really care that much um the the
the idea that the idea that both sides
can continue to fight only serves one
side and that's the Israeli side the
longer the Palestinians continue to
fight the more the Israelis are going to
G because the reality is is the Arab
states around them are bored they don't
want to fight the leadership doesn't
want to fight anymore they're not going
to they did at one point which is I
think the most tragic thing is that
Palestinians were a tool of the
surrounding states to fight with Israel
and that's the most they ever cared
about that's
why that's why if you go to these
surrounding countries and you ask that's
crazy there are so many Palestinian
refugees here I wonder why they don't
ever like take any of them in as like
actual citizens and the reason why is
because in the Arab states you're not
allowed to they don't give citizenship
to those people because they use them as
a tool to fight with Israel and that's
why they're not even allowed to do it
they're they're banned from actually
giving citizenship to end these
Palestinian so even the whole Refugee
crisis is inflated more than it should
be but the issue is that when you look
at these sides and you go to criticize
the policies okay I I bring it back to
the blockade that BL that blockade
existed because weapons were coming into
the Gaza Strip uh via the ocean via the
land routes so if that's the reason why
the blockade came in here's I think that
you can make an incredibly powerful
argument that listen Netanyahu if you
want to destroy Hamas that's fine but
one of the conditions of eliminating
Hamas has to be the lifting of the
blockade because with Hamas gone your
justification for the blockade is
completely and totally non-existent in
my world in your world the blockade
never leaves because the only reason
it's there is to punish Palestinian
citizens so if you're constantly
screaming at a government hey you need
to take this blockade away because you
just hate Palestinian why would they
ever remove it there's there's
absolutely no desire to there's no
reason to why would they but if the if
the argument is well we said that the
blockade existed because weapons were
going into a hostile Administration well
now that that hostile Administration has
gone and we allowed you to remove it at
Great cost both to infrastructure and
civilian life well now we can say hey
they're gone you have to lift the
blockade now there's no justification
for it so we have a real analysis of
what's going on we can Levy legitimate
criticisms we can look for legitimate
Solutions but if the arguments are
delusional that Israel is here
indiscriminately murdering tons of
people because they're evil or because
they hate Jews or or they hate
Palestinians or hate Arabs or whatever
or they're racist or islamophobic
there's no solution to be had because
because in your world the hatred runs so
deep it's intractable Crystal's lipstick
just fell over that's all it was Panic
so this is It's funny some bits of that
narrative actually were kind of like
close to reality but just let me let me
fix a couple of things for you first of
all if you're saying that a precondition
for lifting The Siege is that Hamas has
to not be in power anymore you have that
backwards the occupation of Gaza exist
existed before Hamas was created the
occupation created Hamas wait when was
the the blockade wasn't since the
occupation yeah I mean the occupation
itself needed to end they replaced the
occupation with the siege that's what
they did and no no the the blocket
started in like 2005 yes so they
withdrew it's been occupied since 48 and
remains exact no Gaza has been occupied
since 1967 Gaza been Ed since
1948 what are you talking about Israel
took over Gaza in 1967 who took over at
194 48 the Egyptians did yes it was
occupied by the Egyptians this okay see
this is the I know you don't like to
talk about that because it's not
convenient but that's true it wasn't a
Palestinian State who cares the point is
who cares the Palestinians were they had
a fake government for one year that was
Rec to Cairo and immediately disbanded
and it became a training for Fett let
call let me then call for an end to the
Egyptian occupation of Gaza too oh wait
it ended great so now let's talk about
the Israeli occupation of Gaza it
started in 1967 it has continued and all
Israel did is withdraw settlers out of
Gaza and replace that settlers on the
ground with an occupation from the
outside that's why nearly every
International Organization still
considers Gaza occupied even after they
would Drew settlers and place it under
occupation according to just about every
UN agency the EU just the list goes on
on human rights organizations as well
and so the idea then that you need
something to change and that Israel
would lift The Siege in Gaza frankly if
Netanyahu came and said to Hamas if you
agree to no longer be in power we're
going to let Gaza be completely you can
have an airport you can have a seport
you can just like have the population
live I suspect Hamas might actually be
up for that in fact they would consider
it a feather on their cap they can say
see we've delivered something for you
absolutely not they would't even agree
to a permanent ceasefire why would you
think that in exchange for Israel ending
the devastation of Gaza they they've
offered it a million times to release
old hostages yeah it's it's it's they've
offered it repeatedly and it's kind ofun
let me to be clear you're saying that if
Israel said they would end the blockade
that Hamas would step down as leadersh
if they were to leave Gaza absolutely I
think that that would actually are you
sure that are you sure that the claim
isn't that they need to have a 10year
truce or that they need to recognize a
two-state solution where the refugees
are brought back this is them as a
governing body early on when they were
signaling that they're actually
interested in in in
moderating in the late 2000s this is
before they attempted to coup abbas's
Palestinian author P the West Bank I
remember right before they attempted C
you don't know what you're talking about
it's so incredible there was an attempt
actually at driving Hamas out of power
that they then flipped and pushed the
Palestinian Authority out as part of a
plot that is documented I think it was
Vanity Fair that's true but you're
talking about 2005 when there were there
was going to be
International yes but but theas tried to
the Palestinian in the West Bank a few
years later when they right after they
announced their Unity government it's
great that you've done some reading and
you can throw out random factoids but
please I sucks when the history like
please try to listen to what I'm saying
to you so you can actually understand go
back to the broken bones okay I'm not
I'm not I'm not trying to throw up
random facts that I've read I'm trying
to explain something to you and I really
hope that you would actually just make
an effort to listen to what I'm
describing okay there was an effort by
Hamas at the time to try to moderate and
khed Michel wrote a piece in the
Washington Post here in the US talking
about how you know we don't like the
idea of a two-state solution but if we
put it to our referendum and
Palestinians want it we'll accept it and
whatever like there's there's all kinds
of stuff signs and what Israel did is
put a suffocating blockade on Gaza and
said you have to denounce renounce
violence even though Israel does not
renounce violence they said you have to
recognize Israel even though Israel does
not recognize Palestine and they said
you have to stick by all previous
agreements even though Israel was
obviously not sticking to any agreements
they had made with Palestinians in terms
of just clearly entrenching the
occupation left and right at at at every
opportunity and so Hamas said no those
are not acceptable demands and that's
how we ended up being stuck in the
situation where hamas's refusal to
accept whatever Israel wants to meet out
to them is the reason why that blockade
got entrenched and intensed and and and
became more and more punishing as as a
means of of um trying to place more
political pressure on Hamas and the idea
that now if only Hamas would agree to
XYZ then everything would be great in
Gaza there's just no reason to believe
that because the occupation and what
Israeli military officials and security
officials and political officials were
talking about when they actually
withdrew from Gaza was very
transparently a plot to deny Palestinian
statehood that they're seeing this is a
strategic move that will be useful for
them you you said as much as yourself
that the Israel's goal is to prolong the
conflict so they can continue to so he's
right about that if I can I can so what
are acceptable terms now I mean there
are ongoing negotiations happening right
now what should AC acceptable terms be
right now end of the conflict or for
actual resolution of the Israeli
Palestinian Conflict for the end of the
conflict for for this one Hamas has to
go ideally the hostages would come back
but I don't even know if we know how
many are alive at this point I think
that Israel initially wanted 40 and now
they I think turned it down to 33
because they don't think that they're
enough alive that even meet the
conditions that they have um but yeah
Hamas needs to go I imagine my
understanding is Israel still wants to
go into Rafa right I think they've
they've reiterated as much um I support
it I think Hamas needs to go I think
that's um hopefully they do it without
costan life but I think yeah Hamas has
to leave but I would hope that after
after Hamas is gone I think that Israel
has to change their approach to the area
um I think that Israel right now is on
the verge of a very strange existential
threat where they're getting consumed by
their own um I don't know if I would say
fear or just they need to the
the in the early history of Israel the
reason why Israel was able to thrive so
much and make friends in the west and
win Wars against the Waring Arab states
is because they two arms of military and
diplomacy that they wielded both
incredibly effectively um Israel was one
of the first Nations to identify the
United States as an important emerging
power and try to win favor with them
like like they did a lot diplomatically
and a lot militarily but I think um ever
since peace with Egypt Jordan the ABR I
think that Israel is just like now they
don't care they're just going to try to
maintain a status quo indefinitely
because on a military level they're
really not threatened anymore they
pretend that it's always an existential
threat when it comes to conflict but
that's not true Hezbollah the houthis uh
and and and everybody in the Gaza Strip
can invade all at wants and is bat him
away it's not a huge deal the
existential threat I think that Israel
faces now is is a political one it's a
diplomatic one because the situation the
status quo is not tenable and the
conditions on October 7th were entirely
I don't want to say like completely
foreseeable but like what do you think
is going to happen if you're
continuing this status quo over and over
and over again and then the the really
funny thing is we talk about we're so
obsessed with the uh they're trying to
ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip they
want to kick Palestinian out Jews don't
care about the gods of strip they want
to kick people out of Judea Judea and
Samaria that's what Jews really care
about it's that encroachment into the
West B we're not even talking about that
anymore because now everybody thinks
that apparently they want to put
settlements back in the Gaza Strip which
historically Israel's never even cared
about so yeah I I mean Hamas has to go I
would hope that the black a and and the
conditions are lessened there but there
has to be huge pressure on Israel and
the Palestinians there has to be huge
pressure on both sides to reach some
peaceful long-term agreement because
until that happens I mean it's just
going to happen over and over and over
again to nobody's surprised so just when
we speak about hostages I think it's
important to not that Israel rounded up
tens of thousands of Palestinians um at
least thousand I don't want to say tens
of thousands but thousands of them um
after October 7th they are being
brutalized in Israeli detention
facilities um dozens of them have been
killed many more have required
amputations and the reports of the
torture of the sexual abuse all this
stuff is happening and you don't get a
fraction of attention to Palestinian
hostages being held by Israel compared
to the conditions that Israel uh Israeli
hostages are enduring in Gaza which are
unknown and on top of that you have an
Israeli policy of insisting on this path
of Vengeance in which they have killed
infinitely more Israeli hostages and
they have rescued and to continue down
this path it's quite obvious that the
Israeli government and Netanyahu himself
does not give a crap about Israeli
hostages so just keeping that in in in
back of mind now when we're talking
about peace and it's funny the reason
why I wanted to point out that you've
said a lot of things that are actually
correct but you just kind of like missed
a key part of it is that yes the longer
this conflict goes Palestinians do lose
more and more and Israel sees that as an
advantage every day the conflict goes on
they get to take more and more of the
West Bank they get to entrench their
control of it and that's why desperately
need an intervention and if Israel is
not going to do it itself you need it
from the outside the way to defeat Hamas
if we're serious about not wanting Hamas
to be in power it's extremely simple
give Palestinians a path to
freedom and they will take it rather
than be driven by despair into
supporting groups that insist on doing
it the most violent way possible the
truth is Palestinians tried it with a
March of return they've tried it with
negotiations with Israel they've gone to
the UN the US keeps vetoing every UN
resolution that is critical of Israel
they've gone to the international Court
of Justice the ICC the US keeps putting
pressure on the ICC not to prosecute
Israel for crimes and then when people
try to do International solidarity and
boycotts people call that economic
terrorism and you have American
politicians trying to pass laws just
every single method of resistance has
been completely quashed and civil
disobedience in Palestine was extremely
common against the apartheid barrier
that Israel is building throughout the
West Bank um and all these people are
basically just end up languishing in
Israeli prisons you've left Palestinians
no Avenue and if you want to be serious
about defeating you know more radical
organizations that are committed to
violence all you have to do is Pal give
Palestinians a path to Freedom that does
not push them in the arms of people who
insist that fighting is the only way and
that has to be stopping US military
funding for the Israeli occupation this
occupation is illegitimate it's
indefensible it's clearly intended to be
permanent Netanyahu has said so the way
it appears on the ground is not some
kind of like temporary thing we're just
holding off until every day they're
taking more and more of the West Bank
that is what they're doing they're
demolishing Palestinian homes they're
Palestinians out of certain areas that
Israel wants just the entrenchment of it
we're watching it unfolding and there
should not be another Penny spent in
support of the Israel military until
that occupation comes to an end and
that's how you can put Israel finally in
a position where they have an incentive
to start negotiating in good faith
seeing Palestinians as as equal human
beings paradoxically I think that that
actually would be a boost uh to Israeli
Society because under current Israeli
politics you have some who say we need
to compromise you know we live here they
live here we're all going to live here
you know for hundreds of years we need
to come to some uh deal and then you
have a faction in Israeli society that
says uh no we don't because we have
unconditional us support militarily and
politically so we'll we can just
permanently quote unquote manage the
conflict and voters look at that and
they say well it's true the US does
unconditionally support so why should we
actually you know make make any
compromises and it has driven them into
this uh this culdesac that is
potentially suicide tile for the entire
project I think the issue is that people
don't realize that the way that Israeli
opinion flipped so hard on peace for
Palestinians was after the second anata
that completely mind destroyed so many
Israeli people when they saw so many
Palestinians across the entire country
engaging in violence against Israeli
people a lot of them were like this is
it like this is apparently these people
just don't ever want peace after that I
think that that's when you saw the
government start to shift a lot to the
right and the issue is that you just it
doesn't feel like there has been that
Palestinian leader that's been ready to
come up and actually make brave
concessions or strong concessions um
because every deal with a Palestinian
feels like a concession was not all of
Israel I just don't think Palestinians
all of the occupied territories just to
be technical the which occupied ones the
West Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem the
internationally recognized occupied
territories that Israel has to withdraw
from that's what Arafat has said and
that's what abasa said I'm a fan of
neither of these men but they're not the
obstacle to peace they made very clear
that they would accept a deal with
Israel actually ended the occupation is
never accepted a deal of course he has
no deal there are no deals on the table
no deals left on the table where the
Palestinian like we would just have
accepted this sing I happen to be
familiar with a private conversation
between Bill Clinton and somebody that I
know and advocate in which Bill Clinton
said that Arafat just kept saying 22% is
my offer and Bill Clinton had no idea
what he was talking about and the person
who was talking to him explained to him
22% is the percentage of the land that
is illegally occupied by Israel Arafat
was telling you and the occupation of
the West Bank Gaza and East Jerusalem
that was the counter offer repeatedly
and Israel never counter offer what do
you it's the entire basis of the peace
process that's not that was not in 2000
no absolutely not they Arafat in 19 in
the late 80s recognized Israel so he
effectively conceded Israel on 78% of
historic Palestine as legally defined
reced yes yes and Israel then if well if
you wanted to call his bluff all you had
to do is end the occupation and see what
happens but Israel didn't Israel
entrenched the occupation that's the
pattern and also missing something about
the regional Dynamic you're talking
about the Abraham Accords and all of
that just to be clear the entire Arab
world first it was Saudi Arabia put on
the table something called the Arab
peace initiative effectively and the
occupation will get recognition from us
and then wait what was the huge part
wait what was the huge part of the Arab
peace initiative they you're not
bringing up there you tell me which it
was the infinite right of return for
every single for every single
Palestinian
refugee confus negotiate that no no no
that's a non-negotiable that was one of
the reasons why the why the why the uh
after Camp David after the Clinton
perameters after taba Summit that was
the statement left in rejection of the
Clinton perimeters where they said we as
negotiators will never give up the right
of Arabs to return patri what was
offered what was offered in that Arab
peace initiative first it was Saudi and
then it became the Arab League it said a
just resolution to the Palestinian
refugees always and that phrasing no it
has not always meant that that phrasing
was specifically designed when we talk
about a two State solution and a just
resolution to the refugee issue it's not
saying and the full R of return that is
considered a Palestinian compromise like
many Palestinians are unhappy with it on
the grounds that it doesn't say the full
R of return it only says res resolution
is a just resolution one one in which
it's understood that you would allow for
a two-state situation to happen means
Israel recognizes that they drove those
Palestinians out a small symbolic number
gets to return to Israel proper and then
the majority of them end up in a
Palestinian state that was the loose
formula that if you look at was offered
in 2000 it was not what was offered in
it literally was there was an
international fund that Israel was going
to contribute to there was some number I
I saw anywhere from 10 to 100,000 I
don't know what the there some number
the occupation that's basically what
Palestinians have been asking for and if
you look at actual details of it and I'm
happy again to tweet about it afterwards
I'm happy to send you all the links that
you need that was what the Palestinian
official position was
official let me just respond to one of
the things that you a point that you
made earlier in the form of a question
that a lot of people i' I've seen it out
there so I think it's worth kind of
trying to trying to answer directly you
said uh it can't be a genocide uh
because they've only killed 33,000
people um you know if they wanted to do
a full genocide they have the capacity
they have the bombs to kill all two
million plus people so kind of a m
argument five of their population right
right why wouldn't they do it uh and so
one you'd say well 13,000 children far
far too many but uh you know more more
importantly than that you would say they
they've killed the number that they can
sort of get away with at this point but
the goal is not killing and death the
the goal is domination and the ethnic
cleansing of the region the clearing out
the thinning out of the population and
so you don't actually need to kill 2
million Palestinians if you can drive
hundreds of thousands of them to other
countries want I mean if you're talking
about genocide you you can have a
genocide with 100 people theoretically
the the number of people killed isn't
important the intention is important but
it's hard to make an argument for
genocide set we're not setting aside
genocide oh sure well I mean like the
the attacks happen in response to but
that would be that would be the answer
to the question why haven't they killed
more
yeah I guess but the problem is just
absent any there just isn't strong it's
the weirdest genocide ever if you're
dropping leaflets saying hey Fleet to
the South most of the military activi is
going to come to the North or hey we're
working with 52 organizations try to
open up borders to getas is generally in
the South why why did they bomb the
north Hamas is generally Hamas is
everywhere no hamas's like military
stronghold is has always been the
South there were literally 900 people
that they what happened to the by the
way what happened to that three story 3D
in of a command center that we saw under
shiffa Hospital the one with the do you
mean the one where they released the
footage of the massive tunnel the bomb
shelter that there are tunnels yeah in
Gaza but where was the command center
that we were all told existed I don't
when you're saying Command Center are
you looking for like
a I'm not the one intelligence has
corroborated everything that Israel said
and they said they arrived at oh that's
nice of us intelligence well listen if
you can believe Russia and Hamas instead
of the United States of
is I can't I can't help you hold on if
you want to believe hold on actually
wait I'm curious if Hamas were to make a
statement about a particular thing would
you believe that more than the United
States and the IDF corroborating their
statements who would you believe more on
that I don't think you can trust either
of them that's why you have to look you
think equal amounts of trust I think yes
that's about equal amounts of distrust
that's an unbelievably
statement hold on I'm who do you trust
then for your for a third party
verification human rights organizations
report re report things from the IDF and
from Hamas you realiz that they look
they do independent investigations as
well and they comparon they're
independent inves have you ever read how
they actually come up with the numbers
they'll call a hospital and say what's
your list of people that are dead and
then they look at the register and they
go oh well it seems like the names exist
and they write it it's the same thing
that you do with polling and population
counting and stuff you take samples and
based on that you extrapolate you can't
go and investigate every single Las
thing that happen doing sample work and
all of that that would be in that's not
what they do if you read how these ngos
actually then they conclude their
methodology on you can read they'll say
we contact they'll say this has been
third partyy investigator Hamas has
10,000 but also these guys actually
third party verified and then read their
methodology say we contacted the G and
health Ministry and they told us I like
you know what's interesting and you know
what's really interesting is that every
time the human rights organizations try
to go in and investigate Hamas says we
welcome a full investigation the Israeli
government tries to block human rights
organizations they welcome a full
investigation this is when when amnesty
inter go down and interview people and
they say some of them were kind of
nervous to talk to us why isn't amas
open any archives so that we can
externally validate what's going to that
country nonsense use Pew is just it's
inred what did I just say that was
nonsense Hamas has reported on multiple
occasions that they have basically
verified The credibility of the people
who are talking to them that they are
talking to because they have been
willing to criticize Hamas and say we
disagree with Hamas is doing we disagree
with the firing Rockets they are brutal
they are repressive so they talk to
Palestinians who are perfectly willing
to criticize Hamas for being terrible
but then they say but it's not true that
they were hiding in our house or used
human Shields or whatever so that's how
you know that when you compare those
narratives it's the Israeli narrative
that is completely baseless do you
acknowled real quick do you acknowledge
thaty International has said that they
store Munitions in houses I'll on to
that I'll on houses which is a very
important difference this is from
earlier this month an interrogation of
an Islamic Jihad fighter and I'm
genuinely curious this is not a leading
question at all asked by the
interrogator of this Islamic Israeli
interrogator of this
Islamic in isra that's why I'm asking
yeah in Israel detention in torture asks
which hospitals Islamic Jihad and Hamas
operate in he says all of the hospitals
yeah now Omar to the to Ryan's Point
what's your response to that yeah I mean
just when you look at the levels of
torture that happened inside Israeli
detention it's just you can't take
anything at base value of what comes out
of any confessions that come out from
people who are being interrogated by
Israel and so that to me is completely
meaningless yes if you put me in an
Israel interrogation Center I might also
confess to whatever the hell the Israel
military want do you acknowledge that
alifa hospital was inhabited by a
ton of Fighters a month ago when they
did that massive inhabited by a ton
of Fighters I think I can't verify and
were inhabited by any Fighters there
were 900 arrested 500 yeah and and there
were there were Mass graves in near the
unuser hospital that were filled with
people who are wearing that where people
have been buried there four months
earlier with their hands tied behind
their back zip tied can you explain to
me what threat people who have ini
reporting by Al was completely totally
by people that
were geolocator is an oen account on
Twitter that like has looked at a ton of
videos you can go you can look through
every single video my Twitter account is
is who debunk those is that is that
we're doing buy a Twitter account you
can look at all the videos yourself if
you don't you don't trust the IDF you
don't trust the United States you don't
TR who you TR
and Trust human rights organizations
whose job is to investigate these things
I don't think any human rights
organizations un said 100% we found alaz
has re reported what Hamas has said they
can't say it's 100% because Israel will
not let them in and they can't actually
go in and investigate in a current
active war zone do for alifa do you
acknowledge that there was a huge two we
fight there between the IDF and
militants yes near alifa hospital I
think there was a fight and alifa
Hospital yeah I don't know that it was
inside the hospital certainly there were
there were horror stories of what was
happening inside the hospital
F
civilians there's a very clear I think
disconnect here that is probably a good
point to start getting to not start
getting to but like if we want to wind
down here Stephen you said that
Palestinians fundamentally don't want
peace it sounds to me also Omar like you
think
fundamentally the Israeli government as
it is right now does not want peace I
think we can both agree there's sub
billions in the Palestinian territories
and in Israel that would like to live in
peace can I can I amend just real quick
if I've said that it's not peace nobody
wants peace that's a thing that we say
in the west because we're we have no
concept of what anybody's looking for
people want Justice right in Ukraine
they could end the war right now for
peace but they want their territory they
want Justice Palestinians could say
listen we're going to go with the
whatever plan where we're broken up into
20 enclaves and of peace they don't want
peace they feel like they've been
expelled from their homelands with
international support for Israel for no
reason they want justice so to be clear
everybody wants Justice right so they
don't want peace yes well the
what is the MLK quote like a um the the
white moderate one that says where Some
people prefer an uneasy pece or whatever
to an uncomfortable uh tension or
whatever uh there's there's ways to to
make things peaceful but but people want
more than that on both sides and they
should I just think that I think tell me
if you in the end agree with the point
that I was making because I haven't
heard a counter to it that the way to
defeat the ideology of Hamas is through
peace not through War it's a now I will
sound racist I don't want to sound
racist but there's a fundamental
misunderstanding of the way that Arab
states and Arab people in the Middle
East View Jews and Israel and to just
assume that being nice and peaceful as
then there is a whole Mythos a whole
mythology this would have been super
fascinating to uh listen tolin expand on
if he was capable of more than insults
and atoms but there is a completely and
totally different retelling of history
from that region from the 1880s onwards
and as long as those histories are
separate from each other there is no
reconciliation that can ever happen I
shouldn't even take this seriously but
if Arabs are just fundamentally racist
hold on wait wait hold on I just I mean
the citizens that live in these places
if the citizens that live in these
places are just fundamentally racist why
is it the case that when peace is close
at hand support for Hamas and armed
resistance
plummets well I because I think that if
they're fundamentally just opposed I'm
say there fundamentally when they look
at Israel and and and the Jewish people
there the view from a lot of Arabs is
why does their view change when peace
gets closer wouldn't it be the opposite
if they fundamentally just want to fight
with Israel
wouldn't they actually be more
bloodthirsty as peace approached yet
opinion polls consistently show that
support for armed resistance plummets as
peace becomes more possible that is the
reverse of what would happen if they
were fundamentally a violent there two
things so one you said it correct
earlier that even though countries have
foreign peace a lot of the Arabs in
these countries still don't like Israel
and still don't like the Jews so that's
one thing that even through peace that
opinion has remained consistent you said
that that is true they're chomping it a
bit to normalize with Israel the what
these Arab countries are chomping it a
bit to normalize with is you're going to
say it's the leaders right that's true
and in your case also the contradiction
is is is quite palpable which on on the
one hand everybody in the region is just
fed up with the Palestinians and and
they're just eager to make peace with
Israel and now it's like the problem is
that the people in the region just don't
like Jews well no it's it's it's which
one is it well it's it's both I think
that over time yeah sure so one is
sometimes Brave leaders are the people
that are needed to to make progress
towards peace um this might come in the
form towards Justice or peace uh towards
Justice whatever towards like bilateral
have an answered that question though
when when when peace becomes closer in
the moments where there's news that a
deal is getting closer yes support for
armed resistance among Palestinians goes
down that's the reverse of what would be
the case if they just fundamentally
hated Jews and just wanted violence you
we to teas part when I say that they
fundamentally have these opinions I
don't mean that they want to and go to
war forever I'm just saying that there
is anab Mythos around Jews that all of
them basically believe in in terms of
their they're European transplants that
have unlimited support from the West for
whatever action they want to do and they
don't belong there um and then there's
like a different telling of historical
events that happen that doesn't mean
that peace is impossible it doesn't mean
that there's not ways to work out we've
seen peace treaties have happened they
just require very strong uh leadership
and sometimes those leaders even have to
pay the price so for instance when Sadat
made peace with uh Israel he was
assassinated because they thought he was
a western sell out um like and it
happened to the to the Israeli leader as
well who was also assassinated by a far
right Zionist for that peace skill so
peace is possible it just it takes
really strong Brave leadership to do it
Arafat was never that leader you should
feel that especially especially
fromat was never isn't that leader
either he certainly was not a
rejectionist as far as here what I want
to do I want to toss to Omar for closing
thoughts and then we'll go back to you
Stephen sure Omar all right so when we
talk about just just set up the regional
Dynamic real quick um you have have the
region in general the people of the
region are extremely Furious of the way
Israel treats Palestinians that is the
primary reason behind the hostility that
exists towards Israel is because people
see day in and day out on their TV sets
what is happening unlike in the United
States where you can barely see that
kind of thing on on mainstream media Al
jazer does broadcast what Israel is
doing to Palestinians and they get a
very very clear and accurate view of
what Palestinians are suffering under
and so the people in the region are in
solidarity with Palestinians against
that brutal occupation against their
replacement the ethnic cleansing and
slow motion that happened in in some
cases not in slow motion in in
particular periods in in Israel's
history and they see this fundamental
Injustice day in and day out on that
level of racism and they're enraged by
it but you also have a lot of
governments in the region that are us
clients they're on the US team in the
loose sense of the word and this is
uncomfortable for them they want this
conflict to end because they would
rather be on better terms with Israel
and the United States they want that
Dynamic to end and so they also want
this conflict to end
which is why we had things like the Arab
peace initiative they want to see um
just an end to the occupation just give
the Palestinians something L can we
please like make this work and Israel
faced that with complete and total
rejection over and over again because
you have the political end of this uh
the political Spectrum within Israel
right now is just completely off the
charts yes you have some super
Progressive marginal leftists in Israel
you've got the Palestinian citizens of
Israel who sering the Israeli KET and
and and so on and they have um a no
power effectively in Israeli society and
the bulk of it ranges from the Netanyahu
bangir Coalition which is stomped
Palestinians until no end brutalize them
in the worst ways possible and hopefully
throw them out and finish the neba
towards the other liberal end of the
Spectrum in in the Israeli sense which
is just maintain permanent occupation
but let it be a Humane occupation let's
just you know control them and let
everything be fine and yeah we don't
won't give them full rights but they can
at least you know have some economic
activity and whatever normalize a little
bit that's the Spectrum and that
Spectrum will never allow for peace to
exist because no no people anywhere in
the world would accept to live without
the fundamental right to be free and
that's what's missing here and because
you do have a dynamic right now where
that cannot peace cannot emerge in
direct negotiations between Israelis and
Palestinians because yes there's a lot
of intense feelings right now but on top
of that there's a significant imbalance
of power that if you leave them you're
going to end up with a repeat of
previous peace negotiations which is
Israel saying yeah yeah let's negotiate
while on the ground they do whatever the
hell they want keep entrenching the
occupation eating up more land
brutalizing Palestinians more but saying
hey we're negotiating it's just it's
it's all it's all a charade and what you
need right now is pressure from the
outside I don't care whether you like
Palestinians or hate them or you think
they're this or that or same with
Israelis it's just it's besides the
point you have a reality right now in
which Palestinians are living under
permanent apartheid occupation and
apartheid and this particular episode in
Gaza right now is a genocidal episode as
an emergency we need to put an end to
this Gaza episode but the situ situation
was not acceptable even before the
onslaught that is unfolding in Gaza you
have a situation in which Israel denies
Palestinians the right to live in their
own State and denies them full rights
even under the areas that Israel
controls so they're stuck forever either
as subjects with no rights and they can
either take that and be happy with it or
if they try to fight back in any way
then Israel will just escalate its
violence to levels that are absolutely
horrific those are the choices the
Palestinians face and it requires
external intervention it requires the
world to isolate Israel and say this is
not acceptable this occupation cannot
end you have to end that occupation and
that means that you don't get another
Penny no diplomatic relations no Embrace
of Israel until there's a change of in
in Israeli policy and when you look at
Russia and Ukraine right now just we've
had a very brief episode of that
comparatively speaking when you compare
the two things there are instances in
which Ukraine for example I think it was
December fired a uh a rocket at belgrad
and killed a couple of dozen Russian
citizens including three children if in
resp respon to that the United States
said Putin has the right to defend
himself and we're going to give him
unlimited arms to fight against Ukraine
everybody would just laugh at you
instantly you would be laughed out of
the room because that's such a
ridiculous thing to say so pointing at
Hamas violence and saying that the
response is we give Israel unlimited
weapons to defend themselves when the
broader context is Israel is invading
and occupying Palestinians and robbing
them of their basic rights and
brutalizing them and killing them and
imprisoning them and torturing them that
in this context you're going to refer to
Israel's right to self-defense is is a
joke home Intruder who breaks into
somebody's home with a gun does not get
to claim self-defense when they're
inside that house if the people inside
that house get to fight back
Palestinians are fighting for their land
that Israel is not entitled to taking
Israel does not belong there and it's
time to isolate Israel until that
occupation comes to an end and that's
the only path in which we're going to
see Israel moderate the reason why
sentiments in Israel are so extreme is
because the US has provided complete and
total impunity for Israel nobody can
ever hold Israel accountable for
anything they've done because the US
ensures that accountability cannot
happen and that's precisely why we've
seen the Israeli Spectre move to an
extreme and in response to that brutal
extreme that is imposed on top of
Palestinians you're seeing more extreme
views also occurring among Palestinians
the corrective is incredibly obvious and
is impossible to miss if you're being
intellectually honest and understand
what's actually unfold so your last word
wouldn't wouldn't cutting off uh US
military aid and and blanket
unconditional political support push
Israel toward a compromise I don't think
we have blanket unconditional support
for Israel I think were to do certain
things I think they would lose uh they'd
lose they'd lose internal support pretty
quickly um a lot of the people you like
to quote harat B Salam are literally
hosted in Israel these are Israeli
organizations um just one thing before
my final statement do you think that
October 7th was justified the attack and
do you think civilians were targeted on
that day I mean there if you separate it
out the part where they attacked Israeli
military could be construed as an active
resistance store but the part where they
attacked civilians is completely
unjustifiable of course they attack
civilians of course that's completely
indefensible so I think that's pretty
straight okay okay I think that the um I
think that the big I think the big issue
when this conflict is talked about is
that it feels like people only ever want
to tell one side of the story that we
can't have a conversation on why does
the blockade exist we can't have a
conversation on what does Hamas do to
induce civilian death because Hamas
wants civilians to die in Palestine more
than Israelis do um why can't we have a
conversation about why I know you're
going to get the last word you mind if
interject on this point interject all
you want go ahead human rights
organizations have also by the way it
was officially Israeli policy to use
Palestinian civilians as human shields
uh they've done it in the West Bank for
many years arguing they have the legal
right to do yeah they were arguing for
it the Israeli Supreme Court Bandit I
mean do it the Israeli Supreme crazy
hang on hang on I'm giving some context
just I think it just hear me out this is
a thought that I'm going to piece
together that I think will be useful for
you to to think about a little bit sure
it was official policy um there was a
case in which a Palestinian got killed
because they do home raids in which the
first person knocking on the door is the
Palestinian with the Israelis like
standing behind them with the guns to
try to get somebody to come out and
cooperate and whatever and they don't
want to be shot at and when the Israeli
Supreme Court tried to ban it the
Israeli military St M was Furious said
this is a really important method of
combat it protects the soldiers lives
You Can't Ban it and you know Israel
that basically disregarded what the
military establishment said it was sha
mofas who was the uh defense minister at
Israel at the time all of this was
happening I think it was in 2005 and
even though the Supreme Court officially
banned it human rights organizations
keep catching Israel engaging in Acts of
holding Palestinians as human shields in
Gaza and the West Bank couple weeks yes
it happen and and you see it like
there's footage sometimes of holding a
Palestinian with a gun over his shoulder
it doesn't kill
them which is the point you're making
you're making my point yes very quickly
if the Israeli military thinks holding
Palestinian civilians in front of them
when they're fighting with Hamas saves
the Israeli soldiers lives it tells you
that they don't believe their own lies
about Hamas wanting Palestinian
civilians to die because it would not be
useful if that's what they
believe when the ID was using those
human Shields how many uh how many
Muslims were killed how many um
Palestinians were killed when they were
this is the last question I think there
was one incident of somebody getting
killed correct yes you know
why you know why because Palestinians
don't want to shoot their own people
that's why it's interesting so the the
IDE idea behind that was when they were
engaged in this um when they were
clearing out houses the idea was is that
if a bunch of IDF should soldiers show
up and start banging on your door it's
going to lead to some sort of armed
conflict so what the IDF started to do
when they houses is no what the idea
started to do when they were approaching
houses if there were people in the
neighborhood of walking by they would
say like hey do you want to walk up and
do you want knock on the store and talk
to this guy because if you go in and you
talk not with a gun that's not you want
hand me your wallet there's a reason why
yeah you can laugh but the funny this is
like this is the conflict because you
laugh now more people probably die
because that policy is gone because the
way that you phrase it is oh they held a
gun to their head a human shield which I
think did happen one time but there's a
reason why when you talk about policy
only one person ever died doing it it's
because it because there a safer way to
bring people out of the home in order to
have like you have an actual policy go
knock the door rather the idea is B
defending human
shield that's not a human shield a human
sh
shielding the other people no it was to
Shield the the IDF doesn't need Shields
from the Palestinians of the West Bank
the military thinks it's human Shields
but you don't the Supreme Court ruled
against it because they felt like the um
the ability for them to truly consent
the Palestinians to truly consent to
Knocking on a door was compromised first
it was nonenal eventually Israel said
that okay
fine you time I want because Omar got a
good chunk of time to give final
thoughts so I want to make sure that you
get this yeah I got you yeah so there's
just a refusal on one side well really
on both sides we don't have any crazy
Ultra zist here except I guess maybe me
but generally there's refusal on both
sides to acknowledge the truths of the
other side with the with the blockade
the reason why the blockade exists is
because Israel is evil Hamas doesn't
actually do anything to induce civilians
to be killed um Israeli people Jewish
people don't have any reasonable fears
of Hamas that's why earlier when I asked
if Hamas was in charge of Israel uh and
if the Jews lived in the Gaza Strip do
we think the treatment would be the same
or worse or better and we couldn't even
get an answer there because the obvious
answer is Hamas probably engage in a
genocidal campaign to kill every actual
genocidal campaign not one where the
people are on the verge of starvation
for 25 years while the population
increases fivefold okay so this this
refusal to acknowledge like basic facts
of history or the fact that the
complication is or the the conflict
itself is really complicated this goes
back decades in terms of how people are
disagreeing over who owns what piece of
land or or who has a right to to to live
in what place or whether or not they're
living under aparte or what a final
solution should look like the fact that
people are incapable of acknowledging
both parts of the of the sides of this
conflict makes it so that when people
are encouraging their particular side
there will never be a resolution if you
are a Palestinian and you believe that
today you are being subjected to
genocide and apartheid why in the
would you ever negotiate with Israel for
and an and thing and and I think both of
you said to yourselves the International
Community needs to step in and solve
this problem and as long as Palestinians
think that there's never going to be a
drive there to actually reach any
lasting solution because why would you
if we're being genocided we're being
aparted we live in open air prisons and
contion we're not going to figure the
problem out somebody's going to come
save us and as long as that is the
mentality that is given to the
Palestinian people they will continue to
fight or they they could where are all
of the and this is funny too you can see
so many Maps a minute yeah you can see
so many maps that are published from
negotiations between Palestinian
negotiators and Israeli negotiators all
of them are from the Israeli side there
has never been a deal on the table where
Palestinians said this is what we want
and then Israel didn't accept it's never
been the case that that was it
negotiators have been horrible kusher
talked about a
bus every single person talk about erat
about a bus the negotiations can never
be made because there is no negotiating
on the Palestinian side and that's what
we see today internationally yeah that's
just an encouragement to keep fighting
and fighting and fighting until
eventually your your one state from
River to se so we started this by saying
we were not going to solve the problem
and I think that proved to be
correct we did not solve the problem but
what we did say we wanted to do was
bring some more clarity about the
contrast on both sides and I do think
Ryan that we saw a lot of contrast and a
lot more clarity in the contrast just by
flushing some of this out so sincerely
yeah sincerely want to thank both both
of you because this is uh not always an
easy thing to do and we all are still
here so on that note Ryan any final
thoughts no no final thoughts I'll just
leave it at that because if I say
anything it's just
gonna The Nest right back up and we've
all got things we got to do right uh
that's right uh so breakingpoints decom
to subscribe uh we will be here remember
now on Fridays in addition to Wednesdays
thank you Stephen thank you Omar hey
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